Why are Blood Elves better than anyone and anything else?

Kristeas, I wouldn't read too much into that. Much of the d20 Warcraft RPG material was just a straight copy job of standard D&D spells and game mechanics. Check out the D&D version and see just how little they changed it: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/miracle.htm

Drustai wrote:

Arcane magic can perform some things similar to divine magic, yes, through careful study of the forces that govern reality. It can mimic some divine effects with non-divine means. But it does not do everything. It is limited. Divine is not. Divine magic can do anything. Arcane magic is limited to patterns and energies and the laws of reality. Divine on the other hand is about the person/force who/that put the universe together, and can completely bypass the laws of nature and reality. It is above arcane magic. It can do arcane magic, because arcane magic exists because of it, but it is far, far more. Arcane magic is governed by rules. Divine magic isn't.

Very well put Drustai. You could say that while arcane magic is limited by its own rules and workings, divine magic is only limited by the person channeling it; his faith, his constitution, and most importantly (in my opinion) the favour of the deity called upon. That is why I call the arcane magic of the mind, because it's effects depends on the user's knowledge and understanding of the laws of reality, and the divine magic of the heart/soul, because it's effects depend on the user's faith and willpower.

Wouldn't innability to resist holy energy just as much be a gameplay mechanic, wouldn't it be a battle of faith?

Drustai wrote:
Arcane magic can perform some things similar to divine magic, yes, through careful study of the forces that govern reality. It can mimic some divine effects with non-divine means. But it does not do everything. It is limited. Divine is not. Divine magic can do anything. Arcane magic is limited to patterns and energies and the laws of reality. Divine on the other hand is about the person/force who/that put the universe together, and can completely bypass the laws of nature and reality. It is above arcane magic. It can do arcane magic, because arcane magic exists because of it, but it is far, far more. Arcane magic is governed by rules. Divine magic isn't.

Arcane magic is in some cases considered unnatural and does bend and tear at reality in the form of portals. Divine magic that doesn't follow "laws" would have to be terribly specific. Say your pray for a portal to Dalaran and get it, that's a lot of parameters you have to keep in mind unless "the light" follows laws or is a sentient force wich is not in confirmed I believe.

@Saevir, that's why I don't take into account that godemoting miracle spell. It's mostly as a easy list of what could be seen as a miracle.

Thelos wrote:

Drustai wrote:

Arcane magic can perform some things similar to divine magic, yes, through careful study of the forces that govern reality. It can mimic some divine effects with non-divine means. But it does not do everything. It is limited. Divine is not. Divine magic can do anything. Arcane magic is limited to patterns and energies and the laws of reality. Divine on the other hand is about the person/force who/that put the universe together, and can completely bypass the laws of nature and reality. It is above arcane magic. It can do arcane magic, because arcane magic exists because of it, but it is far, far more. Arcane magic is governed by rules. Divine magic isn't.

Very well put Drustai. You could say that while arcane magic is limited by its own rules and workings, divine magic is only limited by the person channeling it; his faith, his constitution, and most importantly (in my opinion) the favour of the deity called upon.

I wouldn't say it's limited by constitution. Enough faith can overcome one's constitution to allow them to channel whatever they are channeling. Sure, it might ultimately kill them, but it won't cease just because its 'energy level' far exceeds his capability to withstand. He lives just long enough to finish it.

If deities actually exist (rather than just faith), then not even faith is important, because a deity could choose to perform their effect even through an atheist.

It's not governed by any proper rules, except ones that the deity itself might follow.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Wouldn't innability to resist holy energy just as much be a gameplay mechanic, wouldn't it be a battle of faith?

Correct. However, you have to remember that, in-game, the Resistance stats are more about enchantments/physical construction, not faith. Said enchantments would be completely breached by holy energy, as is the case in-game--only faith (which is not represented in game mechanics) would be able to resist it.

Drustai wrote:
Correct. However, you have to remember that, in-game, the Resistance stats are more about enchantments/physical construction, not faith. Said enchantments would be completely breached by holy energy, as is the case in-game--only faith (which is not represented in game mechanics) would be able to resist it.

*cough*ilevelandarena/rbgrankingandthewhiningataloss*cough*

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:

Drustai wrote:
Correct. However, you have to remember that, in-game, the Resistance stats are more about enchantments/physical construction, not faith. Said enchantments would be completely breached by holy energy, as is the case in-game--only faith (which is not represented in game mechanics) would be able to resist it.

*cough*ilevelandarena/rbgrankingandthewhiningataloss*cough*

Well, yes, you could see leveling and all that as a representation of increasing one's faith when playing a divine class.

What about certaing procs and for example holy power? Where the end is either "Oh no, it didn't work!" or "That should be enough!".

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:What about certaing procs and for example holy power? Where the end is either "Oh no, it didn't work!" or "That should be enough!".

Faith that things will go well for you. As in, you trust in the Light/your deity that they will guide you through the battle. So rather than happening by 'chance', it is by your faith that they happen. You trust in the Light to guide your blows (aka, presenting you with procs at the most opportune moments). Why did it proc then? Because your deity believed it beneficial to proc at that exact moment.

"There's no such thing as luck."

As far as Holy Power goes... well, I don't play a paladin, so I don't know much about the mechanics. But generally, if something doesn't work, one chalks it up to their own lack of faith.

