Re: Ability Affects on a Death Knight

by **Amaryl** Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:48 am

Allonia_Miral wrote:
Drustai wrote:But they are also very weak in other areas. It ultimately balances out.

I rarely see any weaknesses played out though.

Also my biggest gripe with dk's - not feeling pain doesn't mean you're not still being affected by damages and physical laws.

Weaknesses are to be exploited, they are not to be advertised. we're not bond villains.

by **siegmund** Tue Jun 25, 2013 12:51 pm

Amaryl wrote:
Allonia_Miral wrote:
Drustai wrote:But they are also very weak in other areas. It ultimately balances out.

I rarely see any weaknesses played out though.

Also my biggest gripe with dk's - not feeling pain doesn't mean you're not still being affected by damages and physical laws.
Weaknesses are to be exploited, they are not to be advertised. we're not bond villains.

Think she ment that in her usual experience most don't seem affected as much by such weaknesses.

"But I think we all knew DK is basically the scrub class" We do, but are you saying good played DKs are not around? If you're talking to specific people then it's of course confusing!

Totaly gonna tell Lavian picked a OP scrub class! *HulkRage and smashes trough a wall super Pao monk style*

Good read though and how everyones thoughts are on the matter.

by **Thelos** Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:23 pm

Rae Wulfgnar wrote:These threads are for people to discuss/argue lore..if you don't like people arguing then don't come into the thread and tell them to stop! Every-one is calm, no-one is raging..we are discussing!

I enjoy reading every-ones opinion on a subject, and I'm sure a lot of others do too thats why we argue! Saying one person is better than the other is just silly..we all have our own similar interpretations.

Saying a discussion is ultimately pointless is another way of entering the debate. I was not telling people to stop discussing, J was trying to argue that their discussion was pointless by analysing it, which is another way of engaging in debate.

Discussion about the discussion is also part of the discussion, if that makes any sense (it doesn't)

by **Tuomas/Decurius** Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:26 pm

Beladon wrote:If we are all over powered heroes then I have news for you. If everyone is special, no one is special. It's why for years people always respected the balance in RP, that your strength comes from your skill rping and not because you had a good idea to roll the Over powered class that screwed over years of lore. As I said before, it's all about respect for the other rprs and unless they agree, don't rp overpowered characters, because face it...if you enter a cycling contests, you expect to race against others using bicycles, if someone shows up on a bloody motorbike he's going to be disqualified.

1. The lore is Blizzard's lore, not players'. Ergo, if you want to rp in their world you have to respect their lore, not dismiss parts of it only 'cause they don't fit your view of how that lore should be. And sure you cannot point fingers at those who decide to respect that lore roleplaying the classes or/and the world as it's delivered by those who created that world. I'll repeat it here as I did other times: saying that death knights screwed up lore shows only possessiveness over something, lore, that's not yours: Blizzard say they're fine within the lore, they are fine. Same with worgen, same with draenei, same with monks, same with pandas, same with everything that Blizzard introduced in the lore since Warcraft 1 was in the shops. You can like it or not, but cannot say they don't fit in the lore, 'cause the lore isn't yours to decide such in the first place.
2. I'm all for balance, and all my toons(even the oh-so-op-dk) have a huge amount of weaknesses balancing their strengths. But again, it's my decision. Using your metaphor, you don't get to a motorcycle contest with a bicycle, and complain that you can't win. If you want to play the lowly peasant with no knowledge of magic or self defense in a world where, yes, there are people who can summon zombies, fart fireballs from their hands or leap 4 meters forward in the blink of an eye is your choice, but you can't really say that other players who simply choose to be able to do those things are wrong.

(Obviously, the 'you' is a generic 'you'. I used Beladon's post only as start and sum up of other things)

by **Coppersocket** Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:44 pm

siegmund wrote:

"But I think we all knew DK is basically the scrub class" We do, but are you saying good played DKs are not around? If you're talking to specific people then it's of course confusing!

Totaly gonna tell Lavian picked a OP scrub class! *HulkRage and smashes trough a wall super Pao monk style*

Good read though and how everyones thoughts are on the matter.

I tend to try stay away from DKs in RP as much as possible for these reasons, I don't find it enjoyable.
There are of course exceptions, but in large, I have little interest in being anywhere near any DKs.

