[A] House Equalius

"House Equalius" is a noble family which holds dominion over the county of southern Elwynn. The current Count is Feodor Equalius (Full name: Count Feodor De'Polybius Tricostan Equalius )

The guild is predominatly composed of two factions; The family and the employees (This would cover roles such as guards/servants/soldiers and so on [See ranks: Below])

The count is roleplayed as if a subject to Marshal Dughan (elected ruler of Elwynn) - this means the county have some measure of sovereignty so far as Marshal Dughan or ultimately the king, or his representants, does not intervene (In this instance - the player controlled [Kings]Council).

Our roleplay is primarily located in the county, though we do spend a fair bit of time mingling in Stormwind as well. Our events can involve anything from internal family drama (Currently the daughter of the Count have a secret relationship with the captain of the guard) and hosting lavish parties - to fighting off unwelcome elements within the county (which can be anything from gnolls and criminals to outright enemies of the alliance).

We use Westbrook Garrison in Elwynn Forest to represent our "Estate" - This is what the Estate would look like IC "http://www.flickr.com/photos/maorlando/3941598991/" [Without the gardening]

The borders of our county stop just short of Goldshire to the north, and encompass both the Maclure Vineyards and the Stonefield farm to the east


Ranks:

Family
Count - Supreme authorithy in the county
Lord - Family member who hold dominion over a fiefdom within the county (only one member will hold this rank)
Knight - Family member who have been knighted by the King (not the Count)
Close relative - Immediate family member (brother, son, father, cousin)
Distant relative - Kinsman (Grandfathers brother etc.)

Noble - A noble that is not related to house Equalius

Employees
Guard Captain - Superior in the household guard
Guard/soldier - Member of the household guard
- Guard Seargent
- Guard Corporal
- Guard Private
- Guard Recruit
Contractor - Retainer who is not required to wear the house colors
Servant - Covers anything from cook to regular servant

The majority of the guild is, and will continue to be, employees


Brief history:

The Equalius bloodline is ancient, and has roots as far back as Lady Varia Wrynn, whose maiden name (according to our guildlore) was in fact Equalius.
The county would have been in Equalius hands during the decimation of Stormwind - at the time of the first war. It would have been bought back in the aftermath of the Second war - and would thus have remained Equalius land until today.
Historically house Equalius has always had such traits as patriotism attributed to it - and generally considers itself very loyal to the King. Rumors and conspiracy theories about the family would include a recurring accusation that the most important family members, meet in secret to eat human flesh and attempt to chart a course of increasing influence for the dynasty.


Future plans [As in 6 months+]:

- We would like to represent Eastvale Logging Camp and the surrounding environs under the dominion of a Lord, who would be subject to the count as well.
- We would like to represent the Tower of Azora within the bounds of the Estate, to be ministered by a resident mage/wizard, who would be a subject as well.

If this were to happen - we would use the buildings to represent land within our county - meaning we wont control all of Elwynn - our borders are outlined above


Contact info

If you would like to join or have questions in general, whisper one of these: Tethos - Kimuz - Mayweather


Things you should know before joining:

We do accept all classes and races - however: The count is known to dislike the undead intensely, and while they may be allowed in the household under command of his cousin, Halric, it is under sufferance.

A lot of our RP involves rolling

We put alot of effort into making the RP as realistic as possible, - that means, if you would like to join and your not a DK:

You can get scared
You can feel pain
You can fail
You do fear death
You dont have endless amounts of gold (unless your the count )
You dont wield imba magic weapons
You dont wield weapons the size of horses

Upon close examination you'll come to realize that WoW isn't a feudal system, there are no nobility that 'own' land. Everything is state controlled, with elected mayors governing townships, Marshals of a centralized army helping protect them and soldiers from the state army doing the grunt work.

There's private enterprises, much like what we have today, but everything at the end of the day belongs to the 'King'.

Furthermore, your goals themselves. You want to directly control land that's in-game, that's not the best approach to anything really. Just use those land marks to represent fictional territory that doesn't exist - which will avoid 'claiming' half of Elwynn Forest because there was nobody to actually RP against when you decided you wanted to claim these places.

Tethos wrote:We are aware that Elwynn forest is currently governed by elected ruler Marshal Dughan - however we do not include this in our RP. That is to say unless there is strong objections voiced by the community on this page.

Worrying really, you're ready to disregard lore unless somebody [and I guess that's me this time] points it out.

