Dramatic Merits of Character Deaths!

Because the previous thread was derailed by people measuring their e-peens and taking turns saying that the other person was a bad RPer, I think it's worth starting a new thread about this much more interesting side-subject; Character deaths as a part of Roleplaying, used to create a story rather than end it!

I'll start this thread off by posting some quotes from the other thread that I liked;

Thelos wrote:All this talk about character deaths is getting me itchy to get some of my own killed. I've had an alt die once, but that's not really the same, nor are NPCs you designed with the exempt purpose of being defeated by the heroes.

This may sound morbid, but there seem to be so many interesting stories you can tell with the death of an "important" character. It gives other characters that were closely connected to it some really cool chances for development. There's nothing quite to shake up the status quo as a violent removal of some of the cast! I certainly experienced several emotional highs surrounding character deaths. I am thankful for having had the opportunity to roleplay such strong emotions, and hope to one day return the favor.

Death is one of the most powerful dramatic and narrative tools available. Don't be afraid to use it, but don't just use it callously either.

erwtenpeller wrote:This is why I've grown so fond of game-mastered, engineered events. In the end, the bad guy dies, the good guys win, and everyone ends up having a good time, nobody "looses".

Drustai wrote:Without risk, without fear, there is no immersion. That is what makes death interesting. Accepting death doesn't mean you want it to happen, it just means you accept it if it does happen. Playing an invincible character is boring. It's like using cheat codes in video games... what the hell is the point if you can just steamroll through everything without any challenge?

Jeanpierre/Ragnilde wrote:You're roleplaying. You're playing a story. Make it a story. Make it an assassination worth remembering. Make the plan have a gap or try to manipulate the target to be on the exact location at a given time to have him in the perfect position for the attack. Make it a challenge to persuade a man to be a hired gun or make it a challenge to be persuaded to be a hired gun.

If you're going to make such a dramatic impact on someone's story, it doesn't hurt taking time for it, making it a masterful piece of work for a great ending to a character's story. And it doesn't hurt, if you really think your char should try to murder another, to communicate first and try later, only to end up surprised and feeling he power emoted his way out of it.

I've seen and experienced my own character death's through the years. It has been said before in the last thread probably but they do make for good stories. The trick is to find a middle-ground without harming both parties which from when I played seemed to be a touchy no go for a lot of people and for understandable reasons on the most part.

Heroic stories are boring, give it a bit of a tragic twist and you may find yourself surprised. I understand most are afraid to lose what they commited to however but I think it's an experience everyone should try if they just engineer it right without having an outcome cesspit of drama.

The character deaths I remember, because there have been so few, barely had any effect except being mentioned at a later date as an example on people who died.

It offers an opportunity. For me, I incorporated the death of Adabella Nightshade as an integral part of Jean-Pierre's development.

Here's the collection of things I wrote regarding that:

Spoiler:

The death of someone close to one of my characters is often incorporated as the drop that tipped the bucket and changes my character.

But I do feel a death deserves a story... fitting for the character. With fitting, I imagine it is a death as the result of what the character is and does. This isn't a strong limitation, but it makes a tremendous difference storywise.

Very accurate, Jeanpierre. Losing my closest friend 2.5 years ago changed me for good, for the better and the worse.

To see your character develop so much, like I feel I have too as a result, is inspiring.

On several times my charecter should have died... I look back and think it was silly of me to 1.get in the situation and 2. Not kill him off.

It's a tough situation due to becoming so attached to a charecter, I suppose we are all attached to our babies! I suppose it makes it easier nowadays as we have race/faction changes you can start a new story. All good stories come to an end that's what makes them good!

I've never had the balls to do it, with this thread it helps appreciate it! If I ever did decide to kill of Kaleil I'd have it in battle and not Rez. That would be in my eyes fitting for my charecter.

Seiken just killed a character named Lukus about half an hour ago. A duel over insults and honour.

I feel quite the Hypocrite at present.

I'l go talk to vince.

And yes... it was dramatic, and fun. but rather well planned.

A free body eh? Must... resist... urge... to acquire it and... do tests ...on it.

Body Of Lukus Benjamin Sten stolen!

How's that for a dramatic Poster?

Of course i'd ask for permission before attempting to defile a dead char

Character deaths will always be a controversial subject. I read through the locked thread and this was proven!

