Dramatic Merits of Character Deaths!

siegmund wrote:

Anaei/Magaskawee wrote:

Gogol wrote:

Sergi got thrown off the Stonewrought dam by a angry Arathorian Prince, that would probably forever be haunted by the question whether the lunatic died or not.

This death is probably the one that has affected me the most in my time on Defias, Anaei was haunted by the thought that no body was found. That he could be anywhere!

That's a bit two sided, since he could really be a dead char or alive and hiding/new identity/etc or dead.

Since I listed it as a death in this OOC topic, I believe the chance of it being two sided is eliminated.
Anaei I actually had his pink suit sent to Krickle, it's all in the suit.

erwtenpeller wrote:I do sometimes regret not having let that chapterian shoot Delidah. It would have been an epic end for her. I set a dice for myself; under 20 would have meant death. Alas. It was not to be.

hmm with monny having been so emotionaly unstable at this time had delidah actualy died. and with how monny has developed latley.. i would shudder to think what nasties she would try and do to the chapter had deli died..

Sanara wrote:

Muzjhath wrote:

Sanara wrote:

Amaryl wrote:its makes a lot more sense then perfectly timed deaths, because well, why not?

Because boring.

That was actually how I killed of Marogg, my first orc.
While it was a bit boring for me. I doubt it was for most in my guild. It gave them something to fight for. Something to be angry and sad for.
Yes was boring for ME personally. But not for anyone else.
No one knew it would happen. I just let myself stay dead after a Wpvp battle, not accepting a res. Letting them come and find my body etc etc.

That's a good result, but it does leave said result up to chance It would be a terrible shame if he died and people just sort of forgot about it shortly thereafter.

Personally, I'm more inclined towards having the rules of drama affect such things into making them more memorable as a whole.

Maybe, but the moment I enter a scripted event, I just can't get myself to care one iota about what's happening. I roleplay to take part in a story not to watch one unfold.

the more planned it is, the more planned it comes across, the faker the drama. and fake drama is boring. it is bland, it does nothing.

Tarvik's Ceasarian death was stupid, you saw the planning, you saw the symbolism, and it was all fake. there was no emotional reaction that came from the dying because there is no drama in meticulously planned deaths.

If I know someone is going to die when entering an event, i can't care. I can pretend to care ICly which i will, but it's just 2-dimensional.

being surprised, being shocked, being pulled apart is what creates honest drama, and a heroic tableau isn't honest for me. it is boring, it is predictable it's a farce.

Amaryl wrote:the more planned it is, the more planned it comes across, the faker the drama. and fake drama is boring. it is bland, it does nothing.

So... Every movie, every TV-show, every play, heck, every book ever written... All bland because of the carefully planned-out drama unfolding?

If a planned event is bland and boring, that's because it was poorly written and planned. Not because it was planned.

erwtenpeller wrote:

Amaryl wrote:the more planned it is, the more planned it comes across, the faker the drama. and fake drama is boring. it is bland, it does nothing.

So... Every movie, every TV-show, every play, heck, every book ever written... All bland because of the carefully planned-out drama unfolding?

If a planned event is bland and boring, that's because it was poorly written and planned. Not because it was planned.

There's a difference between something that's interactive and something that is just viewed.
If you just view it you participate in a very different way than if you interact with it.

And the thing with highly scripted events is that people who just participate but don't do big things generally just feel like setpieces. "Okay, I'm here... but why? I don't care for anything" Which will generally end up with, in the case of a death event. "Oh, he's planning to go out with a boom ... Oh look. Crap maybe I should feel sad now! But... in a posetive way since the character died in glory while saving the day".
Ending up with a character reaction that is far more faked than a "Oh shit WHAT THE FUCK HAPPENED!" that will come with a death that from the player might have been planned to happen for a month, yet not prepared for in a specific event but just thrown into something else. And suddenly you have a character who is just gone. ANd you gotta deal with that. You can't have prepared your character reaction, nothing. You just have to react as your character would with nothing preplanned.
This is generally FAR more satisfying for the people around the dead character. Than a "Okay, there he died. This is how I react." Instead of going with "What? WAit? What do I do now?" On the death that you don't see coming.

Not saying planned deaths can't be good. They can be, but in my experience the death that just COMES and you have to react to is far better than those you see comming and no matter if you try it or not you prepare and start planning for.

That's the bigger difference between a drama you watch, and one you participate in.
Just take an example for real life, most people have had a surprise party prepared for them. And more often than not someone spills the thing before. And you stand there. Having to fake your surprise. Most people that know you will see you fake the surprise. etc etc etc. Instead of the time you just GET there, knowing nothing. and BOOM! It hits you in the face and it is AWESOME!

You can WATCH things, and accept them being planned out. They can do things more or less well, but the planning out won't hurt you. You're just a viewer, not a participant. It's when you participate you dislike when planning feels to obvious.