Tethos wrote:The borders of our county stop just short of Goldshire to the north, and encompass both the Maclure Vineyards and the Stonefield farm to the east

Do you know why these places are called what are they called [to further reinforce the point of there being no feudal system?] Because the farmers [private entrepreneurs, not noble men] are the ones who own them and pay their taxes to the state.

Tethos wrote:This means the county have soverignty so far as the king, or his representants, does not directly intervene (In this instance - the player controlled [Kings]Council).

In this scenario [and I've been in this position before myself on Goodwyn] the Council of Stormwind have full say in all of the land [as long as the laws remain obeyed]. Furthermore, in an actual feudal system, you are a vassal of your King and therefore subject to him, you can't declare that his representatives can't intervene when in a feudal hierarchy the King does what he wants.

This concept is massively flawed and I advise you to revise it. Good luck.

Tethos wrote:We are aware that Elwynn forest is currently governed by elected ruler Marshal Dughan - however we do not include this in our RP. That is to say unless there is strong objections voiced by the community on this page.

Couldn't resist...

Spoiler:

Good luck trying to assert your authority over people. It's going to be tough getting everyone to go along with such a heavy self-insertion, especially with the Westbrook Garrison being used often by guard and military guilds.

Cerik Ironforge wrote:This concept is massively flawed and I advise you to revise it. Good luck.

Not any more flawed the communist Dwarves. Well-- Okay, maybe just as flawed.

erwtenpeller wrote:Not any more flawed the communist Dwarves. Well-- Okay, maybe just as flawed.

Was thinking the same thing Erwt.

But yes towards the post, it would be best to use an area of land and pretend it is something else icly, your concept is fine, always nice to have another noble house around, but considering your future goals, you would end up owning half of Elwynn. Something you're going to have a very hard time making people respect/accept oocly and icly.

I have updated the post, such that we are now subjects to Marshal Dughan as well. I have furthermore put in "represent" instead of "include" to avoid misconceptions about our motives - we do not want to control half of Elwynn... We want to use the facilities it presents, the buildings in particular.

Cerik Ironforge wrote:Upon close examination you'll come to realize that WoW isn't a feudal system, there are no nobility that 'own' land.

Tirion Fordring was lord of the alliance principality of Hearthglenn - subject to Saidan Dathrohan, lord commander of the region - who were in turn subject to King Terenas [Source - Of Blood and Honor by Chris Metzen]

There is nobles in Stormwind keep - i do believe they own land - i do agree that ultimately they are subject to elected rulers such as Marshal Dughan - i do also believe they enjoy a great deal of soverignity on these lands, as is custom for the noble class. - If you are trying to make the point that none of the nobles in Stormwind keep own land and do not recieve certain benefits in relation to their social status - then i simply disagree. Lots of NPC's in wow have titles such as lord and baron, there is even counts and dukes - i do not think it is a stretch to play a noble house that owns land.

Cerik Ironforge wrote:. Furthermore, in an actual feudal system, you are a vassal of your King and therefore subject to him, you can't declare that his representatives can't intervene when in a feudal hierarchy the King does what he wants.

I really think you should read what you quote more carefully... the point is excactly that we are subjects to the king... and the council for that matter... Ill link what you quoted and you can judge for yourself.

Tethos wrote:This means the county have soverignty so far as the king, or his representants, does not directly intervene (In this instance - the player controlled [Kings]Council).

erwtenpeller wrote:Good luck trying to assert your authority over people. It's going to be tough getting everyone to go along with such a heavy self-insertion, especially with the Westbrook Garrison being used often by guard and military guilds.

I think we have been there for about 1-2 months at least, no one have tried to use it - prior to us being there i have never seen or heard of anyone using it. So it is definatly not "often". Furthermore i have reached out to Disciples and asked for permission, i have tried to reach shields, but havent been able to catch any officers online, i know its not a problem with WT... as for Regiment i have discussed the idea with at least one officer as far as i remember.

Also i should like to add that it will probably be more fun to use the garrison if there is other RP'ers around to serve you - as i said we are subjects to the king, so guilds that are on good terms with the alliance is more than welcome to use it... in fact i would encourage people to use it, i think it would be great fun. I specifically chose a picture that resembles the "original" for this purpose.

Tethos wrote:Tirion Fordring was lord of the alliance principality of Hearthglenn - subject to Saidan Dathrohan, lord commander of the region - who were in turn subject to King Terenas

Kingdom of Stormwind isn't the Kingdom of Lordaeron.

Tethos wrote: i do also believe they enjoy a great deal of soverignity on these lands, as is custom for the noble class.

Based on what evidence? I don't see anything to suggest that at all. The nobles are more like the elite of the population whom sit on all the money and 'own' (like rich corporations in the modern era) own vast amounts of land and profiteer of, at the end of the day the state owns everything.

