Re: Event idea: 'The Anethionean dominion'

by **Aldric Essalus Helmfrid** Sun Dec 18, 2011 4:43 am

Ezlbag wrote:

In other news, i want to get the cartel involved, ill send people a PM later or something.

Sounds good Ezlbag. The Cartel where in mind when planning certain areas of this plot.

by **Kittrina** Sun Dec 18, 2011 5:35 am

Blades would be very interested in being involved in some capacity.

by **Gahalla** Sun Dec 18, 2011 9:27 am

Valestrion. Like Ezlbag said, the whole premise is that the entire episcopality is suspect. And not just the bishops, but all archdeacons, all abbots, all military- and court-chaplains. That's not saying they are all guilty... just that noone knows for certain that they aren't.

The problem isn't that there's no faith in the church but that the political powers doesn't know how much faith they dare to give the church.

And again, the logical premise is that it's the nobility that pushes for this. They want a puppet on the council and lo and behold... the chapter wish for influence. The king need not be directly involved at all. Just the threat of going to the king.

I know this premise in it's base form will affect the DoL. But if you'd like an exception for you and your guild we could always spin up some political protection.
Geldar stating that "Brigadier-General Drayke of the Holy Brigade is above suspicion" would work ideally. It makes trying to get rid off you too much trouble for the -real- villains in this plot. Since that's not what they want (and a number of them are probably personal friends to your char anyways) it's not worth trying to discredit you or your organisation.

The only involvement you'd "have to" take part in would be treading a bit carefully IC. Staying below the radar as is. Obedient enough to not make them bother removing you, but otherwise as actively oppposing and/or supporting as you wish.

Logically, most DoL members are probably way too low on the church hierarchy to be the targets of this.

But we're early enough in planning to be able to organise whichever role you wish your guild to have in all this. Wether you want to actively oppose, flee or be the shining heroes standing as the last official bulwark of church purity we can organise it.
So just tell us how you'd like to see DoL partake and the lot of us can surely incorporate that into the plot.

Geldar:

Gahalla raises some good points, but I still do not believe people will OOCly agree with someone coming to us from the outside and telling us how to operate or who to appoint as Minister, it is not how we work or have worked in the past.

You've completely lost me here.

The council as an organisation has been pressured from the outside before. Individual ministers have been forced to resign due to corruption. I mean the archcultist Melnerag was for a time sitting on the council before he was exposed.
Similarily, at no less than two occassions has a mob forced the entire council to resign. If I don't recall incorrectly, weren't you part of one such mob?

Also, isn't both Jarric and Fort on the council IC essentially because the House of Nobles and the Church respectively practically demands a seat each?

Moreover, we're talking a temporary position for an IC plot. It's not like anyone is forcing a permanent member onto you. Just asking you to play along for a little while for the sake of rp. Which is the entire purpose of the council, is it not? Facilitation of events too big for small groups to do on their own?

The way I see it is that it makes the council a much deeper and interesting organisation IC by acknowledging that it isn't all-powerful and that sometimes it have to bend over for the sake of politics. There's no such thing as absolute authority after all.

So I don't see why people would object oocly at all. It is neither unprecedented, outside the scope of the council or catching you unawares. And just like with Valestrion and the DoL, if there are considerations or things you wish to be incorporated. Voice them now so the lot of us can take them into account and plan for them.

by **Thelos** Sun Dec 18, 2011 10:42 am

Borian/Gohman wrote:

I would say; Agree on how the corrupted Bishops absence would mean to the city. Then skip the OOC talking here, and let the Chapter attempt to turn the city

This sounds reasonable to me. I say we go to work on making any unrest feel as real as possible by pumping out extra rumors and having more and more characters believe them during the course of the month, all to work to an explosive finale in the lieu of "The jig is up" Fortesgue had planned, as in an actual offical announcement on the Cathedral stairs, and then see what direction the ball rolls from there. If the Chapter then succeeds in taking over the city for a while I will be as a player very excited to play that scenario out, but I want to really feel the reality of the situation first. So read this as a constructive critisism: The build up to this is equally if not more important than the actual event itself, as the players and their characters really need to feel the tension build up and then explode in some form, only for the Anethions to come in and build something from the ashes. First, I need to see the ashes!