I'm in two minds on the subject, my main, Grim, will die on my terms and at the time of my choosing, but as I've decided that I do tend to avoid silly situations where he'd die out of hand. I've come close on him, but (I think) I've managed to have valid and sensible reasons for him not dying so far.
He'll only die when I choose, because he's my main and I've invested a hell of a lot of time and effort into developing him as a character. That being said, I'm always more than happy to have him suffer horrendous injuries, and to RP them permanently. For example, he's got a permanent and quite severe limp from several nasty injuries to his left leg - a bullet wound deep in the thigh and more recently his knee-cap brutally shattered by a crazed mallet-wielding Forsaken torturer.

Alts however, I'm much happier about killing them off. My 'main' alt, Guk has dodged death in some pretty silly ways in the past (but hey, at least I'm aware of this) but more recently her tale has begun to draw to a close and she will, I hope, die soon!
I feel quite free having made that decision, its nice in a way to be able to RP a character without the fear of them dying and instead with acceptance that the tale is nearly told and a death will end it nicely.

I don't believe in characters deaths being very controversial.

Few things are more boring than a character that lives on forever, very rarely does the player manage to keep it developing and interesting.
People always talk about being afraid of change, me I'm more scared of things staying the same.

The hanging of Lysle by Maelmoor on the square in front of the Cathedral spawned a big rp event, and characters had something to talk about long after.

Assassination of Gogol is still being looked in to by Ironforge Thief Hunters and Guard.

Sergi got thrown off the Stonewrought dam by a angry Arathorian Prince, that would probably forever be haunted by the question whether the lunatic died or not.

Character deaths generally spawns a lot of more rp for others, and you get a chance to take on something new. Stop hanging on in panic to your characters, it's quite boring. Luckily though most of the really old members have either moved on to new characters or simply just left. New blood is what I like.

I prefer the idea of character death meaning something to the characters around them. Unfortunately some character deaths, whether they make sense or not, can seem pointless at the time.

When my oldest character, Aramus, passed away it had quite the impact on the people closest to him. An impact that is still RP'd over a year later, and I like that, because it brings more substance to the overall situation.

A lot of character deaths over the years could easily have been switched to "Oh yeah, he fell off a cliff" and I think it's a waste.

I think that the main conflict in Roleplay is that on one hand, we are all telling a story - a story which we wish to be interesting and fun, to have meaning, and to be memorable. We aren't merely simulating real life in the game - we like drama, we like adventure. On the other hand, we want our roleplay to be keep a measure of realism, else we end up without immersion.

In the end, we're all just looking for the right balance of the two. Some, like Gogol says, prefer the realism end of the spectrum, and some prefer, like Grim, to focus on making a good story.

I don't think either of those is 'good' or 'bad.' It's all about communicating with the people around you, those you roleplay with by choice or by accident. If one doesn't want to kill their character, that's valid, providing there is some realistic way to get out of the sticky situation at hand.

Aramus Galenos' death, as Ledgic mentioned above, has definitely been the character death that affected my roleplay the most. It wasn't sudden - it was an illness - but the death itself came at an unexpected time that seemed right to Led, and the characters surrounding Aramus had to deal with their grief, loss, regret at not being there, etc. In the end, I think that what makes a character death meaningful or not is the effect that it produces in other, still living, characters. To some extent, it's on the shoulders of not only the person dying, but those who are left (see JP's example) to bring meaning out of the situation.

The other death that has been impacting to my RP was Jaldir's. It wasn't planned at all, but was the result of a clash between the Sphere and the Old Town Syndicate. Lying on the ground and bleeding, Jaldir died from his wounds because he didn't have proper medical care despite the efforts of those around him. He didn't have to kill his character, and it took major balls to do so in my opinion, but it was in a situation that a) made sense, but also b) had the opportunity to have impact for the people around him. There were other people there, it was a time of high emotion and excitement, and it worked.

Plus, re-rolling is fun too.

I know character deaths create lots of cool RP. Some of the most awesome stuff to affect Grim as a character is due to the deaths of people close to him. His life was saved by a tauren named Malrock, who died shielding Grim from a hail of bullets. Both his mentors on the path of shamanism died (though one hadn't actually died, everyone just thought he had) and this also affected him deeply.