Tethos wrote: If you are trying to make the point that none of the nobles in Stormwind keep own land and do not recieve certain benefits in relation to their social status

No, I'm making the point that the Kingdom of Stormwind isn't a feudal system where the noble owns a fiefdom and pays a tax to the King, supporting him with levies, knights and other units during war-time. I'm making the point that the nobles are just bumped up business with an aristocracy behind them, akin to the House of Lords in the UK.

Tethos wrote:Lots of NPC's in wow have titles such as lord and baron, there is even counts and dukes - i do not think it is a stretch to play a noble house that owns land.

I think there's one Count and one Duke, not entirely sure about Barons. It's a stretch and it goes against the socio-economic system of Stormwind.

Tethos wrote:I really think you should read what you quote more carefully... the point is excactly that we are subjects to the king... and the council for that matter... Ill link what you quoted and you can judge for yourself.

Your quote directly states that the King's representatives [player controlled Council] does NOT intervene, re-read your own quote Tethos.

I feel like you've pretty much ignored half of what I said without backing any of your opinions up. Fly around the Kingdom of Stormwind and see the social make up of the Kingdom.

Land is divided among farmers who obviously pay a tax to the state. Provinces are governed by elected mayors (akin to governors in the US, whom govern in the name of the King). There are no nobles with 'bannermen' there is nothing to suggest or imply that the Kingdom of Stormwind is any form of feudal system at this point in time.

The Kingdom of Stormwind closely resembles the UK in the 17/18th century [except the King can still act unilaterally and has more power] but in the points that the state itself is rather heavily centralized and that the nobility do not hold the power in the shape or form they used to.

Now, here's an alternative as to what is a 'sound' and far lore-friendlier approach to roleplaying a noble in an atmosphere such as the one of the Kingdom of Stormwind;

You're a rich land owner, but you don't have any subjects, you have employees. You don't use in-game locations and claim them for yourself, you use places such as that Vineyard and Farm to represent the areas that you "own" but they aren't the ones directly in-game, they can still be in Southern Elwynn of course.

You have your own personal retainers, a guard, whatever else, butlers servants, [depending on how rich you are IC] - but it's more likely you'd spend most of your time in Stormwind, securing contract deals from the government, working on your position and attempting to strengthen yourself in the House of Nobles [which is an advisory body, seeing as the King essentially does what he wants at the end of the day and you are all there to merely implement his will].

Again I repeat, there is no lore to back up that Stormwind is any way a place to RP out Game of Thrones [unfortunately, as I actually prefer the Westeros/Feudal setting more myself]. Go by what the game is really, it's not that vast of a difference but you'll find that the current system has more emphasis on a small entourage of well trained/disciplined followers rather than your own fiefdom [as well as allowing you to focus on political roleplay that would be centralized upon Stormwind].

When I roleplayed [House of Goodwyn] I made the mistake of implementing a feudal approach as well, after reading into the system [I study into things I RP] I discovered that I had done it completely wrong and that was among many reasons I put the concept aside.

Good luck.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] For the baron thing. Some more things probably in the short story Blood of our Fathers.

But it's a bit unclear I guess at what they exaclty own at the moment, but then again i'm not that deep into this. Though i like the thinking posted by people here.

"We are tired of Alliance wars depleting our gold and our blood. Reckless adventuring and personal vendettas only undermine our chances for peace and prosperity!"

Kinda shows they got to pay for the war and stuff.

Otherwise i'm not up for research. I'd be good to have more things in Elwynn, but you'll have to take careful steps. One thing to note is Elwynn is a lot bigger in lore so owning a bit part of it as seen in game means a HUGE factor in lore. So maybe just note "souther part of / whatever". Then mentioning too many actual places as a tip.

OTHERWISE: I advise you look up this thread, it might intrest you

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Plus you might see how others aproached this hope it brings some RP to Elwynn.

I roleplay several characters, both within this House and not, and as far as I am able to determine there is no issue with the concept voiced by any of those we have roleplayed with. It is sound and managed fairly, with a variety of interactions possible, and events devised inventively utilising the /roll 100 system.

The use of the keep is well known and as far as I am aware uncontested. Previous to our occupancy it had been used for a period of time by another 'noble house' guild, although in character we are of course representing it as a different building to that.

Cerik wrote:You're a rich land owner, but you don't have any subjects, you have employees. You don't use in-game locations and claim them for yourself, you use places such as that Vineyard and Farm to represent the areas that you "own" but they aren't the ones directly in-game, they can still be in Southern Elwynn of course.