Same, the best thing for RP is reacting to things you did not expect. Character death is one of the biggest things that happens in RP due to how rare it generally is. So having that spoilt by figuring it out is really sad.

And this is why you keep secrets, and don't telegram your plans and plots days ahead of time.

erwtenpeller wrote:

Amaryl wrote:the more planned it is, the more planned it comes across, the faker the drama. and fake drama is boring. it is bland, it does nothing.

So... Every movie, every TV-show, every play, heck, every book ever written... All bland because of the carefully planned-out drama unfolding?

Most are yes. The moment I can smell an heroic sacrifice coming from a mile away, it does nothing to me, the moment I can predict a timely rescue of the protagonist in the knick of time, it does nothing to me, since i've never once feared for him. That is the problem with chekov's gun. It's boring, because i can see the planning, and thus stop wondering, thus stop being excited, thus stop being surprised, thus stop caring.

you need to play with the audience, pull on emotional strings in a subtle way so we don't know we're being pulled(or don't mind).

and that's just where you're a passive component, where all you want to do is just absorb what you're getting.

but in RP, I am not just the audience, where i am also a player, I want to get the feeling of control, the feeling where my characters actions, my characters emotions, dreams, goals, fears, will in the end influence the path the story is taking and planned/scripted events will fail in that 99.9% of the time. Simply because we're relegated to a side-show trying to make the main-characters(the scripters) look cool. and as such the event does nothing to me, or my character, because our presence doesn't even matter.

Thelos wrote:And this is why you keep secrets, and don't telegram your plans and plots days ahead of time.

You know when you enter a scripted event, and when you don't the moment you start RPing in the event.

and most grand deaths are more obvious then chekov's gun...

a well planned event is only loosely planned. A properly run rp event is left open to change from the players taking parts actual ic choices.

Grim wrote:a well planned event is only loosely planned. A properly run rp event is left open to change from the players taking parts actual ic choices.

This is very true, and the problem with most death events. The death can never be stopped. And it is generally noticable.

It seems to me that most discussion in this topic, supposedly related to "unplanned" deaths, are actually planned. Please, let me explain it. While we can all agree that scripted events are planned, I would say that if you have decided that you want you character to die and get in a situation where it could happen, it's still planned. It might be shocking for those prescent, but it's still -planned-, even if the exact circumstances weren't prepared or known to you before. What we should ask ourselves, I think, is what of the truly unexpected deaths?

Imagine the following:
Your character, a lawful and good citizen walks through the mage quarter in stormwind. When passing close to the mage tower, suddenly a crash is heard, and just a moment later, a ageing human land on you in a shatter of glass.
Would you have survived the 40 odd yard fall that the mage had done to end the life he had enough of? Likely not. It was a character that you had not even remotely expected would die, and had long been playing. It would be a random death for you, nothing you had no control at all over, yet what would with any reasonable thinking would happen to you. Would you accept it? This is an example of a possible death with no intent to actually harm another character.
There are also plenty of ways that random situations would reasonable kill you, but where the intent would have been to kill:
A criminal in debt, to get killed himself if he does not get the money at the end of the night, have climbed up on a roof. With him is his trusted rifle, that he have been using for many years and know by heart. He spots you, someone who to his eyes looks wealthy enough to give him what he needs. Carefully he aims the rifle at the back of your head, squeezing the trigger, and with a bang the shot dart out of the barrel.

Those are the situations that I think are hard. And what those is, are different to everyone. Maybe the situations you think people "cheat" death is just things that they feel got out of hand, with unreasonable responses from other parties? If you get in a situation that you feel is no fault of your own, do you as readily accept true death?

Its all down to personal preference. Some people love everything being totally random, others prefer it totally linear. I like a compromise in terms of events, though i generally refuse to force others to die!

Imagine the following:
Your character, a lawful and good citizen walks through the mage quarter in stormwind. When passing close to the mage tower, suddenly a crash is heard, and just a moment later, a ageing human land on you in a shatter of glass.

There are also plenty of ways that random situations would reasonable kill you, but where the intent would have been to kill:
A criminal in debt, to get killed himself if he does not get the money at the end of the night, have climbed up on a roof. With him is his trusted rifle, that he have been using for many years and know by heart. He spots you, someone who to his eyes looks wealthy enough to give him what he needs. Carefully he aims the rifle at the back of your head, squeezing the trigger, and with a bang the shot dart out of the barrel.

