Dramatic Merits of Character Deaths!

Grim wrote:I think this entire thread can be boiled down into a single sentance:

"Everyone likes different things."

Any other comment is unnecessary!

So true!

Wellthat is rather symplistiuc. I like RPing a Space marine in azeroth... does that make me ok?

But I think Amaryl makes some good points. I rembember Bloodwind the movie on their noble guild. " all proof points to duskwood and the blades want to help... Yeah why dont you guys search westfall" That was a really scripted event and was not v well covered so you saw that it was gonna end up in a duel with the Hurstley beating the criminal. But for everyone lse it was pretty shit, Buckholme and braiden being unable to change anything and the blades being sent to pointlessly search a zone so as not to touch the script.

I have done some DM/semi scripted events but it was normally just a theme or an idea and the out come being totally free to be written as the RP wishes... Which imo is alot better.

I trully hate RPing with someone where whatever you do or say or emote makes no difference as their personal plot is that fixed that you are of no relervance to them.

Pretty much every scripted situation I tried failed if it involved dependency on other people. Except for weddings and funerals. For some reason people seem to respect those scripts pretty damn well. Apart from once when a bride decided on the spot to run off... (god that was hilarious). But funerals tend to go as planned.

Come along to a Marauder event then! We stubbornly avoid truly scripted events and we've had no complaints. We've had lots of positive feedback from our members and from new recruits etc.

The idea is simple: We are given a mission (we're mercenaries after all). How the mission is completed, or if it is completed at all, is then down to the RP'ers taking part.

Though this is now moving from the subject of character deaths to a wider one about scripted vs non-scripted RP in general.

Wellthat is rather symplistiuc. I like RPing a Space marine in azeroth... does that make me ok?

Shall I rephrase my summary?

"Everyone likes roleplaying within the boundaries of Warcraft lore in different ways."

:p But no my point still stands. At some point an individuals RP choices could be so far from the needs of the community it becomes unhelpful. Refusing totally to die or face any harm from a reasonable piece of RP perhaps?

I would vote Ishap for the most dramatic character deaths-...

I get the impression that when people say "Scripted events", they imply that the entire event is planned out ahead of time. Having just come off DMing an event last night that I got quite a bit of praise for (even though I personally think it went all over the place <.<) I'd say that, there is no such thing as a "scripted" event.

Most events are scripted in some capacity, because a cohesive narrative adds to the immersion. As Thelos pointed out, the actual script should be kept exclusive to a select few overseeing the event, who sacrifice their own immersion for the benefit of the participants - wether by DMing the event, or simply by knowing beforehand what's planned. An event being "scripted" doesn't mean everyone involved knows what's going to happen and indeed, there's little point to having the event if everyone knows the script beforehand.

The same applies to character deaths. Cid made a post above about how Gogol's death was planned but he didn't let most people in on it, so it caught them by surprise anyway. That's a very good point I think, that preparation and planning doesn't take anything away from the story when used right. I think Amaryl's viewpoint is silly and naïve, assuming that all RP should be "natural" and "random", you end up doing fuck all and having no genuinely immersive story threads to follow on.

There are two main types of 'bad' GM-run RP event.

1) The GM uses the 'event' as a thinly veiled excuse to show how awesome their character is. They slay foes left right and centre while everyone else is expected to stay quiet and be impressed.

2) The event is utterly linear. The participants are expected to do exactly what the GM tells them to do, down to the "You stand here and say this." level and there are no deviations from the end result the GM has planned in.

I dislike both types of events. A true GM-run RP event should have a storyline - such as "Our employer has asked us to retrieve a magical artifact from the ruined castle."
What happens from the start is not defined by the GM, but only guided and managed. The participants make the choices and the GM tells the story according to the choices made. The result can be extremely different from what the GM expects, and that's fine! That's ideal even!

The GM's job is not to force the participants to be actors in their little stories, but to enhance the RP for everyone involved and to provide an organised framework for it to be as fun as possible for everyone involved.

With regards to character deaths, it is entirely up to the participants. I've met very few people who are willing to have their characters killed off randomly but I've met a lot who are happy for their characters (usually alts) to have the chance of death during an event.
One thing I try to mention every time I GM an event is that a) if you want your character to die, tell me and b) by taking part in this event you run the risk of having your character severely injured.

For example, various Marauders have been hideously burnt, had legs shattered, arms torn off (usually only happens to Forsaken characters!) etc etc etc. Grim, my own character is perhaps a good example here (how arrogant am I!?) - he's taken severe battle damage over the years and at this point in time in his story is something of a walking scar with a heavy limp that has severely reduced his ability to run and his agility in general.

RP is fun! I like these discussions.

Wulfgnar wrote:I would vote Ishap for the most dramatic character deaths-...

Seconded! (Can I have her soul )

Grim wrote:There are two main types of 'bad' GM-run RP event.