You have your own personal retainers, a guard, whatever else, butlers servants, [depending on how rich you are IC] - but it's more likely you'd spend most of your time in Stormwind, securing contract deals from the government, working on your position and attempting to strengthen yourself in the House of Nobles [which is an advisory body, seeing as the King essentially does what he wants at the end of the day and you are all there to merely implement his will].

This entire section is largely irrelevant as this paraphrases the kind of roleplay we do, as indeed does much of your commentary, in an accusatory fashion that seems quite at odds with the way I am sure we would all like to see these forums used. It is clear to me that you, like many other people I have met, assume that each person here is able to phrase the English language perfectly. Let me tell you that this is not the case. For the vast majority of my friends, English is not their first language, and this can mean it is difficult to use entirely correct spelling, grammar and phraseology. I believe this has happened here, as the ideas outlined by Tethos above are, when described at length, not in the least at odds with what you seem to feel we 'should' be doing, rendering many of your arguments null and void.

First of all id rather do RP than be your debate partner, Cerik.

The post have been changed, where i thought your arguments had merit - namely objecting to us ignoring Marshal Dughan (which we did ask for community opinion on) - and a better description of our motives regarding buildings in Elwynn. The text is also less dogmatic now, i have put in "measurement of soverignty" as opposed to us being 100% sovereign in a feudal context. I put in "represent" instead of "include" with respect to the buildings... among other small changes.

A argument i do not think have merit is this notion that "its a stretch for nobles to own land", that was your main point, and i adressed it - i disagree with it.

Before i delve into lore-sources that support my claim, id like to respond to this concept of yours that fiefdoms and democracy cant co-exist. Its very likely it couldent in England, i couldent say. What i can say is that it did in post-republic Rome:

In post-republic Rome you had a all powerful emperor - much like you do in Stormwind.
Below the emperor was the senate - romes legislative body (a senatorial position could only be held by nobles btw) - this is almost a excact equivalent to the current legislative body in Stormwind - Aka. The council of nobles
Administrative positions were generally democraticly elected (Governors, mayors etc.) - Again, much like the Kingdom of Stormwind

Now i am not so arrogant that i think i know the exact intentions of Blizzard with regards to the powerstructure of Stormwind. All i can say is: that a powerful aristocracy and democracy can co-exist, and that similar situations in history do support the fact that nobles can own lands in a medieval "democracy".

-

As for lore-sources let me make a few points.

First of all, even if you look exclusively at the Kingdom of Stormwind, the amount of nobles is quite extensive. - ill list those i have been able to find:

1. Lord Ello Ebonlocke - In lands of conflict, p. 47 there is no mention of him being a mayor, however he still have the title "lord" - what does this mean? Most likely that he was a lord, prior to becoming mayor, the indication being that he held lordship over "something" prior to his election as mayor - my bet is that it was a fiefdom.

2. Lord Anduin Lothar. - Was Lord prior to becoming regent - again most likely lord over a fiefdom.

3. Lord Prestor - bit of a stretch yes, a Lord nonetheless.

4. Lord Baurles K. Wishock

5. Count Remington Ridgewell - holding the title "Count" indicates he precides over a county... It is very unlikely that he is a "refugee" from the north as he is a member of the house of nobles - in other words - a Stormwind noble.

(there is probably more nobles than this but this is what i could come up with)

Now what does blizzard think of nobles? and their authorithy? - in lands of conflict p. 172 - alterac nobles is described like this: "The trouble with the Syndicate is that it is primarily made up of egotistical, high-born nobles, with lands, farms, citizens..." Also i should like to add that the leading figures in the Syndicate are all lords - thus supporting the idea of lordship being a "landholding title"

I know its a different region - however it does give you a indication on how blizzard define the terms "noble" and a "lord".

Oh man, oh man, oh man.

Tethos;

First of all id rather do RP than be your debate partner, Cerik.

Keep going that way, its the sane, productive way.

Goodluck with the guild, i hope you get out of it what you want.

Lol hypocrisy:

TBH Cerik Rps dwarves as a stalinist state with secret police and gulags....nitpicking very minor details over how much influence/what powers a noble in WoW has is pretty much pointing out a splinter in your brother's eye and missing the plank in your own.

Less nitpicking/bitching more rp= good.

Welcome to Defias Tethos. Best of luck and a pinch of wisdom...

Bitches be crazy.

That is all.

Enjoy.:

Now onto your response Tethos, which I will respond to point by point!