My issue is that I don't want my characters, especially my main, killed off out of hand by someone. Valerias has it dead right about my interests - I RP because I've grown up on a diet of fantasy novels and films and comics, and now I'm the main character in one, or I have a character who is the main character in one anyway. I don't want my character's death to be determined by someone on a whim, or for reasons that fundamentally have nothing to do with me or my characters.
The idea of Grim dying because some stranger pops out of the shadows and throws an axe at him for no reason horrifies me!

At the end of the day, it is a controversial subject, as evidenced by the last attempt at a thread on this subject. But also, it is a case of each to their own. I dont' believe in forcing my RP on others, and I expect others to not force their RP on me. If you want your characters to be 'realistic' and die at random, then I salute you, but I don't feel the same way about my characters

But yes, if you don't want your character to die, then avoid doing stupid things like killing guards or summoning demons in cities. Thats what I do, and thats why I can comfortably say that my character will die when I decide.

Gogol wrote:

Sergi got thrown off the Stonewrought dam by a angry Arathorian Prince, that would probably forever be haunted by the question whether the lunatic died or not.

This death is probably the one that has affected me the most in my time on Defias, Anaei was haunted by the thought that no body was found. That he could be anywhere!

Anaei/Magaskawee wrote:

Gogol wrote:

Sergi got thrown off the Stonewrought dam by a angry Arathorian Prince, that would probably forever be haunted by the question whether the lunatic died or not.

This death is probably the one that has affected me the most in my time on Defias, Anaei was haunted by the thought that no body was found. That he could be anywhere!

That's a bit two sided, since he could really be a dead char or alive and hiding/new identity/etc or dead.

What's wrong with a "pointless" death?

seriously, not everyone dies a hero.

the point should be the death.

it should hurt. its should leave a gaping hole, unfulfilled expectations and unatainable goals.

there is nothing glamarous about death.

To me, the most dramatic deaths would be the war-hero, the great general, being cut down like a dog, ruthlessly, uncaringly by a guy just trying to get his gold purse...

its makes a lot more sense then perfectly timed deaths, because well, why not?

R.I.P. Drethy.

So, heard about the duel last night and it got me thinking at work and I thought I would share my thought train.

So firstly 2 dudes exchange cross words and thus Duel to the death! And one guy barring some kind of interfearance is most likely to win, meaning the other dies. In the Defias Event this happened so good job all around. Bu let us think about this as a blue print and explore other out comes.

So the heroes duel to the death and hero one lays low hero hero 2. OOC hero 2 decides he wishes to live (and thus then brings us to OOC getting into the RP). So the obvious first step is that the victor is noble and offers quarter. OOC this could have been suggested and if Hero 1 agrees it is prob solved. But what if the Victor was a char that was unlikely to offer quarter for whatever reason, now he has OOC Pressure to spare the man. So in this case the problem is you are asking someone to perhaps act counter to what the char would do for what ever reason (perhaps there is hatred between them or he is just not mercyful) and is this truly fair on the other party if there char would want the kill.

A second big question this arises to me is to place yourself in the victors position if you RP a noble char. Do this yourselves in your heads if you RP as such. You would perhaps accept the mercy storyline and roll with it. Now ask yourself if hero 2 reported himself killable would you have killed him? The answers should be both alike perhaps if you were RPing withhout influence however I suspect the answers you would give are you would be merciful if you had to to keep the other char alive, yet if the choice was yours you would kill. This would then lead I hope to some soul searching of how noble your char really is

So thinking about this, there is the option for person 2 to beg or run from the fight. Now this is to me more pleasing for 2 reasons. Firstly you are not forcing a reaction onto the other party. Secondly you are in a duel of honour, the only honourable out comes are death or victory. The first option to me would be one where the defeated would wish for their life and to save face, a double "win" for the loser as not only does he keep his life, he keeps his honour. If your char places survival above honour then he should run. If he places his Honour before his life (as im sure many would proclaim to) then he should die. To me that is facing consequences of RP, not just hanging murderers but your char making a choice and learning to live with it.

Now the only problem I can see with this is if you are a noble watcher of the duel you migght think that the coward deserves death for his fleeing/begging and could then try to shoot him yourself or persuade hero 1 to run him through. If survival is guaranteed for the loser then this RP is rather pointless as nothing you could do or say could stop him (think guns miss firing or /w of this is closed RP ect)

So let me pose a second scenario.

