Draenei and Worgen child

Today I got approached about my dissagreement about a worgen and draenei (male worgen, female draenei) having a child together. I have the permission to post these logs to see what the community says on this matter as we both seemed to have strong points and set opinions on the matters. I'm quite iffy about filling blank lore, which shows clearly in the way I addressed this. (The name of the person I spoke to is changed to [Draenei] upon request of privacy) Obviously, this is how I've seen the lore of the matter. So yeah, I could be wrong...

22:09:14 [Draenei] whispers: Yo.
22:09:20 To [Draenei]: Evening
22:09:51 [Draenei] whispers: Why can only Orcs and Draenei have children? Is there something in their dna that match?
22:11:16 To [Draenei]: Outland is an entire different dimension/planet. Both orcs and draenei come from there and share somehow the same "origins". Even if there is a chance that it -is- possible there is only lore on draenei with orcs. It's wrong to assume you have the
22:11:16 To [Draenei]: freedom to invent new things because it's not stated. Always safe to assume it's not possible unless we know it is.
22:11:34 To [Draenei]: Draenei also live so long they are already very infertile, perhaps a chance of pregnancy every 100 years or so
22:11:44 To [Draenei]: Then the odds of it working with a cursed human gets even slimmer
22:12:04 To [Draenei]: And I wont even dig into the solitary ethics of a draenei who only mate with their own, since they are near extinct
22:13:12 [Draenei] whispers: No, Draenei come from a completely different planet Argus. They fled from it when the legion attacked and crashlanded in Outland. The rest of their escape ship is the giant diamond in Nagrad. And the Draenei have been steadily repupulating ever since.
22:13:21 To [Draenei]: Argus was in the same dimension as OUtland
22:13:56 To [Draenei]: And the Draenei nearly got entirelly wiped out with their war against the orcs
22:14:01 To [Draenei]: And -then- crashed onto Azeroth
22:14:04 To [Draenei]: There is very few of them left
22:14:45 To [Draenei]: Not to mention how do you see the mix of human-worgen-draenei at all? It'd be a montrosity and abomination
22:14:48 [Draenei] whispers: They clame differently on wow wiki about Argus and Outland. Plus it is a matter of cultural differences when the draenei may have a child.
22:14:53 To [Draenei]: Who'd want to give birth to a child like that?
22:15:23 [Draenei] whispers: My character wouldnt care for appearance, it would be her child.
22:15:42 To [Draenei]: A child that never will be accepted by her own kin, wouldnt she have some pride in her heritage at all+?
22:16:06 [Draenei] whispers: Are you refering to the child or -draenei-? *snipped out name*
22:16:41 To [Draenei]: Both actually, your draenei would be shunned for having reproduced with a non-draenei and the kid would never be accepted within draenei culture
22:17:44 To [Draenei]: Elves are already very iffy about half breeds, imagine a race much older and entirelly different in their ways
22:17:44 [Draenei] whispers: then the draenei that see it that way will go against the will of the Naaru. Fot them, all life is accepted nomatter what shape or form it may come from.
22:18:20 To [Draenei]: Draenei are self-preserving, getting a kid when your own are nearly wiped out with something that is not a draenei is not really doing any good
22:19:16 [Draenei] whispers: Draenei live forever and will have plenty of years to have children. And now that Illidan is killed and are under no major threat from the legion they can focus on repopulating.
22:19:50 To [Draenei]: No they have very low chances of getting pregnant as I said, BECAUSE they live so long they do not possibly have a monthly cycle like a human does
22:20:39 [Draenei] whispers: True, they may have low fertility ratem but that dosent mean they can never EVER have children.
22:21:01 To [Draenei]: No, but that low rate, the lack of lore and the utter difference between a worgen and draenei is enough to prove my point
22:21:22 To [Draenei]: A child between those two races just seems way out of reach and impossible
22:22:41 [Draenei] whispers: And because of that lack of lore the roleplayers have to make assumptions. In this case I have asked around in the Draenei rp guild on the server and they told me it should be fine to have a child between a worgen and a draenei.
22:22:57 To [Draenei]: How will a half-breed suddenly help in repopulating anyway? That's destruction to their own race
22:23:31 To [Draenei]: The lack of lore shouldbe taken as this: If it is not mentioned it is not possible because other half-breeds ARE mentioned. The ones left out should be impossible
22:23:46 To [Draenei]: Because only half are stated as possible doesnt mean we can assume that the ones not mentioned are possible too
22:23:47 [Draenei] whispers: They life forever. They cannot die of old age. The only way to make them completely extinct is to cut their head off.
22:24:02 [Draenei] whispers: As much AS possible. Not completely.
22:24:54 [ Draenei] whispers: And what the lore leaves out is final?
22:25:15 To [Draenei]: Yes, because the other lore is known and what we know should be used. It is not our place to invent lore
22:25:20 [Draenei] whispers: When the lore says that Worgen and Draenei cant have a child, THEN I'll apologize and admit I was wrong.
22:25:30 To [Draenei]: Draenei and orcs work, that means they are stated as possible coupling between draenei and other races
22:25:42 To [Draenei]: Since when would Blizz make a list of "yes/no" possibilities?
22:25:49 To [Draenei]: Would you accept a goblin worgen?
22:25:53 To [Draenei]: A Belf worgen?