Tethos wrote:The post have been changed, where i thought your arguments had merit - namely objecting to us ignoring Marshal Dughan (which we did ask for community opinion on) - and a better description of our motives regarding buildings in Elwynn. The text is also less dogmatic now, i have put in "measurement of soverignty" as opposed to us being 100% sovereign in a feudal context. I put in "represent" instead of "include" with respect to the buildings... among other small changes.

So essentially you changed the text according to presented critique and then decided to write a post attacking the points I made pre-edit? Well, that's nice to know. Allow me to re-modify every single post I've made to make myself look like the good guy too, smart, but, you should of at least concealed that fact.

Tethos wrote:In post-republic Rome you had a all powerful emperor - much like you do in Stormwind.
Below the emperor was the senate - romes legislative body (a senatorial position could only be held by nobles btw) - this is almost a excact equivalent to the current legislative body in Stormwind - Aka. The council of nobles
Administrative positions were generally democraticly elected (Governors, mayors etc.) - Again, much like the Kingdom of Stormwind

Senatorial positions could be held by peasants as well, you just had to be wealthy [to ensure you could fulfill electorate promises], that's inaccurate point number one.

The Council of Nobles is an advisory body with unknown powers due to either poor/vague lore-writing. Administrative regions in Rome didn't have elected officials. Governors and Legates were appointed after serving their time as a Senator and showing experience and/or other senior positions within Rome.

You have two key flaws in your comparison to Rome and Stormwind.

1) The aristocracy didn't hold Rome in a choke-hold, [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] the peasantry (sometimes violently fought back to regain rights, and they won!). In Rome, furthermore, the successful Emperor or 'First Citizen' [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] increased the positions of the 'lower class' and did not support the rivalry between the Patricians and Plebeians, at all. He was seen as one of the greatest if not the greatest Emperor's of Rome.

2) Governors (i.e the rulers of provinces) were appointed by the Senate after they served either as a Senator (mostly as a Senator) or a Legate / Military Tribune (which most of the time became Senators unless they fell out of favor).

Mayors in WoW are democratically elected and share authority with the Marshal, whom is the appointed figure.

Tethos wrote:Now i am not so arrogant that i think i know the exact intentions of Blizzard with regards to the powerstructure of Stormwind. All i can say is: that a powerful aristocracy and democracy can co-exist, and that similar situations in history do support the fact that nobles can own lands in a medieval "democracy".

I'm amused by your attempt to twist my words, you've been capable thus far to respond to each point so I'm not going to take in the post above yours about 'not being able to comprehend English' or whatever excuse is being used to avoid responding to each point.

I said that the Kingdom of Stormwind is not a feudal society, and it isn't. Never did I write anywhere that the aristocracy can't own land, they can "own" land, but that land at the end of the day belongs to the State, much like it does in our IRL societies and in 18th century Great Britain. To add to that, powerful aristocracies tend to crush or attempt to crush democracy, history is on my side in this one in practically every single young nation from the 11th century and on-wards until being a noble stopped being anything besides being exceedingly wealthy (just like in WoW).

Tethos wrote:1. Lord Ello Ebonlocke - In lands of conflict, p. 47 there is no mention of him being a mayor, however he still have the title "lord" - what does this mean? Most likely that he was a lord, prior to becoming mayor, the indication being that he held lordship over "something" prior to his election as mayor - my bet is that it was a fiefdom.

He's the Mayor of the city - no doubt being a noble with his own retainers and money helped him become Mayor [ever watched the 'elections' scene in Gangs of New York, force and money can achieve any vote!]. There is no further evidence to back up the rest of your point, so I'll give you your own quote in return.

Tethos wrote:Now i am not so arrogant that i think i know the exact intentions of Blizzard with regards to the powerstructure of Stormwind.

Yet that's what you are doing, and worse yet, you are guessing without any suggestions when Lakeshire [for example] clearly has a democratic system that has nothing to do with the aristocracy and an example of how a Mayor [governing individual] is elected.

Tethos wrote:2. Lord Anduin Lothar. - Was Lord prior to becoming regent - again most likely lord over a fiefdom.

How do you come to the conclusion that he was Lord of most likely a fiefdom? Most of the nobility in the UK has no 'land' or 'subjects' yet still hold titles. This is how Stormwind is, titles that are starting to become meaningless with wealth their only advantage.

Tethos wrote:5. Count Remington Ridgewell - holding the title "Count" indicates he precides over a county... It is very unlikely that he is a "refugee" from the north as he is a member of the house of nobles - in other words - a Stormwind noble.

