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Alright! Thanks a lot. That answered it.

...I'm confused.

I'll just wait untill you approach the Draenei; I won't force myself upon you or show up uninvited, since the Draenei faithful were never organized in any Church, nor do they follow the Three Virtues. I'll wait patiently untill a cross-church initiative is established and you are open to spacegoat-input .

Paozi wrote:...I'm confused.

I'll just wait untill you approach the Draenei; I won't force myself upon you or show up uninvited, since the Draenei faithful were never organized in any Church, nor do they follow the Three Virtues. I'll wait patiently untill a cross-church initiative is established and you are open to spacegoat-input .

The invitation is open, I won't be approaching people individually based on race, I have approached people based on being a Priest or not. This is part of the Community of Light's progression in creating a permanent establishment to cater for Light centric role-play for the Alliance without solely limiting ourselves to the Church of Light in Stormwind while being able to participate everywhere freely.

Goodwyn wrote:On who's list are Argents listed as heretics?

Yes.. clergy of the Church overlap with being worshipers of the Holy Light. It would be counter-productive to not invite the bulk of the Light preaching community (clergy) to a movement attempting to bring together as many faithful as possible.

The Argent DAWN were listed as heretics in Dark Factions, same as the Scarlet Crusade. They were respected still, but considered heretics.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Heretics_of_the_Holy_Light

I don't know if the Argent CRUSADE is, since the Argent Crusade includes the Knights of the Silver Hand which is an established Church organization.

At the very beginning of the link it states:

This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon.

Drustai still considers the RPGs canon even when the rest of us don't.

I'm not sure what's up with that.

To bad in that case!

The Three Virtues come from an RPG book and are therefore not canon either.

Melnerag wrote:The Three Virtues come from an RPG book and are therefore not canon either.

Does it exp+licitly state above them that they are non-canon yeah? I don't think so.

RPG books are used infrequently by Blizzard, but I think a good indicator is when it actually states it being non-canon or not.

http://www.wowpedia.org/World_of_Warcraft:_The_Roleplaying_Game

This is where the Three Virtues originate from.

Quote:

but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

from ask the devs II.

It is otherwise stated in the link provided by Drustai that it is non-canon.

Also I agree, the remnants of the Silver Hand being heretical is ridiculous.

Goodwyn wrote:

Melnerag wrote:The Three Virtues come from an RPG book and are therefore not canon either.

Does it explicitly state above them that they are non-canon yeah? I don't think so.

RPG books are used infrequently by Blizzard, but I think a good indicator is when it actually states it being non-canon or not.

That note isn't specific to that particular article but applies to everything from the sourcebooks.

Thanks for putting words in my mouth, Thelos. I never said it was canon, and I specifically only said that they were heretical IN DARK FACTIONS. I was only clarifying what the source for Melnerag's comment was.

That being said, though as the RPG stuff was canon for years before being retconned out, it's something to keep in mind at least. A lot of things we still RP with are also no longer canon, officially (the Cult of Forgotten Shadow, for example, and all of its principles and philosophies, is RPG material and thus non-canon).

Anyway, doesn't matter either way. The Argents were still close allies to the Church even when before their heretical status was retconned, so it wouldn't be a problem even if it was canon.

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

Three Virtues Wowpedia article does not have a statement "This is Canon". And I don't think I ever saw Three Virtues mentioned in the game world.

I'm not about to go calling anyone who uses the sourcebooks for inspirations a loller, heavens no; the only point I was trying to make is that the entirety of the sourcebooks are non-canonical, so it is very silly to say of one aspect that it is canonical and of another is not.

However I never shyed away from using non-canonical things in my role-play. To hell with canon. In fact I think the whole institution of "Canon-izing" is pretty stupid and one of the worst aspects of nerd culture and I'd rather not spend my time scrutinizing the varying degree of canonicity in a fantasy world.

So, rather than "Don't use it, it's not canon", I was trying to say "Do use it, but don't treat it as canon, because it is not".

Goodwyn wrote:

Melnerag wrote:The Three Virtues come from an RPG book and are therefore not canon either.

Does it explicitly state above them that they are non-canon yeah? I don't think so.

RPG books are used infrequently by Blizzard, but I think a good indicator is when it actually states it being non-canon or not.

The RPG books have been specifically retconned, as in every thing from them. Where WoWpedia fails to denote if it's non-canon, that is because WoWpedia is a user-edited and non-canon source. They haven't updated all of their articles to remove or write-off all RPG information yet. This is why you always look at the sources on a WoWpedia (or Wikipedia) article, not the article itself.

As I said, this is why it's often a good idea to keep them in mind. Many, MANY people are RPing under facts that they think are canon, yet are in fact not. The Three Virtues are one of those. This is why I personally still use the RPG stuff in my RP (except where it's specifically contradicted by in-game lore), because even if no longer officially canon, many of these things have been part of our RP for years because they were once canon.