I'm not saying there's no exceptions, however from My experience there seems to be very few who are these 'exceptions'. Many who roll a DK seem to just want to be exactly that, Super Saiyan. Not saying it's wrong in itself, but it really makes the experience for those outside that bubble of people, difficult.

I'm not pointing fingers at anyone and saying "S/he is a bad DK." I don't think I got the right to judge that from what little experience I have.
I hear things from other people tho, which I base this on. (Therefor it's not to be taken for granted, in any way.)

by **Vaell** Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:37 pm

erwtenpeller wrote:
Vaell wrote:By your logic, we could have sent all of these heroes to kill the Lich King and whenever one died, he'd just get back up against from the spirit healers.
That's pretty much what happened..

Nope, it isn't. The game treats you like it's single player with some multiplayer interaction (group quests/dungeons/raids) so people will recognise you as the hero who saved this area and that area but never mention "Ah, you're the 500th person to kill 10 of those spiders today. Great job!" The lore pretty much points to a war in the North where a hero on both factions managed to turn the tide in many areas before a larger group of heroes stormed the Citadel with Fordring and killed the Lich King.

by **Dorothee/Duvaineth** Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:06 pm

Wow you guys wrote a lot. I briefly read through everything.

Things are simple.
Dks are just another class but are undead, with unholy, frost, blood runic powers
They can be stabbed, have limbs cut off, are affected by magic.

They may seem OP for the following reason but isnt what makes them hard to beat.

The more they wound their target the more of a chance they have to recover from a wound taken in battle. Death strike ability. That is something I try and teach in the Wardens to emphasize in their emotes so ppl can understand why their Dks may recover a bit. Also death coil is not a harmful spell but in lore its a healing one. There are other spells Dks can use in combat to self heal or if you prefer other words maybe regain energy or strength. Despite this seeming OP its not. Dks can be taken down just like any other class. I personally think its the saronite that makes it hard. The LK went to a great effort to have it minned and crafterd into a lot of stuff. I think it is why Dks seem so OP but yet saronite can be penetrated in various ways.

Not to spam this forum I made a new brief post of what saronite is from various sites I gathered what info I could.

http://www.defiasrp.com/t7129-saronite-a-death-knights-best-choice-of-armor#197325

by **Lexgrad** Tue Jun 25, 2013 4:56 pm

Coppersocket wrote:
Krogon Devilstep wrote:Is this just some slapstick-silly thread dedicated to arguing for why Death-knights should be "OMFG UBER POWERFUL"...?

Because if it is, Bitches be crazy.
That does seem to be the general gist of it.

But I think we all knew DK is basically the scrub class, and by general view pointed out in this thread, it seems most people would be inclined to agree.

A class imprevious to fatigue, unable to be poisoned, unable to feel any proper pain, able to wear one of the most sturdiest metals known to man without any consequence while no other being (aside from other undead), can. Which also happens to be the very metal that can deflect divine magic. Then also able to wreck havoc because they were risen by the Lich King and are by default hero characters?
You set yourself up for a proper Mary Sue. Now, this is of course down to how you RP it out and up to the individual, but is it really something worth protecting? I mean, not like it needs to be.

Now, I've not payed much attention to this thread. Cause honestly, it's not really that worth it.
I tend to try stay away from DKs in RP as much as possible for these reasons, I don't find it enjoyable.
There are of course exceptions, but in large, I have little interest in being anywhere near any DKs.

@ copper. You do talk some shit at times. Do you honestly think DK RPers dont have alts or the RPers you seek out rather than DKs RP as DKs too!

The derp knight band wagon came off its wheels years ago.

Tool.

@Kro - quite the opposite by the looks of it, it is a thread why every other class can be a hero class.

by **Coppersocket** Tue Jun 25, 2013 8:49 pm

Lexgrad wrote:@ copper. You do talk some shit at times. Do you honestly think DK RPers dont have alts or the RPers you seek out rather than DKs RP as DKs too!

The derp knight band wagon came off its wheels years ago.

Tool.

@Kro - quite the opposite by the looks of it, it is a thread why every other class can be a hero class.

What? What are you even relating to?