Okay, if you claim he is presiding over a county, please show me the county in the lore. It is more likely [as I have indicated in above posts] that Count Remington Ridgwell is among those wealthy nobility who now spend most of their time in Stormwind playing politics against each other in the House of Nobles, they 'rent out' or 'sell' land which ultimately belongs to the Kingdom of Stormwind i.e the state itself. Further to that, can you find any Baronies / Counties in-game in the Kingdom of Stormwind?

Tethos wrote:I know its a different region - however it does give you a indication on how blizzard define the terms "noble" and a "lord".

Yes, but in a different region. It's like comparing the King of the UK during America's war of independence to President Washington, they are two vastly and different systems [why is it so absurd for World of Warcraft to have such as well?]

I realize you may find this as some sort of personal attack, but I've written to you why this concept is flawed and why you are wrong, if you wish to of course stoop low enough to make it personal then feel free to do so chap!

Tethos wrote:What i can say is that it did in post-republic Rome:

In post-republic Rome you had a all powerful emperor - much like you do in Stormwind.
Below the emperor was the senate - romes legislative body (a senatorial position could only be held by nobles btw) - this is almost a excact equivalent to the current legislative body in Stormwind - Aka. The council of nobles
Administrative positions were generally democraticly elected (Governors, mayors etc.) - Again, much like the Kingdom of Stormwind

As the local Rome-obsessed member of this forum I do feel that I need to point something out.

It's not quite correct to consider the emperor during the principate to be all-powerful. The power of the emperor stemmed from a collection of legal rights granted to him by the Senate. In time these would expand to ensure the emperor would become even more powerful. An obvious example is the fact that Augustus could not simply expel anyone from the Senate without also holding the office of censor (which he did not hold in perpetuity), only after Domitian held the office from 84/85 until he died do we see a change. His successors did not formally assume the office of censor, but they did tacitly retain its power. I also recall, and I hope my memory does not fail me on this point, that during the Byzantine age (when the principate had long since been replaced by the dominate) the power of the emperor was also not fully absolute. I believe Ostrogorsky made the point that the enlargement of the emperor's power was an ongoing development during that era.

It's broadly correct to state that, officially, the senate was Rome's legislative body during the principate (at least, after Augustus had transferred those authorities from the assemblies and to the senate). However, I can't quite agree with your statement that a senatorial position could only be held by the nobility. It is true that only a person from the senatorial order (membership of this order was dependent on personal integrity, the fulfillment of a military term of service, and the possession of sufficient property) could stand for senatorial office (such as quaestor and consul), but Augustus reserved for himself the right to grant the laticlave to young men of non-senatorial birth so as to allow them to stand for one of the minor offices known as the vigintivirate, which would in turn qualify them to stand for the office of quaestor.

I'd also note that the governor of a Roman province tended to be the pro-consul. The pro-consul was not democratically elected. The senate decided upon the appointment of pro-consuls. With regards to mayors I'm not quite sure, but I do know that Rome tended to leave existing political structures intact or transfer the Roman political structure to newly conquered settlements. If the latter was the institution of a carbon-copy of the Roman system then it can't really be called democratic.


All that said, best of luck with your guild :-)

I find it very sad and somewhat pathetic, Cerik, that you must rely upon complaining about and twisting the words of others to try and make yourself appear to have points in what is by now a stupid and pointless discussion that long ago lost track of the original point at hand in favour of childish cries that any critical thinker would see through in an instant. I am sure we would all appreciate a mature discussion ending in a mutually acceptable conclusion.

Tethos is a cool dude and a fun & fair RPer, always nice to have new guilds about, hope it works out for you!

Celrik wrote:So essentially you changed the text according to presented critique and then decided to write a post attacking the points I made pre-edit? Well, that's nice to know. Allow me to re-modify every single post I've made to make myself look like the good guy too, smart, but, you should of at least concealed that fact.

I clearly stated the post was updated in my first reply to you (In fact it was the first sentence.)... Judge for yourself if you want:

by Tethos on Sun Oct 20, 2013

Tethos wrote: I have updated the post, such that we are now subjects to Marshal Dughan as well. I have furthermore put in "represent" instead of "include" to avoid misconceptions about our motives - we do not want to control half of Elwynn... We want to use the facilities it presents, the buildings in particular.

I'd hardly call that "concealing", and stop blowing things out of propertions "putting in a extra layer of "liege"" and changing 2 words and some grammatics - is not "re-modifying" the entire post

Celrik wrote:The Council of Nobles is an advisory body with unknown powers due to either poor/vague lore-writing.