Your hero sees a child being attacked by something evil. They quite likely go over and stop it, but what if there are 2 evil things, 5, 10. If we control tightly his survival then the brave paladin will face 10 of the foe to save the child any time and survive. But what if you hold a "Let the RP decide" approach to it. Suddenly the Noble paladin is asking himself this question... "if I fight I will probably die so do I fight?". Suddenly you have real char development rather than the controlled one man story Char development. Does the Paladin walk on? Do you want him to live that much?

What of the gang of evil offer to exchange the child for them self? If you know OOC you will be fine then you do it, but do you if you know it means death? Think about that a moment, in your heart of hearts what your char was faced with saving another for their IC existence.

There can be no heroes without fear of death, if you think of the famous last stands... the 300, Rourke's drift, El Alimo, The Battle of Maldon (more on that one later ). The heroism of the fighters is still seen in awe today because they are men who knew that death most likely awaited them and they did what they did anyway. It is a cult like thing, primal warrior worship almost and it is bad ass on an epic scale. So if we want that for our chars shouldn't we do so with the real danger of death. It cuts both ways too, in the last stand those who IC choose not to die can do what all soldiers who decide that do and rout.

Consequences.

And as for the battle of Maldon...

Then they turned from battle who wished not to be there: there were Odda's sons first in flight: Godric turned from battle and left that good one who many a horse often gave him. He leapt on a horse which his lord owned, on those trappings where he had no right, and his brothers both ran with him, Godwin and Godwig, heeded not battle but turned from that war and the woods sought, fled to that fastness, their lives saved, and more men than was fitting...

So Offa earlier that day had said to him in the methel-stead, when he held moot, that many spoke boldly there who after, at need, would not endure...

So the son of Aelfric boldened them forth, winter-young warrior words spoke, Aelfwine spoke then, valiantly said: "Remember the speeches we spoke at mead, when we our boast on the bench raised, heroes in hall about hard fight: now I may test who is keen. I will make my nobility known to all, that I was of great kin among Mercians; my old-father Ealhhelm was called, wise aldorman, world-happy. Nor among the people shall thegns blame me that I from this fyrd wish to flee, seek home, now that my prince lies hewn at the fight. That harm is most to me: he was both my kin and my lord....

Byrhtwold spoke, raised his shield-- he was an old retainer--shook his ash-spear; full boldly he taught warriors: "Thought must be the harder, heart be the keener, mind must be the greater, while our strength lessens. Here lies our prince all hewn, good one on grit. He may always mourn who from this warplay thinks now to turn. My life is old: I will not away; but I myself beside my lord, by so loved a man, think to lie."

(They died to a man those who remained.)

TL:DR - Waffle then Epic Poetry

Amaryl wrote:its makes a lot more sense then perfectly timed deaths, because well, why not?

Because boring.

I do sometimes regret not having let that chapterian shoot Delidah. It would have been an epic end for her. I set a dice for myself; under 20 would have meant death. Alas. It was not to be.

Sanara wrote:

Amaryl wrote:its makes a lot more sense then perfectly timed deaths, because well, why not?

Because boring.

That was actually how I killed of Marogg, my first orc.
While it was a bit boring for me. I doubt it was for most in my guild. It gave them something to fight for. Something to be angry and sad for.
Yes was boring for ME personally. But not for anyone else.
No one knew it would happen. I just let myself stay dead after a Wpvp battle, not accepting a res. Letting them come and find my body etc etc.

Read epic poetry and my waffle ^^

Muzjhath wrote:

Sanara wrote:

Amaryl wrote:its makes a lot more sense then perfectly timed deaths, because well, why not?

Because boring.

That was actually how I killed of Marogg, my first orc.
While it was a bit boring for me. I doubt it was for most in my guild. It gave them something to fight for. Something to be angry and sad for.
Yes was boring for ME personally. But not for anyone else.
No one knew it would happen. I just let myself stay dead after a Wpvp battle, not accepting a res. Letting them come and find my body etc etc.

That's a good result, but it does leave said result up to chance It would be a terrible shame if he died and people just sort of forgot about it shortly thereafter.

Personally, I'm more inclined towards having the rules of drama affect such things into making them more memorable as a whole.

Tbh, I generally see far more good RP around the unexpected death than the meticulously planned death.
Comparing to when Gnash the first died. He got a song and some cermonies in his honour. But from what I am aware of no real mourning.
And his death was very, very, planned.