When did I say anything about any specific players, or them having alts, or anything like that? Did you even READ?

by **Tachal** Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:06 am

Once upon a time, in the world of In-ter-net, in the land of De´Fias forums, there was a man named Tachal

By day he was a normal douchebag druid, who occasionally danced with people he met in Arenas, since it amused him

But when the forums were in peril by evil threads, he changed.
Such is the situation now. He has spotted an evil forum, which spawns more and more hatred within those who visit upon it
Ability Affects on a Death Knight - Page 4 <a href=

Ability Affects on a Death Knight - Page 4 <a href=

Ability Affects on a Death Knight - Page 4 2rbzlzm

He knew it was his place to step in, to cast down the threads madness. And so he drew off his mortal bindings Ability Affects on a Death Knight - Page 4 <a href=

Ability Affects on a Death Knight - Page 4 W7oQ8wA

And placed the blessed artifact of the In-ter-net gods upon his brow and became

Ability Affects on a Death Knight - Page 4 <a href=

Ability Affects on a Death Knight - Page 4 Y3ilbel

FABTACH

He strode to the throne of the Threads, were he confronted the evil thread that has sown hate and discord amongts the people of De'fias

There he summoned the almighty power of Imagination mixed with understanding of others and respect for loreguidelines, among with the power of companionship and politeness.

Ability Affects on a Death Knight - Page 4 <a href=

Ability Affects on a Death Knight - Page 4 AMSiMsF

And so Fabtach cast down the evil thread, freeing De'fias from its malevolent grasp. No longer shall De'fias' people be ruled in by its nefariousness, no longer shall one believe his own opinion is the ultimate truth in the whole world of In-ter-net.

More threads may come, more evil may rise from the minds of others.

But Fabtach will be watching, and waiting.

With his trusty companion, Sir Mspaint.

by **siegmund** Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:13 am

This thread just became 20% cooler.

by **Thelos** Wed Jun 26, 2013 7:26 am

Tachal Stormclaw wrote:Once upon a time, in the world of In-ter-net, in the land of De´Fias forums, there was a man named Tachal

By day he was a normal douchebag druid, who occasionally danced with people he met in Arenas, since it amused him

But when the forums were in peril by evil threads, he changed.
Such is the situation now. He has spotted an evil forum, which spawns more and more hatred within those who visit upon it

He knew it was his place to step in, to cast down the threads madness. And so he drew off his mortal bindings

And placed the blessed artifact of the In-ter-net gods upon his brow and became

FABTACH

He strode to the throne of the Threads, were he confronted the evil thread that has sown hate and discord amongts the people of De'fias

There he summoned the almighty power of Imagination mixed with understanding of others and respect for loreguidelines, among with the power of companionship and politeness.

And so Fabtach cast down the evil thread, freeing De'fias from its malevolent grasp. No longer shall De'fias' people be ruled in by its nefariousness, no longer shall one believe his own opinion is the ultimate truth in the whole world of In-ter-net.

More threads may come, more evil may rise from the minds of others.

But Fabtach will be watching, and waiting.

With his trusty companion, Sir Mspaint.

Godmoter.

by **Thondalar Stormleaf** Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:30 am

siegmund wrote:This thread just became 20% cooler.

Definitely.

by **Drustai** Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:51 am

Tachal.

I love you.

Have my babies.

by **Seranita** Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:08 am

that is amazing! funny and epic Smile

by **erwtenpeller** Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:46 am

Drustai wrote:Tachal.

I love you.

Have my babies.

by **Feral / Blackfall** Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:19 am

Rofl'd hard at "Fabtach." I love you just a little. Well maybe a lot.

On topic I agree with most of what Beladon, Vaell & Wulfy have said. And yeah my replies are definitely not arguing, I find it fascinating, though Blizz's fail on lore in places makes me cry a bit. Sad

Drustai wrote:A weak person on an adrenaline rush is still a weak person. Keep that in mind.

Weak people would never, however, be raised as DKs. And things like Unholy Strength (the WC upgrade, as well as in-game talents etc--not as a mechanic, but as the name) still suggest that undeads are more powerful.

Drustai wrote:Why would magical poison require blood? Why can't it travel through the spirit?

Because then it would just be magic, with no need for poison. Why put it in poison that requires bloodstream movement? xD

Drustai wrote:And most rogues are the SI:7 type, not the 'thug with daggers'. Because player characters are the heroes, not the common man.