No matter how you slice it, it pocesses executive power - aka. it governs Stormwind. If you think this is wrong or "vague" i suggest you take it up on the discussion tab on the various wow-wiki sites.

A bit unrelated but in the short-story Siegmund linked, Blood of our Fathers, it is quite clear the King finds "governing" pretty boring, thus its safe to assume the House of Nobles have pretty wide authorithy as long as the king gets his way

Celrik wrote:Never did I write anywhere that the aristocracy can't own land, they can "own" land

My comment and your response below:

Tethos wrote:Lots of NPC's in wow have titles such as lord and baron, there is even counts and dukes - i do not think it is a stretch to play a noble house that owns land

Celrik wrote:I think there's one Count and one Duke, not entirely sure about Barons. It's a stretch and it goes against the socio-economic system of Stormwind.

What do you want me to say?

Celrik wrote:There is no further evidence to back up the rest of your point... -  you are guessing without any suggestions

- I repeat "lands of conflict, p. 47"...
- Thats my suggestion, he was a lord prior to becoming mayor
- I ask the question, lord over what? -
- To answer that question i look in lore-sources
- What does blizzard say about lords?
- Lands of conflict p. 172 describing Alterac lords: The trouble with the Syndicate is that it is primarily made up of egotistical, high-born nobles, with lands, farms, citizens...
- This suggests Blizzards definition of a lord is that they hold land, farms, citizens, (holding citizens is by definition holding subjects)
- Thus my suggestion - that Lord Ello Ebonlocke held land, or rather a fiefdom, prior to becoming mayor.
- If you disagree thats fine, but dont tell me i am guessing out of the blue with no suggestions at all, i think i presented a good amount of lore sources to back up my argument.

Celrik wrote:How do you come to the conclusion that he was Lord of most likely a fiefdom?

I think the most likely scenario is that he was lord over a fiefdom, first of all because of the reasons mentioned above - second, this is what you normally associate with a lord in a "fantasy universe", just think of Game of thrones, Warhammer, LOTR? Also think of it like this - you have a lot of lords in wow that hold land - have you seen any lords that just hold the title for "prestige"? - i know there is lots of charectars without enough detail to determine what land they hold, but is there any lord in lore that holds the title specifically as a "honorary title"?

Celrik wrote:Okay, if you claim he is presiding over a county, please show me the county in the lore.

I cant do that, and i cant find any in alterac either - however we know for a fact they held land, farms, citizens.. in other words they were "feudal" lords, hence "citizens" would be subjects.

What your presenting is a logical fallacy, the burden of proof is not on me to show that there is a county - this is indicated by the title of Ridgewell, he is a count. You cant put negative limitations on RP, especially in a world that is dictated by "game-design". Its like saying "can you please show me where in lore the Stormwind council (not the house of nobles) takes petitions from citizens... or where in lore the council of three hammers have a senator of justice?" The burden of proof is on you to show that the indication is wrong, not the other way around. And no i do not think your superficial speculations on the socio-economic state of Stormwinds powerstructure is sufficient to defy the fact that a count precides over a county, its a question of game-design and i think you know it...

Just for clarification i think the Stormwind Council does a great job

Celrik wrote:Yes, but in a different region. It's like comparing the King of the UK during America's war of independence to President Washington,

No its like comparing texas and florida. "same universe - same "federation" (pre-third war). Furthermore what im really getting at here is the "intent" of Blizzard, as our loremaker. The same way a lawyer would approach contradictory and/or "vague" law IRL... for example: "how Blizzard(parlament) define different words".

Celrik wrote:I realize you may find this as some sort of personal attack, but I've written to you why this concept is flawed and why you are wrong, if you wish to of course stoop low enough to make it personal then feel free to do so chap!

So, basicly my choises are to accept your rather superficial accusations against my guild, or its personal?...

-

To round up - take a look at this link [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] its a american wow-rp site, i count 14 dukes/barons/lords/counts combined, that by the way take the concept way beyond what i am proposing.

Anyway it pains me the post have become this long, i have adressed your points; "point by point" as you asked, and in great detail too. I'll let you have the last word, unless its something completely absurd, and with regards to rome ill respond below.

With regards to Rome, its somewhat unrelated so ill attempt to be brief

Antistia wrote:It's not quite correct to consider the emperor during the principate to be all-powerful.

In post-republic rome, that is lets say the first 10 emperors (i am sure you can find someone who wasent, but rome in its "prime"), i'd say they were pretty much all-powerful, i dont think they felt any limitations what so ever, legally or practically. But i suppose its really a question of how you define "all-powerful". The emperor was definatly not surpassed by anyone in power.