This is what I meant to say with my comment that this event isn't as firmly entrenched in the lore as you sometimes make it out to be (which again, isn't a bad thing per se). If Northshire Abbey is torched by Deathwing, that's a very real and concrete visual thing to react to. I mean, it's right there, smoldering ashes. Civil unrest though is much more ethereal. All we've got is this one NPC with a cover up story: There are no mobs of rioting NPCs or even as much as a whisper on the streets. We as players need to provide said whispers and unrest: We need to be doing the actual torching. Putting it negatively, what I definately dont want to see is Anethions swooping in and taking over without any build up and whatsoever and people going "...There was unrest? Really? What riots?"

I'm not sure who made the suggestion but an oldschool "Beeldenstorm" looting or at least rioting around the Cathedral as an eveng leading up to the Anethion takeover could be a powerful tool to help with that.

by **Kil'drakor** Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:02 am

I think an event in which we ask people outside the guild to roll level one humans with us who storm, loot and vandalize the Cathedral of Light would be a solution. It would be a good event to illustrate this unrest. I don't think we can demand from people to do so with their main characters, as those are often played as either nobility or the 'good guys'.

by **Mandui** Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:04 am

Borian/Gohman wrote:I would say; Agree on how the corrupted Bishops absence would mean to the city. Then skip the OOC talking here, and let the Chapter attempt to turn the city. But such shouldn't be as easy as you're attempting to claim it to be, as in such of an crucial point both the council and king should be very suspicious of uprising organisation. And keep in mind that criminals would take advantage of this aswell. Others then that is just your quality of RP - debate - creativity, against the others, and see if you succeed or not.

It seems that most people ignored this sadly. It's a very valid point and something to take into serious consideration. Believe it or not, there was a time where massive events such as this, events which altered the usual, everyday flow of the server's RP life, happened without even remotely as much OOC planning or discussion as is the case now. There were no forums to do so for starters and those events not only occurred, but were highly successful as well, having most of the participants enjoy themselves immensely. We didn't even need a lore twist given by Blizzard to have them happen. I'm sure that most of those who have been around in DB for longer than 3 years remember those events with fondness.

Now, how or why were they so successful? Because they came naturally, through RP. What mattered was the actual interaction of characters and their proper use of skills that define and make them who they ICly are, such as diplomacy, charisma, reputation, etc. There used to be dark overlords/criminal masterminds/fanatic zealots that managed to somehow cause such a situation solemnly through RP and by being good "dungeon masters" of sorts, or simply excellent roleplayers who were able to draw people's attention in a very skillful and charismatic way, thus achieving their participation in the plot. Barely anyone complained or panicked at the face of such changes, precisely because they occurred smoothly and gradually in a manner that made sense.

I don't know why but people seem to have forgotten how enjoyable such a procedure can be and how essential to RP it is too. This is what makes RP an experience worth having, rather than a scripted, predetermined plot with a beginning, a middle and an end.

Don't get me wrong, some OOC coordination is always a good thing, so people can meet in-world at certain times etc. But initializing such an event takes more than a yes or a no to a post on a thread. It's only natural that some people will object or even flat out refuse to take part in it, since it barely makes any IC sense for them.

Whoever desires to have such a large scale event happen should have to do more than just suggest its creation or lay a plan out for its execution. They should be able to convince the majority that it's worth their time and that it will be an enjoyable experience. However, they should do so not with OOC words but with IC actions. There's no point in tearing the whole thing down to bits and keep discussing about what "could/should/would happen if...". Get in-world and do it instead. That's what RP is supposed to be about.

Edit: Thelos, stop posting while I'm typing! But yes, glad to see other people realizing it Very Happy

by **Kil'drakor** Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:22 am

I don't think the OP was trying to orchestrate every single detail on this forum, but simply trying to see if anybody is interested in this being played out, and to show that he is open to suggestion. As I can judge from the 10+ pages it has generated quite some interest.