Personally, I'd probably be irritated by either of these situations and wrangle some far-fetched way out of it. Especially on my main character!
As I've said before, its ALL down to personal preference, and speaking of myself and my own personal preferences... I would be offended that someone RP'd that without a thought for my opinion on the matter.
Again, I'd have the utmost respect for people who would accept such a random death IC.
I don't want 100% realism, I like realism in terms of aiding immersion - if I wanted 100% realism I'd paint myself green and start hitting passers-by with an axe and see what happened

Grim wrote:Its all down to personal preference. Some people love everything being totally random, others prefer it totally linear. I like a compromise in terms of events, though i generally refuse to force others to die!

I agree, that's what I think myself. The problem is that you never know what the other part consider deadly to them, and thus taking away a choice. I think we can all agree that it's never fun when you feel that you have no control over what will happen to your character. The potion you are forced to swallow might be allergic to you, the kick you receive in the stomach may tear up a recent wound and cause fatal internal bleeding. And all the time you just wanted to force the truth out of the character, or rough him up to not mess with you.

That said, I from now on will accept any reasonable death that come across my characters. Reasonable in the sense that the event actually makes sense.

Grim wrote:
Personally, I'd probably be irritated by either of these situations and wrangle some far-fetched way out of it. Especially on my main character!
As I've said before, its ALL down to personal preference, and speaking of myself and my own personal preferences... I would be offended that someone RP'd that without a thought for my opinion on the matter.
Again, I'd have the utmost respect for people who would accept such a random death IC.
I don't want 100% realism, I like realism in terms of aiding immersion - if I wanted 100% realism I'd paint myself green and start hitting passers-by with an axe and see what happened

That's what I've been getting at! While some may like and accept those things, others will find it utterly awful and perhaps even as poweremoting. We can't reasonable expect everyone to feel the same about what is reasonable and fair, and until then deaths will be a sensitive subject.

Muzjhath wrote:

erwtenpeller wrote:

Amaryl wrote:the more planned it is, the more planned it comes across, the faker the drama. and fake drama is boring. it is bland, it does nothing.

So... Every movie, every TV-show, every play, heck, every book ever written... All bland because of the carefully planned-out drama unfolding?

If a planned event is bland and boring, that's because it was poorly written and planned. Not because it was planned.

Blah blah blah

Some more people going blah blah blah

...This is just everyone talking about how much it sucks when an RP plot is poorly planned and executed. If it's done right and designed for interactive storytelling, it will be engaging.

Like so:

Grim wrote:a well planned event is only loosely planned. A properly run rp event is left open to change from the players taking parts actual ic choices.

Thelos wrote:And this is why you keep secrets, and don't telegram your plans and plots days ahead of time.

Exigua wrote:
I agree, that's what I think myself. The problem is that you never know what the other part consider deadly to them, and thus taking away a choice. I think we can all agree that it's never fun when you feel that you have no control over what will happen to your character. The potion you are forced to swallow might be allergic to you, the kick you receive in the stomach may tear up a recent wound and cause fatal internal bleeding. And all the time you just wanted to force the truth out of the character, or rough him up to not mess with you.

I'm confused here. How are those examples taking away a choice?
Unless the allergy has been pre-established and the potion expressly given because the man was allergic, the potion will only kill, if the player drinking it, decides it kills him. that's not removing a choice. That's making one. The one giving the potion just got his crime elevated from torture to murder.. and you're now in a completely different situation... i don't see this as a bad thing. i dont see how it takes away choice? since the choice of dying always lies with the one who dies.(or remains alive)

I could make a mortal enemy by calling a Lady miss and insulting her deeply... even though i didn't mean to insult her, i don't feel like a choice was taken from me.. you just... react and carry on..

erwtenpeller wrote:
...This is just everyone talking about how much it sucks when an RP plot is poorly planned and executed. If it's done right and designed for interactive storytelling, it will be engaging.

No, it isn't. it isn't about planning and execution, how this is done well and this is done badly. It is about preference. and just relegating: well this is badly planned that's why you don't like it. Is completely missing the point of the argument, how some people prefer planned character deaths compared to others that like spontaneous, surprising deaths. And why -we- don't like one form or prefer the other form. if you wish to disseminate that into: well lol the event was just badly planned and executed, you're free to do so, but then obviously I would have the same opinion as Sanara, wouldn't I? And yet we don't...

How come? :O must be badly planned an-oh wait...hmm..

your second sentence brings up something that can be put into this discussion. Omg... awesome.

Interactive storytelling... Yeah that's the most important thing in RP. Here's the thing: I don't find events interactive when the ending is fixed, Like you know when a character is planned to die at the end of an event.

Amaryl wrote:

Exigua wrote:
I agree, that's what I think myself. The problem is that you never know what the other part consider deadly to them, and thus taking away a choice. I think we can all agree that it's never fun when you feel that you have no control over what will happen to your character. The potion you are forced to swallow might be allergic to you, the kick you receive in the stomach may tear up a recent wound and cause fatal internal bleeding. And all the time you just wanted to force the truth out of the character, or rough him up to not mess with you.