22:26:06 [Draenei] whispers: I am not inventing, who said I am. I tol you I have asked around and follow what the other roleplayers have told me.
22:26:11 To [Draenei]: It's not said they can't get the curse, all said is that "humans are the only known race to get it"
22:26:17 [Draenei] whispers: There are halflings of human/belf.
22:26:28 To [Draenei]: Yes, also known in lore
22:26:32 To [Draenei]: it's stated it's possible
22:26:34 [Draenei] whispers: Or is it just that some humans have the curse that makes them infertile?
22:27:07 To [Draenei]: I'm asking you if you would accept a belf worgen or orc worgen or ANYTHING with the worgen curse that is not human?
22:27:12 [Draenei] whispers: Then it will be a halfling that cant turn into a worgen.
22:27:12 To [Draenei]: Because by your logic we can do that
22:27:18 To [Draenei]: Because the lore does not say it can't be done
22:27:33 [Draenei] whispers: He was the one who suggested it to be able to turn worgen.
22:27:56 To [Draenei]: You're not understanding the question
22:28:08 [Draenei] whispers: And since he have a major part in this, I will listen to his point of view.
22:28:22 To [Draenei]: The lore says "humans and kaldorei can get the worgencurse" I am asking you if you would accept a legal goblin/gnome/orc with the worgencurse
22:28:53 To [Draenei]: Because that would be rpers inventing lore like you are trying to do because it does not say it cannot be done
22:28:54 To [Draenei]: Same thing
22:28:59 [Draenei] whispers: I do understand the question perfectly thank you very much.
22:29:15 [Draenei] whispers: I am not inventing lore, you're the one not listening to me.
22:30:02 To [Draenei]: I took another example of missing lore to make my statement that what isnt know should be left alone
22:30:27 [Draenei] whispers: I SAID I am NOT making lore up. I have searched the forums for the players who have discussed the fact of the missing lore.
22:30:41 [Draenei] whispers: I am simply following their conclusion of the fact.
22:30:54 [Draenei] whispers: YES I know that being a half breed is hard.
22:31:11 [Draenei] whispers: YES I know that for any other race to get the curse.
22:31:14 To [Draenei]: Yes, missing lore. That's my point. there is no lore on other races and the worgen curse either and people can go assuming all the same. So I am asking you if you would aknowledge a goblin that can turn worgen? Because its the same deal
22:31:20 To [Draenei]: Its not in the lore, rpers dont make the lore
22:31:51 [Draenei] whispers: But we play the game and are allowed to have our own opinon on the matter when lore is missing to play the game.
22:32:04 [Draenei] whispers: Do you roleplay?
22:32:10 To [Draenei]: Or you could perhaps... I dont know, play with what we know and actually stick to the lore?
22:32:14 To [Draenei]: Yes I do
22:32:29 To [Draenei]: There is a VAST amount of lore for a very imaginative world
22:32:56 [Draenei] whispers: Then what do you suggest we play as? When we hit the question of getting a child we simply ignore it and skip to the other problem?
22:33:34 To [Draenei]: Simple, use the lack of being able to get a child together in your rp. Adopt a child even. There is plenty of orphans. DOn't change the lore because you want a kid on your char. Change your rp to be more interesting and realistic instead.
22:35:13 [Draenei] whispers: I am not changing any lore, I am following the lore that exsists already. But in the lack of thereoff should be invented, and until Blizzard sits down and acctually do it we will have to discuss a solution.
22:35:39 [Draenei] whispers: As the roleplayers have done in this case. I personally havent changed or altered anything.
22:36:01 [Draenei] whispers: So please dont use that tone with me, it is rather hurtful.
22:36:20 To [Draenei]: You are changing things because it's left in the blank while it's simply a point that should be left untouched due to lack of information. As I said, adapt your rp to the most logical of the two which is still the inability to breed with a worgen. You'd
22:36:20 To [Draenei]: be suprised how much more interesting that can be
22:36:48 To [Draenei]: I'm using a neutral, albeit indeed elitist tone. I've not cussed nor insulted you. I've given facts and an honest opinion.
22:37:06 [Draenei] whispers: Lack of information is not an excuse.
22:37:14 To [Draenei]: It is, we have plenty of known lore to work with.
22:37:37 To [Draenei]: As for that matter, I shall ask the DB community. If you consent on me posting this log on the rp forums
22:38:11 [Draenei] whispers: And so have I and that you continuously claim thatI personally alters everything because of my point of view, it appears that you lay all the blame in me when I say I havent altered anything.
22:38:30 [Draenei] whispers: And that the fact you do not listen to me when I say that, I find a bit insultin.
22:38:50 [Draenei] whispers: I respect your point of view, ofcourse and hope that you'll do the same.
22:39:03 To [Draenei]: I am listening, I am however not agreeing to filling blank gaps of lore to fit your desire of rp. Which indeed others have done before which is the research you did.
22:39:07 To [Draenei]: I do not agree with them either.
22:39:38 [Draenei] whispers: Ofcourse you may post your claim on the forums.
22:40:07 [Draenei] whispers: I will not post my own, simply see what the majority decide and then follow them. Dimple democracy.
22:40:08 To [Draenei]: Thanks, for now I'm going to log off however got some other stuff to handle.
22:40:25 To [Draenei]: Im just going to post the conversation we had. I think they can see both arguments side then
22:40:47 [Draenei] whispers: Ofcourse, but I prefer to have my name left out of it.
22:40:56 To [Draenei]: I'll take it out.
22:41:05 [Draenei] whispers: Thank you.