1) The GM uses the 'event' as a thinly veiled excuse to show how awesome their character is. They slay foes left right and centre while everyone else is expected to stay quiet and be impressed.

2) The event is utterly linear. The participants are expected to do exactly what the GM tells them to do, down to the "You stand here and say this." level and there are no deviations from the end result the GM has planned in.

I dislike both types of events. A true GM-run RP event should have a storyline - such as "Our employer has asked us to retrieve a magical artifact from the ruined castle."
What happens from the start is not defined by the GM, but only guided and managed. The participants make the choices and the GM tells the story according to the choices made. The result can be extremely different from what the GM expects, and that's fine! That's ideal even!

The GM's job is not to force the participants to be actors in their little stories, but to enhance the RP for everyone involved and to provide an organised framework for it to be as fun as possible for everyone involved.

With regards to character deaths, it is entirely up to the participants. I've met very few people who are willing to have their characters killed off randomly but I've met a lot who are happy for their characters (usually alts) to have the chance of death during an event.
One thing I try to mention every time I GM an event is that a) if you want your character to die, tell me and b) by taking part in this event you run the risk of having your character severely injured.

For example, various Marauders have been hideously burnt, had legs shattered, arms torn off (usually only happens to Forsaken characters!) etc etc etc. Grim, my own character is perhaps a good example here (how arrogant am I!?) - he's taken severe battle damage over the years and at this point in time in his story is something of a walking scar with a heavy limp that has severely reduced his ability to run and his agility in general.

RP is fun! I like these discussions.

Mostly I can totally agree with that. As I said I think just a theme or a simple plot and let the RP develop is the best way.

Tho on the matter of deaths, you should be open to it at all times imo as it makes better RP. But we are in a loop now

Amaryl wrote:

Why is he? Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean others can't. There isn't one perfect way to lead events and "plan" events. There isn't a universal standard for all to enjoy. Some people like witnessing the heroic death of someone they rped with, and hope for it to be as glorious as possible, and are fine aiding that goal with their RP, that's another form of interactivity then I'm searching for.

He's bad because if he's running an event in which you are partaking and you are not enjoying, he's not doing his job properly, since the aim of an organizer of an event should be for every participant to be enjoying themselves.

It's a high and unreal standard, but something you must always hold on to, even when it never actually gets fully realized.

Oh, and I also fully subscribe to Grim's point about GM/DMing (would be nice if we can settle on using either of the two terms. I vote for DM, since GM in World of Warcraft is often used to refer to the community server Game Masters with actual power)

You need both randomness and structure. Having too much random leads to, as Sanara said, nothing ever going anywhere. Whereas having too much structure leads to things only moving in the direction one or two people want them to move.

There should be roads, not rails. A rail forces you to follow the course of the rail and if you deviate off of it, it's a wreck. Whereas a road helps you move along a specific path... but there's nothing stopping you from choosing to go offroading for a bit before you get back on the road. Plots and events should provide a framework for the players, but they must be open-ended enough to allow the players to be able to affect the ultimate end result. For example, a 'planned' death should never force the character to be killed if, by some bit of damn luck, the players manage to save the character.

Personally, I prefer deaths to be random instead of planned, but planned deaths can still have impact as long as everyone doesn't know that it's coming and that there's the opportunity for players to affect it. A planned death is not necessarily less immersive than a random death if it is done well.

For myself, I don't like scripting my own RP. So any death I have will always be random, usually based on a dice roll or an RP situation going very much out of my favor (last night, Dru made a mistake and by dice ended up getting impaled right in the chest with a ballista bolt. If she were mortal, she would have died right then. As she was undead, I instead rolled against death... and, thankfully, succeeded). But I don't care if other people script their own stuff, as long as they do it in such a way that I don't feel like I'm just being 'dragged along' with no opportunity to change anything.

Hm. I feel I should comment on Gnash the Greater's death. So... a little anecdote.

In my opinion, there's a trade-off between scripting and just going with it in any event. A death is no exception naturally. Now, all events dwindle in the gray area between those two extremes. I chose to do a bit of scripting because I felt quite strongly about the way Gnash should meet his end. I as his "actor" simply wanted that closure, since I had role-played as him for such a long period of time. Just one time in the spotlight, for old time's sake. After all, he was, and still is, my favorite character!

Despite the scripting up to his death, I had not planned anything passed that point. Gnash had mentioned before that he would like to burned on the pyre in Nagrand, should he perish -- though. Luckily this got picked up and there was a funeral pyre consequently. I found it quite funny that despite that most orcs thought that Gnash was a grade-A asshole, they still showed him their respects. A minor victory upon death.

Not to mention that it allowed me to introduce a whole new character to the orcs.