I'm confused here. How are those examples taking away a choice?
Unless the allergy has been pre-established and the potion expressly given because the man was allergic, the potion will only kill, if the player drinking it, decides it kills him. that's not removing a choice. That's making one.

Maybe I was unclear, but yes, I meant that it was something you had pre-established for your character, yet your "capturer" might be unaware.

Calling a lady miss is a choice, yes, but does not directly cause the death of your character. If said lady then try to murder you, then, depending on how it happen, you might have a choice in the outcome there too.

As I said, all those things are very subjective, and differ from one player to another, that's what makes this hard.

Again I still don't see how you're removing a choice from the player?

It is the player that can decide to write /e starts convulsing due to a severe reaction from the poison. his eyes start bulging until they pop and his chest bursts open, his liquified lungs leaking out his chest cavity... seems Bob died... how unfortunate

or something similar, they decided the potion would kill them, and so it did.

Or do you actuallly feel that such could remove the choice of a player to live? since the wound could not burst... the dosage could not be fatal...

Amaryl wrote:No, it isn't. it isn't about planning and execution, how this is done well and this is done badly. It is about preference. and just relegating: well this is badly planned that's why you don't like it. Is completely missing the point of the argument, how some people prefer planned character deaths compared to others that like spontaneous, surprising deaths. And why -we- don't like one form or prefer the other form. if you wish to disseminate that into: well lol the event was just badly planned and executed, you're free to do so, but then obviously I would have the same opinion as Sanara, wouldn't I? And yet we don't...

Everyone makes plans for their characters. Everyone wants to tell their stories. Generally, when interacting with others while telling it, it is good to be able to take different paths or entirely new ones as the story is bent to places you may not have expected it to go; So you make new plans. But you still make plans.

Without plans your character has no goals or motivations and becomes a hollow shell. Truly engaging.

Interactive storytelling... Yeah that's the most important thing in RP. Here's the thing: I don't find events interactive when the ending is fixed, Like you know when a character is planned to die at the end of an event.

Then the person planning these events, telling that story, is doing a poor job at it.

Amaryl wrote:Again I still don't see how you're removing a choice from the player?

It is the player that can decide to write /e starts convulsing due to a severe reaction from the poison. his eyes start bulging until they pop and his chest bursts open, his liquified lungs leaking out his chest cavity... seems Bob died... how unfortunate

or something similar, they decided the potion would kill them, and so it did.

Or do you actuallly feel that such could remove the choice of a player to live? since the wound could not burst... the dosage could not be fatal...

I know very well how it could be played out, but I think you're missing my point. The discussion here is about what extents people will avoid outcomes that would be reasonable if they stayed true to their character. You bring up points that would make you have a choice in the outcome, but what if makes your character swallow down the entire content of the potion, and keep in mind that this would not be fatal to a normal character; someone not allergic to one of the compounds in the potion. What if aims a hard kick to your exposed stomach while you are unconscious on the ground; while you are just getting better after intense treatment from a stab there. To make the example extreme; watches the 2 meter boulder fall down the pass just when you walk below it. You could -technically- argue that it was your choices in getting to these situations in the first place, and I couldn't agree more. But sometimes unexpected things may happen, things that you could not reasonable predict, that would kill you if you acted true to your character.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not defending being unkillable, and I do think death is a very powerful tool, but people have very different ideas about what they will accept.

erwtenpeller wrote:
Everyone makes plans for their characters. Everyone wants to tell their stories.

Not everyone wants to tell their story. I don't want people to tell me their story when RPing. I want to -make- a story with -others-. I want others to let me help make -their- story in a way they don't expect, imagine it. and sometimes that includes dying.

some people do want to tell their story and that is fine. but it doesn't engage me, I'll read a good book or watch a Nicolas Cage movie instead.

Then the person planning these events, telling that story, is doing a poor job at it.

Why is he? Just because I don't like it, doesn't mean others can't. There isn't one perfect way to lead events and "plan" events. There isn't a universal standard for all to enjoy. Some people like witnessing the heroic death of someone they rped with, and hope for it to be as glorious as possible, and are fine aiding that goal with their RP, that's another form of interactivity then I'm searching for.

simply saying you're doing a poor job, is just soo short-sighted, I might start using it, instead of figuring out why something isn't working, or why I prefer certain things over others.

Is this forum-drama over ingame-drama? Overly dramatic, I say.

Jokes aside, I remember the death of Gogol Irondawn well, since he only told us to attend to Senate since a surprise were to come. And I certainly didn't expect him to get shot or anything, which was rather intense and to some extent, dramatic. And I usually don't even like drama, but that part was well carried out.

I think this entire thread can be boiled down into a single sentance:

"Everyone likes different things."

Any other comment is unnecessary!