As far as your nostalgic reminiscence goes, I think that's irrelevant projection.

by **Mandui** Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:28 am

Gnash wrote:I don't think the OP was trying to orchestrate every single detail on this forum, but simply trying to see if anybody is interested in this being played out, and to show that he is open to suggestion. As I can judge from the 10+ pages it has generated quite some interest.

As far as your nostalgic reminiscence goes, I think that's irrelevant projection.

If you actually read the 10 pages instead of just seeing them as "quite some interest", you'll realize that my post is anything but irrelevant and it doesn't even apply to this case alone, but to many other events that happened/were to happen but never did. Besides, I'm not the only one seeing it that way, so I doubt it's just me and my "nostalgic reminiscence".

by **Kil'drakor** Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:43 am

I did read the ten pages. And I can count on one hand how many people actually objected.

by **Mandui** Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:52 am

Gnash wrote:I did read the ten pages. And I can count on one hand how many people actually objected.

I could also call your claims irrelevant, but you're entitled to your opinion, just as I am. And I think the more feedback there is, the better Very Happy

by **John Helsythe Amaltheria** Sun Dec 18, 2011 11:58 am

Believe it or not, there was a time where massive events such as this, events which altered the usual, everyday flow of the server's RP life, happened without even remotely as much OOC planning or discussion as is the case now.

Away with the stupid scripting and planning! Just gogogogogo

Other than that, grand idea. I'll try to participate with the crew one way or another.

by **Valestrion** Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:00 pm

I think most of you are missing what I am trying to say here. I'm not threatening to take the Disciples out of the event. If I was doing so, I wouldn't be making as many posts about it. I'm tring to find a way to have the Disciples included in a way that's fair for the Disciples and consistent with the fundamental Disciples concept of being a well-respected holy order of knights supporting the Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me not to want to change the basic description of the guild, and I don't feel I'm being given much scope for doing that. The obvious ways for the Disciples to be involved would be:

a) Helping the Church to manage the situation so that dissent never occurs.
b) Being fairly independent of the Bishops, be the organisation the people turn to rather than the Chapter
c) Leading the people in the fight back against the Chapter.

However, in the first two cases the event would never happen and, for the last, we are being told that the conditions of the event are that we are associated with the leadership so the people won't want to fight with us.

Thank you, Lexgrad, at least, for making some suggestions. Most of them don't really help, given our fundamental guild concept. However, one or two have some merit.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could take the guild out of SW for a while, until its all done (this would mean missing out on the most exciting bit of CoL lore blizz has given us)

If we did that we would lose the respect of the people.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could stay in SW and cover your eyes and ignore it

Similarly, we would be failing the people if we did this

Lexgrad wrote:
You could Join in and not get involved with either side and go on the street preaching peace and the virtues (who knows, you may get new recruits this way)

Some of our people could certainly do this, but most of us are knights, not preachers. We wouldn't be able to sit by and watch the Chapter inquisition.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could go along with the chapter as you want to prove you are clean and take the rap afte rthe event ic for not doing enough.

If we did that we would lose the respect of the people.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could work with the rebels and take the rap ic in the event for maybe being twilight.

If we did that we would lose the respect of the people.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could work against the chapter in absolute secrecy and not be found (or maybe found and dragged to an Anethionean court)

We could do this, but I am not sure what we could in absolute secrecy if the people aren't behind us. If I could identify something to do, I'd rather do it openly than in secret.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could work for the rebels in a supporting manner, giving out bread and water, healing the wounded.

This one has some merit, if the people will accept our help. Showing humility is consistent with being a Disciple, and perhaps we are sufficiently separate from the Church leadership for the people to accept our help in this way where they will not accept our leadership.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could talk to the chapter about being ic exiled and to return later as martyrs for the anti-anethionean cause.

There are few enough Disciples as it is without killing some of them off.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could petition the houses/council/courts to try and legally remove Os.

The only law in this case would be the King. If the King chooses to appoint Osmand to some kind of role, there's not really much we can do about it legally.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could pay assassins to try and assassinate Os.

Assassination is not our style and, besides, Osmand is an ex-Disciple. I suspect Osmand is just a figure head and removing him personally is only going to make things worse.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could set up a split in your guild with half falling with the rebels and half with the chapter. After the event there would be mistrust and a whole bucket of RP.