I'm with others on this; not every player is The Hero, in fact if someone played as that they'd better do it damn well. It'd be a bit ridiculous if everyone in RP (a thing WoW is not made for, bear in mind) had been at tons of major lore events, was well-versed in magic, a multiple-war veteran, had run into prominent lore characters repeatedly and so on. Could RP be this way? Maybe, but personally I like it how it is. Rogues are mostly thugs. Warriors are mostly soldiers. Hunters are marksmen, foresters. I'm fine with this, it's how I like it, I think lots of others will agree.

Thane Korth'azz of the Four Horsemen uses Meteor. A fire spell. A decidedly unDK-like spell, wouldn't you think? Lady Blaumeux uses Shadow Bolt. A spell shared with warlocks!

I forgot about them, and thanks for the link! That said--shadow isn't a "warlock spell" exactly, shadow is ...shadow. Death knights use a LOT of shadow, anyway. Korth'azz is said to "wield the power of flame," it's not said how or from where. The four (described, by the way, as the "pinnacle of death knights," and not Acherus DKs) are still noteworthy in that respect.

DKs use arcane magic. Rune magic is a type of arcane magic. Necromancy is a school of arcane magic.

While Necromancy is listed in the books of arcane magic, is it not shadow? Every "necromancy" spell in game is classed as shadow magic--though fuck getting into a "is shadow arcane or divine" lore argument Neutral

DEATH KNIGHT rune magic, however, is "death magic," rune magic not in line with the others but rather taught by the Vrykul to the LK's forces. IIRC it's all shadow in some way. Even frost--the frost used by Liches, Death Knights, Necromancers etc--is described not as arcane, but as "the chill of the grave," as if it's from a different source entirely.

On a bunch of other comments that I'll not spam-quote: I don't think Plague spells are nature, I think they're just shadow being used to corrupt life. Regarding Mind Control: Mind Control is simple shadow. To control undead requires -necromancy.- "Three categories of undead: Incorporeal, Corporeal, and Skeletal." - This is interesting! I don't have much more to say other than it's a cool thought. ...Unconstructive I know but still!

by **Drustai** Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:09 am

Feral / Blackfall wrote:
Drustai wrote:A weak person on an adrenaline rush is still a weak person. Keep that in mind.

Weak people would never, however, be raised as DKs. And things like Unholy Strength (the WC upgrade, as well as in-game talents etc--not as a mechanic, but as the name) still suggest that undeads are more powerful.

Heroes are raised as DKs. A physically weak person can still be a hero. The Lich King did not simply target warriors and paladins for raising. He raised champions of the Alliance and champions of the Horde.

Also? Corpses rot. Muscles atrophy and detiorate. If the corpse was retrieved swiftly and preserved well, it'll be rather strong. If it was recovered days or weeks after death, it is going to be decayed.

Drustai wrote:Why would magical poison require blood? Why can't it travel through the spirit?

Because then it would just be magic, with no need for poison. Why put it in poison that requires bloodstream movement? xD

Because rogues don't have the time to cast spells in the middle of combat. So they prepare it in a magical poison that they apply to their weapons ahead of time, so that they can apply the spell immediately upon piercing the enemy's flesh.

Magic can be applied in many ways. It doesn't have to be a flashy spell. A magical substance that travels through the soul like a poison travels through the body and is applied to a physical weapon is very useful in its own ways.

It's my personal opinion that most poison in WarCraft doesn't travel through the blood, but rather moves through the spiritual "veins" in the target's soul. Much like injecting right into Azeroth's ley lines. The ley lines are the "arteries" of the planet, the same would be the case with the Simple Rune patterns in individual souls.

Drustai wrote:And most rogues are the SI:7 type, not the 'thug with daggers'. Because player characters are the heroes, not the common man.

I'm with others on this; not every player is The Hero, in fact if someone played as that they'd better do it damn well. It'd be a bit ridiculous if everyone in RP (a thing WoW is not made for, bear in mind) had been at tons of major lore events, was well-versed in magic, a multiple-war veteran, had run into prominent lore characters repeatedly and so on. Could RP be this way? Maybe, but personally I like it how it is. Rogues are mostly thugs. Warriors are mostly soldiers. Hunters are marksmen, foresters. I'm fine with this, it's how I like it, I think lots of others will agree.