Melnerag wrote:

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

Three Virtues Wowpedia article does not have a statement "This is Canon". And I don't think I ever saw Three Virtues mentioned in the game world.

I go by the unstated assumption that due to it not being stated "This is not canon" it is in fact canon, as I interpret most pieces of lore unless they are obviously out of date. It is better grounding to go by and I stand by it, naturally factors such as lore that contradicts etc is taken into account.

Drustai wrote:

Goodwyn wrote:

Melnerag wrote:The Three Virtues come from an RPG book and are therefore not canon either.

Does it explicitly state above them that they are non-canon yeah? I don't think so.

RPG books are used infrequently by Blizzard, but I think a good indicator is when it actually states it being non-canon or not.

The RPG books have been specifically retconned, as in every thing from them. Where WoWpedia fails to denote if it's non-canon, that is because WoWpedia is a user-edited and non-canon source. They haven't updated all of their articles to remove or write-off all RPG information yet. This is why you always look at the sources on a WoWpedia (or Wikipedia) article, not the article itself.

As I said, this is why it's often a good idea to keep them in mind. Many, MANY people are RPing under facts that they think are canon, yet are in fact not. The Three Virtues are one of those. This is why I personally still use the RPG stuff in my RP (except where it's specifically contradicted by in-game lore), because even if no longer officially canon, many of these things have been part of our RP for years because they were once canon.

Yes, I pretty much agree with you except for what I have written already. I go by lore being canon unless proven otherwise either via a new source or in-game material, or unless it blatantly states: THIS IS NOT CANON.

Goodwyn wrote:

Melnerag wrote:

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

Three Virtues Wowpedia article does not have a statement "This is Canon". And I don't think I ever saw Three Virtues mentioned in the game world.

I go by the unstated assumption that due to it not being stated "This is not canon" it is in fact canon, as I interpret most pieces of lore unless they are obviously out of date. It is better grounding to go by and I stand by it, naturally factors such as lore that contradicts etc is taken into account.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Church_of_Light

Right there are the top of the page. "This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon." Further, if you look at the sources for the Three Virtues (source 5), it specifically says that they are from the World of WarCraft RPG Core Rulebook.

Actually....it does:

This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon.

On top of article on the Church of the Holy Light of which 3 Virtues are a part.



Anyway, point being is that if you disregard RPG books entirely you are left with virtually nothing to RP with. I am rather clumsy with making the point, but Thelos did it for me!

Drustai wrote:

Goodwyn wrote:

Melnerag wrote:

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

Three Virtues Wowpedia article does not have a statement "This is Canon". And I don't think I ever saw Three Virtues mentioned in the game world.

I go by the unstated assumption that due to it not being stated "This is not canon" it is in fact canon, as I interpret most pieces of lore unless they are obviously out of date. It is better grounding to go by and I stand by it, naturally factors such as lore that contradicts etc is taken into account.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Church_of_Light

Right there are the top of the page. "This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon." Further, if you look at the sources for the Three Virtues (source 5), it specifically says that they are from the World of WarCraft RPG Core Rulebook.

Conflicts with the Church existing in game along with a priesthood though doesn't it. Yeah I looked into source number five for the virtues as well, I'm looking at the moment for any references made to the three virtues by the priest trainers at the moment.

Drustai wrote:

As I said, this is why it's often a good idea to keep them in mind. Many, MANY people are RPing under facts that they think are canon, yet are in fact not. The Three Virtues are one of those. This is why I personally still use the RPG stuff in my RP (except where it's specifically contradicted by in-game lore), because even if no longer officially canon, many of these things have been part of our RP for years because they were once canon.

This is pretty much what I do as well.

Rather than speaking in terms of canon and non-canon though, it may be a better idea to speak in terms of game-world and expanded world, in which what is in the game-world is the most important factor and takes precedence over the the expanded world, which includes the books and statements made by Blizzard about the lore. This can further be subdivided into player-expanded world and Blizzard-expanded world, in which the former is lore made by players and therefore the furthermost "ring" when it comes to canonicity, and Blizzard-expanded world being the ring just around the game world.

To re-iterate, the "rings of canonicity":

Center: Game-world.
First ring: Expanded universe ratified by Blizzard & statements by Blizzard employees regarding the lore.
Outer ring: Player-made server-lore.
When conflict occurs, the source closest to the centre should triumph.

Melnerag wrote:Actually....it does:

This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon.

On top of article on the Church of the Holy Light of which 3 Virtues are a part.



Anyway, point being is that if you disregard RPG books entirely you are left with virtually nothing to RP with. I am rather clumsy with making the point, but Thelos did it for me!