I have no wish to destroy the guild from the inside.

Lexgrad wrote:
You could tell SI7/chapter ooc it is fine for your char to be investgated (see where that goes)

This is the "get locked up and tortured" option I have already indicated seemed to be the main option open to us. Thanks to your help, Lex, I think I can now see another option to get us through this with our reputation in tact.

However, I still have two other concerns.

1) We don't know where the Benedictus storyline is going. This event extrapolates the storyline in a way that may later prove to be inconsistent.
2) The whole concept still doesn't sound realistic to me. I just can't see the people turning to the Chapter.

by **Gahalla** Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:06 pm

In a way I agree with you Mandui. Ideally all of this would play out entirely ingame with only minor ooc coordination.

But as Valestrion has pointed out, not all of us agree on the IC premises. This differing interpretation causes some trouble. If the chapter and DoL (just an example) come at this working from different perspectives, then rping together have a potential obstacle on a meta/ooc level.

And as Geldar pointed out, not all of us agree on the ooc level on the workings. If people objects to the council being pressured IC oocly, then the entire thing gets stopped in it's tracks. The people in power cannot be IC coerced into certain paths. Which means the entire events ends up being the chapter vocally protesting and demanding and noone listening to them.

To make the thing you suggest work, which I'd love to see, we must all agree on the premises and allow IC to take us where the IC takes us. No matter who we are.

by **Geldar** Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:17 pm

At one end of the spectrum I'd see the Chapter becoming hated and feared even more than they currently are, which would be a lot. They'd be unlawfully attacked in the streets during their preachings if there was enough backup to boost success in such matters. They'd not be trusted and a lot of their IC community backing would go down the pan. They'd need to walk the streets heavily guarded and mainly pull back to Northshire entirely for a while where they may even see a few riots or attacks. Many may lose faith in Anethioneanism and turn against them, some may splinter into anti-Anethioneanism cults or groups and so on. Bottom line, the Chapter will have a Kingdom to deal with, not only Cultists.

That is the most realistic of things that would happen after their dominion, its more or less how things -are- currently for them. The second one seems to me as a option if the entire Kingdom suddenly got converted/brainwashed.

The council as an organisation has been pressured from the outside before. Individual ministers have been forced to resign due to corruption. I mean the archcultist Melnerag was for a time sitting on the council before he was exposed.

It has always been pressured from the inside from since I know, not from the outside. And Ministers have always been removed after internal investigations.

Similarily, at no less than two occassions has a mob forced the entire council to resign. If I don't recall incorrectly, weren't you part of one such mob?

That was just once and it was pre-planned event on which both sides agreed upon the terms as they were acceptable for either parties.

Also, isn't both Jarric and Fort on the council IC essentially because the House of Nobles and the Church respectively practically demands a seat each?

No, House of Nobles and Church have nothing to do with where they come from. They are part of the Council to fill in for the positions they currently work under, not because they are sent from either of the above mentioned organizations or have it demanded.

Moreover, we're talking a temporary position for an IC plot. It's not like anyone is forcing a permanent member onto you. Just asking you to play along for a little while for the sake of rp. Which is the entire purpose of the council, is it not? Facilitation of events too big for small groups to do on their own?

Even so, where is our say in this? What is going to stop people from doing the same afterwards with pulling the 'we're above you card, now play along'? People are uncomfortable with someone who doesn't work with them or even RP with them to suddenly become their superior.

The way I see it is that it makes the council a much deeper and interesting organisation IC by acknowledging that it isn't all-powerful and that sometimes it have to bend over for the sake of politics. There's no such thing as absolute authority after all.

The way I see it, we're being set up with a mess that far outweights the fun of the event. And again I ask, where is our say in this? Considering all the action that we seemingly have to agree upon like the DoL and Valestrion has said and raised as fair points, what can we do in turn to counteract this besides bending over?

So I don't see why people would object oocly at all. It is neither unprecedented, outside the scope of the council or catching you unawares. And just like with Valestrion and the DoL, if there are considerations or things you wish to be incorporated. Voice them now so the lot of us can take them into account and plan for them.