I never said that every player is the Hero. I did say it's the default for player characters, and that it is the player's choice to not play the hero. There's nothing wrong with that at all, and it is indeed the case that most (Alliance) RPers choose not to play the hero. But the fact is that the classes we play are meant to be heroic. In the WoW RPG, NPCs even had an entirely different set of classes, much weaker than the hero classes. Heroes were Warriors, with all the powers available to them, while NPCs had the Soldier, which was weaker all around and lacked all of the amazing abilities. Most RPers choose to RP those "NPC Classes". The Aristocrat, the Commoner, the Expert, the Soldier. There's nothing wrong with that.

What is a problem is when people who choose to actually RP the "Heroic" classes, with heroic abilities--epic heroes going on epic adventures--get yelled at for it.

DKs use arcane magic. Rune magic is a type of arcane magic. Necromancy is a school of arcane magic.

While Necromancy is listed in the books of arcane magic, is it not shadow? Every "necromancy" spell in game is classed as shadow magic--though fuck getting into a "is shadow arcane or divine" lore argument DEATH KNIGHT rune magic, however, is "death magic," rune magic not in line with the others but rather taught by the Vrykul to the LK's forces. IIRC it's all shadow in some way. Even frost--the frost used by Liches, Death Knights, Necromancers etc--is described not as arcane, but as "the chill of the grave," as if it's from a different source entirely.

See, this is one of the confusing things from Blizzard.

You think i'm talking about elemental arcane. I'm not. i'm talking about Arcane Magic. Blizzard does this with many things. There's Arcane the type of magic, and arcane the element (the combination of every element except shadow). Just like there's Divine the type of magic and divine the "element" (better referred to as Holy, only used by Priests and Paladins). There's also Shadow the faith (Forgotten Shadow) and shadow the element.

Death knights use Arcane Magic. They don't typically use arcane the element (though they are capable of using it, as blood elf death knights can use Arcane Torrent). But they do use Arcane Magic, because Arcane Magic is defined as the casting of magic through understanding and manipulating of magical patterns through spells and runes. (this is in comparison to Divine Magic, which is the casting of magic through willpower and faith).

Arcane Magic is a method of casting magic, through spells and runes. Necromancy is a School of Arcane Magic. Meaning, it's a branch within the overall Arcane method, which focuses on achieving certain effects (in this case, manipulation of the forces of death) through the overall medium of spells and runes.

Elemental arcane is different from Arcane Magic. It is an element, specifically a combination of the elements of fire, frost, air, earth, and life. (adding shadow and possibly holy makes it Chaos, which is Fel). Elements are used in both Arcane Magic and Divine Magic. Elements are the form of energy used in magic... it's the material, the energy, that is used (Arcane Magic and Divine Magic are like two different sports. Elements are like the ball. The two sports might have different rules and ways of playing the game, yet still use the same kind of ball). Shadow is used in both Arcane Magic (Warlocks, Death Knights, Necromancers) and Divine Magic (Shadowpriests).

As for their use of frost... much like plague, I see death knight frost magic as being a dual-element (even though it isn't mechanically for balance reasons). The frost magic used by death knights is "darker" than "plain" frost. Therefore I'm personally inclined to believe that death knight/necromancer frost magic is in fact shadowfrost (shadow+frost). This is the neatest way of explaining why their frost magic is more evil than normal frost (and also explains why warlock fire spells are more evil than normal fire, because they would be shadowflame... shadow+flame).

On a bunch of other comments that I'll not spam-quote: I don't think Plague spells are nature, I think they're just shadow being used to corrupt life.

Corrupt (shadow) life (nature). Shadow+nature. Plague.

by **Feral / Blackfall** Thu Jun 27, 2013 7:54 am

Drustai wrote:
Heroes are raised as DKs. A physically weak person can still be a hero. The Lich King did not simply target warriors and paladins for raising. He raised champions of the Alliance and champions of the Horde.

Also? Corpses rot. Muscles atrophy and detiorate. If the corpse was retrieved swiftly and preserved well, it'll be rather strong. If it was recovered days or weeks after death, it is going to be decayed.