It's not that those books are completely disregarded, as Paozi has stated above taking inspiration is pretty cool and building around that, but I would scarcely use it in order to beef up an OOC argument in order to prove one lore is better than two lore.

With that said, still searching for NPC references to the three virtues.

I can agree with you Paozi on what you have stated, what we see in-game is then complimented or added by wherever there is added information online (by gamemasters or somebody else, or via quests).

But eh, I think if you want to discuss the validity of sources and their interpretations a new thread is in order since it's a good discussion that can be very well saved and referenced in the future since this thread is about a gathering of Light believing ladies and gentlemen.

Goodwyn wrote:

Drustai wrote:

Goodwyn wrote:

Melnerag wrote:

Q: Are the Warcraft and World of Warcraft RPG books considered canon?

A: No. The RPG books were created to provide an engaging table-top role-playing experience, which sometimes required diverging from the established video game canon. Blizzard helped generate a great deal of the content within the RPG books, so there will be times when ideas from the RPG will make their way into the game and official lore, but you are much better off considering the RPG books non-canonical unless otherwise stated.

Three Virtues Wowpedia article does not have a statement "This is Canon". And I don't think I ever saw Three Virtues mentioned in the game world.

I go by the unstated assumption that due to it not being stated "This is not canon" it is in fact canon, as I interpret most pieces of lore unless they are obviously out of date. It is better grounding to go by and I stand by it, naturally factors such as lore that contradicts etc is taken into account.

http://www.wowpedia.org/Church_of_Light

Right there are the top of the page. "This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon." Further, if you look at the sources for the Three Virtues (source 5), it specifically says that they are from the World of WarCraft RPG Core Rulebook.

Conflicts with the Church existing in game along with a priesthood though doesn't it. Yeah I looked into source number five for the virtues as well, I'm looking at the moment for any references made to the three virtues by the priest trainers at the moment.

Yes, this is the best way to go about things IMO. In-game sources are always superior, and they sometimes confirm RPG stuff off-handedly (for example, phlogiston is purely RPG, yet you can find a vial of phlogiston in-game which sort of confirms that it is proper canon). Although like I said, even if it's not strictly mentioned in-game, as long as it's not contradicted it's still a useful source even if not canon, because it does help to flesh out RP and was canon for years. Even the devs have said that most of the stuff in the RPG books is good, but they blanket retconned all of it because of a few things they didn't like. They've said they'd like to go through them at some time and pick out what's good and what's bad.

This is pretty much what I do as well.

Rather than speaking in terms of canon and non-canon though, it may be a better idea to speak in terms of game-world and expanded world, in which what is in the game-world is the most important factor and takes precedence over the the expanded world, which includes the books and statements made by Blizzard about the lore. This can further be subdivided into player-expanded world and Blizzard-expanded world, in which the former is lore made by players and therefore the furthermost "ring" when it comes to canonicity, and Blizzard-expanded world being the ring just around the game world.

To re-iterate, the "rings of canonicity":

Center: Game-world.
First ring: Expanded universe ratified by Blizzard & statements by Blizzard employees regarding the lore.
Outer ring: Player-made server-lore.
When conflict occurs, the source closest to the centre should triumph.

Yes, pretty much.

Goodwyn wrote:

Melnerag wrote:Actually....it does:

This article includes content exclusive to the Warcraft RPG and is considered non-canon.

On top of article on the Church of the Holy Light of which 3 Virtues are a part.



Anyway, point being is that if you disregard RPG books entirely you are left with virtually nothing to RP with. I am rather clumsy with making the point, but Thelos did it for me!

It's not that those books are completely disregarded, as Paozi has stated above taking inspiration is pretty cool and building around that, but I would scarcely use it in order to beef up an OOC argument in order to prove one lore is better than two lore.

With that said, still searching for NPC references to the three virtues.

I can agree with you Paozi on what you have stated, what we see in-game is then complimented or added by wherever there is added information online (by gamemasters or somebody else, or via quests).

But eh, I think if you want to discuss the validity of sources and their interpretations a new thread is in order since it's a good discussion that can be very well saved and referenced in the future since this thread is about a gathering of Light believing ladies and gentlemen.

Recommend a mod split this whole discussion from this thread and post it in the Gameplay Discussion forum! It is a good discussion, aye.

It's a shame Blizzard are so chaotic with their lore, when they once preached about how the RPG books were canon and everyone should go pick them up and then as soon as their contract with WotC died, they retconned all of it. Meh.

Chaotic? Blizzard really need to look through ALL their lore and take what is canon and what is not and perhaps add it to their forum rather than an independent website, or something with the Blizzard logo on it or blah.

Anyway, event goes on as planned.