From what I read, its much like what Valestrion says. We have to bend how we work and what we do and more or less remain without a say in the matters until this is over for the sake of everything, just my 2c.

by **Gahalla** Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:26 pm

Valestrion wrote:I think most of you are missing what I am trying to say here. I'm not threatening to take the Disciples out of the event. If I was doing so, I wouldn't be making as many posts about it. I'm tring to find a way to have the Disciples included in a way that's fair for the Disciples and consistent with the fundamental Disciples concept of being a well-respected holy order of knights supporting the Church. It doesn't seem unreasonable to me not to want to change the basic description of the guild, and I don't feel I'm being given much scope for doing that. The obvious ways for the Disciples to be involved would be:

a) Helping the Church to manage the situation so that dissent never occurs.
b) Being fairly independent of the Bishops, be the organisation the people turn to rather than the Chapter
c) Leading the people in the fight back against the Chapter.

However, in the first two cases the event would never happen and, for the last, we are being told that the conditions of the event are that we are associated with the leadership so the people won't want to fight with us.

Thank you, Lexgrad, at least, for making some suggestions. Most of them don't really help, given our fundamental guild concept. However, one or two have some merit.

...

1) We don't know where the Benedictus storyline is going. This event extrapolates the storyline in a way that may later prove to be inconsistent.
2) The whole concept still doesn't sound realistic to me. I just can't see the people turning to the Chapter.

Of course it is not unreasonable for you to want the disciples to remain the disciples.

How would you feel about standing as an organisation representating what the church should be? Remaining openly in society and working to restore people's (and above all: politic's) trust in Church leadership. But largely toothless in regards to publically stopping the inquisition.
You're protected politically from being targets of the inquisition/SI:7 but the price is that you cannot legally step in to stop all of them. You can defend individuals against whom there is no evidence, but it is a uphill battle to try to stop all trials.
And when the Anethionean crisis is over, the disciples stand ready to step in and fill the gap. Once more restoring order?

This allows you to remain respected knights. It allows you to publically stand in opposition, but not powerful enough to stop their project. It allows you to secretely support the rebellion as long as you do so carefully (meaning they could get to you if they catch you in the act, but couldn't act against you without evidence). And it allows you to support the church in a society that doesn't trust it.

There will be some conflict and on occassion you will have to yield in individual matters. But on others you can stand unbudging and shield the innocent. A moral conundrum consisting of walking a balance between being righteous and not letting the chapter get enough cause to go after you as well.

Would that work for you?

(As for the realism thing. Think of the chapter being used as a disposable tool by the poeple in power, rather than people supporting them en masse)

by **Skarain** Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:33 pm

Gahalla wrote:Allow IC to take us where the IC takes us. No matter who we are.

My opinion about this?
Enjoy what we all love.
Im sure you will find a way.
"Its all RP"

Spoiler:

by **Mandui** Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:34 pm

I agree Gahalla. It's not an easy thing to do but it does work, it has worked for years. I'm not saying that any OOC discussion should become a taboo or anything, but people should put some more weight on the IC stuff instead. If the Chapter really manages to pull this through ICly, then sure, they might as well go ahead. I never said it's easy to win people's impressions or support, be it IC or OOC. It's a rather delicate procedure in fact.

And yes, I know exactly what you mean after being in the council for 4 years. Many plots never came to be because of such complications.

by **Gahalla** Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:45 pm

Geldar wrote:It has always been pressured from the inside from since I know, not from the outside. And Ministers have always been removed after internal investigations.

As far as I can remember, 7 councillors have been forced to immediately resign following corruption being exposed at the meetings throughout it's history. With no investigations.

That was just once and it was pre-planned event on which both sides agreed upon the terms as they were acceptable for either parties.

Which is what we're trying to do here, no? Smile

No, House of Nobles and Church have nothing to do with where they come from. They are part of the Council to fill in for the positions they currently work under, not because they are sent from either of the above mentioned organizations or have it demanded.

Fair enough. My mistake.