He raised people to be soldiers and warriors, I don't think he'd be plucking out skinny geeks to be his champions. And again, muscles aren't needed, death knights are "powered" by unholy/shadow magics. If muscle health were a factor I would assume you'd have to take blood flow, oxygen etc back into account. Either weak people are fine DKs because of unholy strength, -or-, muscles are necessary for his soldiers, in which case the rotted ones would be cast aside, not raised.

Drustai wrote:Because rogues don't have the time to cast spells in the middle of combat. So they prepare it in a magical poison that they apply to their weapons ahead of time, so that they can apply the spell immediately upon piercing the enemy's flesh.

Then it won't work on a DK. If they want to use a "magic poison" I don't see how it'd work, I doubt I'd accept "it traveled through your magical veins" as a reason in RP for poisons to work on a DK. Same reason I'd say a holy water injection would burn the -hell- out of the place it was stuck in, but not travel throughout the body.

Arcane Magic is a method of casting magic, through spells and runes.

Isn't arcane magic any magic using ley lines? I.e. all schools of magic powered by the arcane...? Subjected to all rules of arcane magic? I.e. not shadow, which is supposedly divine? A great deal of this seems fanmade or serverlore, and against some of established, though again, Blizzard does self-contradict often enough. Regardless of this stuff though (it doesn't really matter, in the end, and that's the indecisive conclusion these threads always come to), DKs access their runic magic through DK-specific runes or calling directly on shadow, not anything else, ever, so I still disagree that they'd be able to run around using other schools/regular spells.

Corrupt (shadow) life (nature). Shadow+nature. Plague.

Well, no. Corrupt, as in shadow. The way Devouring Plague, a priest shadow ability (and yes this is mechanics, but still) is a plague, made purely of shadow. I'd think that nature magic, life magic, requires the presence of life force to be manipulated; death knights are undead, they have necrotic force, not life. I'd say a necromancer would have to drain necromantic energy and not life force from a death knight, as well, and that a warlock with the ability to do the latter, and not the former, would be unable to drain them. I'd think that tapping into the powers of life, and the living, is quite locked off from the undead. To say that a death knight is using nature magic because they can apply diseases is a bit of a stretch imo. To interact with/corrupt life doesn't require life magic, but to actually use and cast it, imo, it would.

I'm with you on the frost/shadow--as I mentioned, necromancy's frost school is likely from an entirely different source, or it might be both as you mention. Found the quote, though it's only present in one place: "necromancers... chill the living with the power of death."

...Also, this is making me SO sick of vague-ass Blizzlore *eyeroll* If they had laid out rules for their magic, clear rules, and then stuck by them, all of this theorycrafting would be unnecessary Sad

by **Drustai** Thu Jun 27, 2013 8:17 am

Feral / Blackfall wrote:
Drustai wrote:
Heroes are raised as DKs. A physically weak person can still be a hero. The Lich King did not simply target warriors and paladins for raising. He raised champions of the Alliance and champions of the Horde.

Also? Corpses rot. Muscles atrophy and detiorate. If the corpse was retrieved swiftly and preserved well, it'll be rather strong. If it was recovered days or weeks after death, it is going to be decayed.

He raised people to be soldiers and warriors, I don't think he'd be plucking out skinny geeks to be his champions. And again, muscles aren't needed, death knights are "powered" by unholy/shadow magics. If muscle health were a factor I would assume you'd have to take blood flow, oxygen etc back into account. Either weak people are fine DKs because of unholy strength, -or-, muscles are necessary for his soldiers, in which case the rotted ones would be cast aside, not raised.

Muscles are a factor in corporeal undead, as stated. Forsaken are weaker than normal humans because they're rotten. Abominations are stronger because they've been built with a stronger musculature.

Blood flow and oxygen don't matter. The muscles are reanimated through magic. Magic fuels them.

Then it won't work on a DK. If they want to use a "magic poison" I don't see how it'd work, I doubt I'd accept "it traveled through your magical veins" as a reason in RP for poisons to work on a DK. Same reason I'd say a holy water injection would burn the -hell- out of the place it was stuck in, but not travel throughout the body.

Magical poisons are magical. There is no reason they need blood circulation if they're magical. It's magic.