I won't get into massive detail, but..I am completely agains tthe idea of Worgen and Draenei babies, just my opinion though.

Humans, orcs, and draenei are all capable of breeding together. You need only look at Med'an, who is of human, orc, and draenic decent.

Now, adding worgen into the mix is iffy. We have no proof either way that the worgen curse extends beyond humans and night elves. We also know nothing about worgen breeding as it is. As such, I see the following possibilities:

1) No child possible. The worgen curse conflicts with the odd pairing.
2) Child is human-worgen. No draenic traits are inherited, as the curse conflicts with the draenic genes.
3) Child is human-draenei. The curse does not pass to the child.
4) Child is full worgen, feral and savage, with inability to shift let alone be raised as part of civilized society.

The one thing I do not find likely, is a human-draenei-worgen, because we have no evidence of the worgen curse passing to a non-human/night-elven person.


Also, don't call people out on assumptions when you were making assumptions in your own argument. The idea that draenei are mostly infertile because of their long lives is an assumption (it's hinted at, but no specifics are given... it could be cultural, rather than biological). The idea that draenei would shun a non-draenei offspring is also an assumption, and a wrong one at that (Vindicator Maraad is very supportive of Garona and Me'dan).

Would you call it a drorgen or or worgei?

Glilya wrote:Would you call it a drorgen or or worgei?

An abomination. That's what I'd call it.

Then please tell me why Draenei do not have children every year to repopulate? That's mere logic above assumption. If I was wrong about the shunning, fine.

Glilya wrote:Would you call it a drorgen or or worgei?

A Drustai.

(sorry)

Sharyssa/Adenah wrote: Then please tell me why Draenei do not have children every year to repopulate? That's mere logic above assumption. If I was wrong about the shunning, fine.

Too busy fighting, among other explanations.

Could be cultural, like Drustai said, no? Perhaps they have very planned societies when it comes to having children. Could be considered that due to the general lack of resources they aren't focusing on repopulating since it's hard to make ends meet as it is.

Just a thought.

Sharyssa/Adenah wrote:Then please tell me why Draenei do not have children every year to repopulate? That's mere logic above assumption. If I was wrong about the shunning, fine.

Who says they aren't having children every year to repopulate? Again, an assumption. We do not know how many children draenei are having now, their current birth rates are not stated anywhere.

It is stated in Rise of the Horde that draenei do not often have children, because they are long-lived. It is never stated whether this is a matter of biology, or if it is due to cultural restrictions. If draenei immortality/long-lives are the result of magical tampering, for example (which is very likely considering they were the pinnacle magical society at the time, and that The Last Guardian indicates that human mages live up to 200 years old due to their magic), rather than being natural, then such limited births would have to be cultural in nature rather than biological. All we know for a fact is that draenei did not regularly have children due to their long lives, during the time prior to the Orc War. The why's and how's of that, or if that is still a current fact, are all assumptions.

Is it probable that they only limited reproductive cycles, preventing them from popping out babies regularly? Sure, and I personally believe this. But it is still an assumption, because no specifics are given. I'm not against assumptions being used as the basis for RP, but you should not attack someone else for using assumptions when you are, as well. We have to read in-between the lines for much of our RP, and there is nothing wrong with doing that.