Celrik wrote:The aristocracy didn't hold Rome in a choke-hold...

I never suggested that they did

Celrik wrote:Senatorial positions could be held by peasants as well, you just had to be wealthy [to ensure you could fulfill electorate promises], that's inaccurate point number one.

Depends on what period your speaking of - in ancient rome it could only be held by nobles, but yes in Augustus time, other people could hold the position as well. However, no matter how you slice and dice it, the senate was "de-facto" the "nobilities" institution, by any historical measurement, which was the point of my comparisson.

Celrik wrote:Governors (i.e the rulers of provinces) were appointed by the Senate

Correct.

-

In any event these are more "technical" points, i do think the comparisson holds water.

Cerik Ironforge wrote:

Enjoy.:

Spoiler:

I do enjoy seeing when criticism is taken into account, and then you're being accused of "editing".

Guys... This is getting really sad. Let each-other play the game, will you?

You're both wrong, anyway.

Cerik Ironforge wrote:

Enjoy.:

To be blunt your personal attacks aside (LUL STOOPID ARTISTS) you only prove my point with every post you make. This is a guild advert post and you are relentlessly nitpicking despite your own very dodgy versions of lore.
Considering you call me stupid on several occasions it's remarkable how bad your reading comprehension was; my point was this is a guild advert, not a place to relentlessly nitpick, ESPECIALLY when you take a very eh...wierd view of lore that's not much to do with Blizzard or Wow. It's certainly put me and lots of others off from playing dwarves in the past and present because TTH is the main 'dwarf' guild and is so different from in-game dwarves. You say in other threads that it's 'nothing like' a Marxist state, or a communist state, or whatever, but continue to use language and imagery from these regimes to advertise it, and then take the piss when people think that is what it is? In your own words

"So the people who have little to no brain cells on DefiasRP can go crazy over it.

Can you not see how amusing it is?"

(from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

To be frank a mod needs to come and prune the slagging matches out (this included). My initial remark was just to pre-warn Tethos of Ephitos' usual behaviour which he continued to display as per usual. I'm replying mostly because of the personal attacks from Eph.

All this bullshit set aside this is a nice guild. I like stumbling upon them, especially when it ends up in situations where I can confuse them. I'll just give you a good example of random stuff that happens with this guild as DM events can spin out of control and random shit can happen.

Like my character was with them to clear out some bandits in Westfall but something clicked and now they think he is dead(Not sure on the status of that), but instead he has three kids to feed now which all lost their parents in the raid on the bandits. I find these twists delightful. Hopefully I'll come around on alts every now and again, cant really get that servant mentality I need for any of my alts wanting to join the guard as I never base my chars on liking mass slaughter.

I'm always a bit on the edge about nobles but as far as I've seen this has been pulled off great. Thats my two cents.

Kittrina wrote:
To be blunt your personal attacks aside (LUL STOOPID ARTISTS) you only prove my point with every post you make. This is a guild advert post and you are relentlessly nitpicking despite your own very dodgy versions of lore.
Considering you call me stupid on several occasions it's remarkable how bad your reading comprehension was; my point was this is a guild advert, not a place to relentlessly nitpick, ESPECIALLY when you take a very eh...wierd view of lore that's not much to do with Blizzard or Wow. It's certainly put me and lots of others off from playing dwarves in the past and present because TTH is the main 'dwarf' guild and is so different from in-game dwarves. You say in other threads that it's 'nothing like' a Marxist state, or a communist state, or whatever, but continue to use language and imagery from these regimes to advertise it, and then take the piss when people think that is what it is? In your own words

"So the people who have little to no brain cells on DefiasRP can go crazy over it.

Can you not see how amusing it is?"

(from [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

To be frank a mod needs to come and prune the slagging matches out (this included). My initial remark was just to pre-warn Tethos of Ephitos' usual behaviour which he continued to display as per usual. I'm replying mostly because of the personal attacks from Eph.

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Honestly, Eph, Cerik, whatever. Your tone and demeanour come across as rude, arrogant, and condescending. Any validity to your post is washed away in waves of cuntish comments. I don't normally post in threads when they go to shit, so I apologize to the host of the thread for carrying on the shit wave. But I'd suggest you reel it back a notch Eph. The way you speak to people makes you seem like an utter prick, even by Defias forums standards.

Edit : Wrote apologize wrong. Like a winner.

I really hope that the general public of DefiasRP do not think that every member and faction of TTH is a pro-stalinist RP group. We've got some issues in the guild atm and I would not wish the actions of the minority to stain the image of the guild.