PS. Kudo's if you can off a character that you have played for a long time without planning it. I know I couldn't, anyway. But in most cases I do not believe it is entirely unplanned either. I'm sure that people often have been toying with the idea in their minds -- so I doubt it's entirely whimsical.

EDIT: And slightly OT but why do people keep mailing me here as if I'm a moderator? Very peculiar.

Gnash makes a good point, post death issues.

On a DK front the times I have killed guys ic or seen a body and people wont let me take their souls : /

Thelos wrote:

Amaryl wrote:

Why is he? Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean others can't. There isn't one perfect way to lead events and "plan" events. There isn't a universal standard for all to enjoy. Some people like witnessing the heroic death of someone they rped with, and hope for it to be as glorious as possible, and are fine aiding that goal with their RP, that's another form of interactivity then I'm searching for.

He's bad because if he's running an event in which you are partaking and you are not enjoying, he's not doing his job properly, since the aim of an organizer of an event should be for every participant to be enjoying themselves.

Maybe you're right and 99.99% of all non-guildevents are badly organised and planned.

I'm sure that's it.

I've 'killed' two characters so far, I say killed, one was given a way back which I used since I missed him, however in his (Chrystans) death I was planning a big event with Andrek and Ataris to kill him and in doing that would have made the good, cinematic ending that everyone back then was expecting. Since it was known I was looking to kill him, however, without Andrek or Ataris knowing, in one event Chrystan bumped into Zaraj, so I whispered him saying we'd fight, and he'd win killing Chrystan. That gave everyone around who knew both characters a bit of a shock and the element of surprise OOC and IC that IMO a good death needs to have.

For the second, was my character Dahian, an experienced and intelligent General, someone who had survived many battles and wars. I could have done what most would do, and in one campaign which would have been vain and self glorifying fought like a hero and died bravely at the end of it. Instead over the last few months he developed a heart problem and eventually died of Plague... A truly miserable and non heroic death, though his favourite 'student' Amaryl did at least execute him honourably at the end.

Character deaths are best randomised IMO, even if you know that's going to be the end, telling everyone and making an event for it is, in my mind, vain and self glorifying.

That is just my opinion however, everyone RP's their characters as they wish, it's a good RP'er that can fit their style and RP their character into other characters style of RP.

As for scripted events, I'm not a fan, even if it's just a pre-set ending, I'd rather the ending was decided during the plot based on character decisions. But that doesn't always suit the aim of the plot, it's just my personal preference.

My character deaths weren't all that spectacular. Tythalos had his neck snapped at the Community of Light and Cyrdain hung himself infront of the Cathedral of Light. No followups or stories came from either, although admittedly the former of the two examples should have but it became an OOC mess.

Neither were scripted or planned. I've had many more characters die, however. Those two examples are merely the most recent. I do see the merit of generating further roleplay from a character dying but I strongly believe it shouldn't be forced down peoples throats or shoe-horned in. I am of the opinion of your character dying is a bigger deal to you than most others, so I try not to bother people with them.

Not that many notable people die in roleplay, usually alts/inactive characters anyway. Probably the best character death I have experienced was strangely enough a character I knew little about. Skarain's Chapter alt. It wasn't made a massive deal about but damn the emotion of it all got to me and we held a little funeral. It wasn't even OOCly known about until it happened. Young girl training to be a Witch-Hunter dragged off and torn helplessly apart by Ghouls out in Duskwood during an undead raid on the town of Raven Hill. It was quick, gruesome, very unexpected and quite 'realistic'. I liked that.

Skarain is great. *nod*

Dreth being murdered and running for his life was v cool RP, I hope Kitt got the desperation of the moment too. Again it wasn't planned and it moved a lot of people IC. I really miss RPing on him tho : /

Helmfrid wrote:My character deaths weren't all that spectacular. Tythalos had his neck snapped at the Community of Light and Cyrdain hung himself infront of the Cathedral of Light. No followups or stories came from either, although admittedly the former of the two examples should have but it became an OOC mess.

Neither were scripted or planned. I've had many more characters die, however. Those two examples are merely the most recent. I do see the merit of generating further roleplay from a character dying but I strongly believe it shouldn't be forced down peoples throats or shoe-horned in. I am of the opinion of your character dying is a bigger deal to you than most others, so I try not to bother people with them.

Not that many notable people die in roleplay, usually alts/inactive characters anyway. Probably the best character death I have experienced was strangely enough a character I knew little about. Skarain's Chapter alt. It wasn't made a massive deal about but damn the emotion of it all got to me and we held a little funeral. It wasn't even OOCly known about until it happened. Young girl training to be a Witch-Hunter dragged off and torn helplessly apart by Ghouls out in Duskwood during an undead raid on the town of Raven Hill. It was quick, gruesome, very unexpected and quite 'realistic'. I liked that.

Her death came as a shock and did actually leave a mark IC, hell even OOCly. Because as you say, it felt very realistic.