Arcane Magic is a method of casting magic, through spells and runes.

Isn't arcane magic any magic using ley lines? I.e. all schools of magic powered by the arcane...? Subjected to all rules of arcane magic? I.e. not shadow, which is supposedly divine? A great deal of this seems fanmade or serverlore, and against some of established, though again, Blizzard does self-contradict often enough.

It is not fanmade/server lore. At worst it's fan interpretation (which is what we're all doing because Blizzard doesn't provide concrete details). If you want the sources for my interpretation, read my Magic Guide, which is painstakingly sourced.

Shadow is not divine. Shadow is an element like any other. There exists a Shadow RELIGION, but there is nothing to indicate that Shadow itself is divine in the same way as Holy. (believing in something doesn't make it divine. Shadow doesn't perform miracles that break the laws of reality in the way that Holy does). Shadow can be used through both Arcane and Divine methods, but it itself is not divine. This is one of the big differences between faith in the Light and the Shadow religion, too. In the Light, the caster is the tool and the Light the wielder. The Light works through you, you don't control it. In Shadow, the shadow is the tool and the caster is the wielder. Like a mage, you bend the element to your will. Unlike a mage, you do it by raw force of will, raw personal strength and egotism. The faith of Shadow is about believing you yourself are a god, not that shadow is divine.

And what are the ley lines? They are magical patterns. Arcane magic is about manipulating magic patterns. Spellcasting forces and bends elemental energies into unnatural patterns. Runecasting is about replicating natural patterns--the ley line patterns--to perform magical effects. Both are about knowing how to manipulate the ley line patterns to perform magical effects. So even by this definition, death knight magic is still Arcane Magic, because it's based off of the ley line patterns.

Also, Warcraft uses a DnD style magic system. The same reason we have the DnD Schools of Magic. In the DnD system, as established, Arcane Magic and Divine Magic are the two methods of casting magic. WoW uses the DnD system along with their own stuff, which is why it comes across as so confusing.

Now, you can go and say that the Arcane/Divine divide, along with Runecasting being part of Arcane Magic, is the result of the WoW RPG and therefore non-canon. Problem with this is... the WoW RPG provides some of the best lore available on magic (espcially rune magic, which gets a whole chapter), and is key to building a concise understanding. Therefore i'm personally inclined to use it because talking about magic without it becomes almost impossible.

...Also, this is making me SO sick of vague-ass Blizzlore *eyeroll* If they had laid out rules for their magic, clear rules, and then stuck by them, all of this theorycrafting would be unnecessary

Half the reason I wrote my magic guide was to put all the sources in one location in a concise and organized matter to try and make sense of the system. You can actually kind of tell by the way it is written that I was basically arguing with myself and coming to a conclusion through my own writing. It was basically a research paper.

But yeah, stuff like this is one of the reasons why I'm so happy to be largely done with full magic characters. I'm so tired of these arguments. Blizzard's lore is a God-damn mess.

by **erwtenpeller** Thu Jun 27, 2013 9:01 am

See also:
http://www.defiasrp.com/t6474-magic-the-pursuit-of-cosmic-truth-article-4

by **Lexgrad** Thu Jun 27, 2013 4:50 pm

Ok Dru. If everyone is magical and abilities can be canon I ask the following.

Why can you not silence a huntard or a rogue? Smile

by **siegmund** Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:06 pm

Lexgrad wrote:Ok Dru. If everyone is magical and abilities can be canon I ask the following.

Why can you not silence a huntard or a rogue?

Lex plz. IT'S OBVIOUS. We're just -that- awsome.

And who said ya can't, unless you mean...

Game mechanics.

It's been said time and time again you can take a lot of things from the game, the lore, the lore other there, your smug attitude and whatnot. But as Dru said Blizz lore is like things with some sense mashed up and something added so that it doesn't make full sense anymore.

Sure in RP anything magical can be silenced or whatever, no one stated you can't.

by **erwtenpeller** Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:08 pm

You can silence a rogue.

In fact, I'm sure a rogue would love that.

by **Dréfurion** Thu Jun 27, 2013 5:18 pm

erwtenpeller wrote:You can silence a rogue.

In fact, I'm sure a rogue would love that.

+1

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