There is a large difference between reading between the lines and making up some lore because only half of the possibilities is stated. Adapting logic to a situation generally makes very little impact. However inventing a new half-breed simply because the possibility is left out of lore...a step to far for me.

Glilya wrote:Would you call it a drorgen or or worgei?

A snowflake.

Sharyssa/Adenah wrote:There is a large difference between reading between the lines and making up some lore because only half of the possibilities is stated. Adapting logic to a situation generally makes very little impact. However inventing a new half-breed simply because the possibility is left out of lore...a step to far for me.

The only issue in this case is the worgen issue. If it was human and draenei, there wouldn't be a problem. But worgen is an issue because we do not know anything about the nature of their breeding. We don't even know what would come of a worgen/worgen pairing, or a human/worgen pairing, let alone with a draenei/worgen pairing.

I am personally against it. I don't support it. I'm against it for the same reason I'd be against worgen/worgen pairings having children. There simply is not enough information to even make a logical assumption. If there were enough details that we could make an assumption, then I'd be okay with it. But we don't even have that. The stuff I stated in my first post are simply the things that I see being even remotely possible, even if I do not agree with the situation at all.

Not to mention most baby RP is fucking awful anyway. And most draenei who are sleeping with non-draenei are typically just blue humans, which is equally awful. But that's personal annoyances.

If Draenei had loads of kids wouldn't you end up with a v small genetic pool? as there are not the generations for verity to form.

I think the curse makes things really too much, i think Worgen can interbreed only with those who can recive the curse... So i'd probably not say Draenei.

But thats my opinion.

But i guess if by some chance, but then it would only count the human side and be a human-Draenei Breed, but worgen-Draenei ... Nah.

I gotta say I agree. While I could possibly see draenei/human working.. physically anyway, i have no idea what would make someone wish to have a child they would outlive.
But anyway! I don't think a worgen would be able to reproduce with anything but another worgen, -maybe- with a human.. but it just seems to me that it would have to be worgen/worgen.

It is only a magical curse! To be honest, I used to badger on at Drustai for a source but the way I see it now, if you can RP it correctly, why not be the first? If it benefits the RP, you can break the rules slightly!

The curse is still -in- the blood of the worgen or else the blood would not pass on the curse, and the effects are -still- physical

Physical, indeed, but where does it say they can't? The way I see it, if it doesn't hurt, don't change it! Just treat it as it is. An abomination to some, development of a species for others.

It doesn't say anywhere literally that horde races can't get the worgencurse. You'll accept them acting to get the curse too? I will keep using this argument for everyone going "Where does it say they can't -especially- in such extreme matters of making up a new race <.<

Vaell wrote:It is only a magical curse! To be honest, I used to badger on at Drustai for a source but the way I see it now, if you can RP it correctly, why not be the first? If it benefits the RP, you can break the rules slightly!

Exactly why this should not be done. Because it almost certainly won't benefit RP at all and will in fact ruin it. Even if it was specifically said to be possible canonically, I'd be against it. Even if it was human-draenei I'd be against it, even though that is possible. Pregnancy/baby RP, especially interbred baby RP, is almost always a bad move, in my experience.

Not to mention due to it being so far from the -known- lore there will be a lot of people ignoring it/refusing to accept it etc. If it's such a problem due to vague lore and knowledge or non existing lore. With everything you CAN do...why'd you want to push something so fragile to such extend, only to have a child IC? Adopt one then, as I said in the initial post. Make your rp interesting with the limits we have.
Instead of making it a bloody horror to see?

Thrakha wrote:

Glilya wrote:Would you call it a drorgen or or worgei?

A snowflake.

Eventually it's their own decision what they end up RPing though, no matter how idiotic it sounds like for some of us. It's their time and their money, and if they don't care about some people snickering at them behind their backs, then good luck with it.
There is no official information about worgen reproduction afaik, which gives leeway to interpretations I guess. But I'm still very much against race combinations that are not seen in game. Who knows how difficult it was to create Garona or Med'an for example, maybe there was some super extra special magic involved...

Pretty much gotta agree with Nessra. A good rper can make a storyline involving a tadpole having a dump interesting.

Don't do a Volusia. No to such horrible combos.

Nessra Sunbinder wrote:Eventually it's their own decision what they end up RPing though, no matter how idiotic it sounds like for some of us. It's their time and their money, and if they don't care about some people snickering at them behind their backs, then good luck with it.
There is no official information about worgen reproduction afaik, which gives leeway to interpretations I guess. But I'm still very much against race combinations that are not seen in game. Who knows how difficult it was to create Garona or Med'an for example, maybe there was some super extra special magic involved...

I don't think this discussion is at all about deciding on what this pair do, I doubt there'd be such a response if that was the case. This is about people's opinions on the matter.