Even so, where is our say in this? What is going to stop people from doing the same afterwards with pulling the 'we're above you card, now play along'? People are uncomfortable with someone who doesn't work with them or even RP with them to suddenly become their superior.

The way I see it, we're being set up with a mess that far outweights the fun of the event. And again I ask, where is our say in this? Considering all the action that we seemingly have to agree upon like the DoL and Valestrion has said and raised as fair points, what can we do in turn to counteract this besides bending over?

Yes, these are valid concerns. The problem is that without your support, there's simply no way this will ever happen. They need the political backing to be able to set it up. That or immunity.

Either way, it's easy to explain with the council (which is very anti-chapter) being politically pressured. But that's just windowdressing. That's just to justify why your characters might have to do something so very unpalatable as to let a member of the chapter onto the council and give him leeway to conduct this. Politics is frequently like that after all (and you do play politicians).
And even then, it is merely a suggestion. I mean if Geldar and the others votes yes out of their own free will, then there's no need to justify it with pressure at all. Or maybe you make a bargain with them, they get to do what they want if they do what you want?

But regardless. What would you like to get out of it? How do you see yourself in the event? How would you like to step out of it?

From what I read, its much like what Valestrion says. We have to bend how we work and what we do and more or less remain without a say in the matters until this is over for the sake of everything, just my 2c.

Sorry, I interpreted people as "the community" as opposed to the council. Don't misunderstand me though. Even if it's just the council objecting it's just as important as if the entire community does.

by **Geldar** Sun Dec 18, 2011 12:51 pm

Fortesgue has some ideas that he spun last night, so we will see what happens.

by **Ledgic** Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:00 pm

As much as I love the sound of this entire idea, I really can't get over the fact that the "populace" of Stormwind would have to be reaching new levels of stupid to turn to the chapter, or indeed allow them to start running the show.

You can sugarcoat it all y'like, but, there are quite a few people that are well aware of the fact they're batshit crazy. My personal take on it, anyway.

Though, the bottom line is here really, if this event doesn't have the green light from everyone putting their opinions in here, it can't really happen. This is far too big to go ahead and do it without most, if not all, agreeing to it. You might also be getting a few backs up by making it seem like it is going to happen regardless of whether or not people agree.

That's bad for business.

by **Velspeth** Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:34 pm

I love this idea.

by **Valestrion** Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:38 pm

I like your idea for the Disciples, Gahalla, although perhaps we could extend this to the Holy Brigade if Maelmoor wants. I now see two options for the Disciples.

1) Being the official moderating influence. Being protected from the inquisition as a condition of the agreement that hands religious power over to the Chapter, to allow us to do what we can to protect the innocent.

2) Setting up a safe haven somewhere in Elwynn Forest to look after victims of the inquisition. Establishing an underground railroad to get victims out of Stormwind.

I am less concerned about possible inconsistency with future storyline as this story can be written off as "that was the perception at the time, although we now know better".

I am still concerned about realism. I also support Geldar's position that the Council should have an OOC say in how the event affects them.

by **Rmuffn** Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:42 pm

Valestrion wrote:I like your idea for the Disciples, Gahalla, although perhaps we could extend this to the Holy Brigade if Maelmoor wants. I now see two options for the Disciples.

1) Being the official moderating influence. Being protected from the inquisition as a condition of the agreement that hands religious power over to the Chapter, to allow us to do what we can to protect the innocent.

2) Setting up a safe haven somewhere in Elwynn Forest to look after victims of the inquisition. Establishing an underground railroad to get victims out of Stormwind.

I am less concerned about possible inconsistency with future storyline as this story can be written off as "that was the perception at the time, although we now know better".

I am still concerned about realism. I also support Geldar's position that the Council should have an OOC say in how the event affects them.

That sounds epic. The good-good guys working against the good-evil guys.

by **Valestrion** Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:48 pm

I've thought of a modern day parallel to this. Imagine if the Archbishop of Canterbury was revealed to be a militant islamist so the people turned to the Jehovah's Witnesses instead.

by **Morinth** Sun Dec 18, 2011 1:55 pm

Every time I read about them, I immediately think of Jenova and imagine them falling from the sky and taking over the world.

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