Drustai wrote: Why did it proc then? Because your deity believed it beneficial to proc at that exact moment.
"There's no such thing as luck."

Can faith work subconciously? From a non-faith point of view it would seem odd that a (as seen by the practicioners) benevolent entity would would allows two individuals who fight each other (and that believe in the same deity) and have "procs" against each other.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
Can faith work subconciously? From a non-faith point of view it would seem odd that a (as seen by the practicioners) benevolent entity would would allows two individuals who fight each other (and that believe in the same deity) and have "procs" against each other.

Well in that case the deity clearly favors one combatant over the other, for reasons beyond our comprehension.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:

Drustai wrote: Why did it proc then? Because your deity believed it beneficial to proc at that exact moment.
"There's no such thing as luck."

Can faith work subconciously? From a non-faith point of view it would seem odd that a (as seen by the practicioners) benevolent entity would would allows two individuals who fight each other (and that believe in the same deity) and have "procs" against each other.

Yes, faith is subconscious as well as conscious. In fact, it's far more subconscious than conscious. It isn't about thinking really hard to do something in one singular moment. It is about 'knowing', from deep in your soul, that everything will go right. When faith actually has a tangible impact (like it does in WoW), this means that subconscious faith can change reality... for example, believing your deity will protect you, and thus, through that faith, causing a potential assassin to either not be hired or failing in the attempt, solely because you were so certain that you would not be harmed. Reality and history rearranged itself based on your faith.

That is the big difference between arcane magic and divine magic. Arcane is direct, it micromanages strands of energy. Divine is indirect, it simply has faith in the universe being a certain way and those things falling into place on their own. You don't change the universe, you have faith that the universe will change itself.

As for two members of the same faith fighting each other... multiple reasons. Free will, for one. Differences in perceived doctrine, for another. Perhaps a test of faith by the deity. Alternatively, there is simply some incomprehensible cosmic plan at work which is furthered by two members of the same faith fighting each other. Point is... you can't think about the why, because the why is unknowable when dealing with the divine. You can only know that it happens, not why it happens. It is beyond human understanding.

Drustai wrote:
It is beyond human understanding.

Or any other mortal born race.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:

Drustai wrote:
It is beyond human understanding.

Or any other mortal born race.

When I say 'human' I mean any sapient race. It's just a lot easier to say human/humanity/mankind/etc than... sapient? Mortal? Mortal is probably the best.

So yes, beyond mortal understanding.

We'll leave open the cases of a mortal turned deity ?

*Ponders* I wonder if all the subconscious.. euh... "faithing", by all those that do it, in the end of the day actualy cancel each other out. Since else Divine Magic > all, wich doesn't seem to happen in Warcraft History. Maybe even more that Divine magic is used to replace or combat Arcane magic.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:We'll leave open the cases of a mortal turned deity ?

*Ponders* I wonder if all the subconscious.. euh... "faithing", by all those that do it, in the end of the day actualy cancel each other out. Since else Divine Magic > all, wich doesn't seem to happen in Warcraft History. Maybe even more that Divine magic is used to replace or combat Arcane magic.

I wouldn't say it so much cancels each other out, but rather that, potentially, collective belief has shaped reality into the way it is today--everyone's individual beliefs about the way things are have all merged and melded into this reality, like a stew. This would make faith harder, in that not only do you have to have faith yourself, but you would also be combating everyone else's belief of the way things are. Someone who doesn't believe in the Light being more difficult to heal than a faithful, for example, because he is so completely sworn to the idea that the Light doesn't exist and he cannot be healed by it. Thus, even though he is an atheist, you, as a faithful, must still combat his faith in there being no such thing as faith if you are to actually heal him. The first person that relents and thinks "what if..." loses.

Drustai wrote:

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:We'll leave open the cases of a mortal turned deity ?

*Ponders* I wonder if all the subconscious.. euh... "faithing", by all those that do it, in the end of the day actualy cancel each other out. Since else Divine Magic > all, wich doesn't seem to happen in Warcraft History. Maybe even more that Divine magic is used to replace or combat Arcane magic.

I wouldn't say it so much cancels each other out, but rather that, potentially, collective belief has shaped reality into the way it is today--everyone's individual beliefs about the way things are have all merged and melded into this reality. This would make faith harder, in that not only do you have to have faith yourself, but you would also be combating everyone else's belief of the way things are. Someone who doesn't believe in the Light being more difficult to heal than a faithful, for example, because he is so completely sworn to the idea that the Light doesn't exist and he cannot be healed by it. Thus, even though he is an atheist, you, as a faithful, must still combat his faith in there being no such thing as faith if you are to actually heal him. The first person that relents and thinks "what if..." loses.

Interesting thought. Then divine magic would just be limited by the caster and the deity, but also by every other being in the effected reality. If person A tries to heal person B, then it would be much harder if persons C, D and E don't believe that A can heal B.

To go even further, if reality is defined by the collective "Divine" thought, then Arcane magic is defined by Divine magic. If an uncommon "Divine spell" would become more practiced, then that imprint would become more defined untill Arcane magic can do the same. Arcane order is the statistical end result of the chaos of Divine magic, or something like that. Have to remember to work that out >.>

Or, as an alternative to that, if there is an actual sapient omnipotent deity pulling the strings, it will be his will that is materialized at the end of the day, not those of individual believers.

At the end of the day all the mortal's plights might convince a deity to act, or it may not. Its up to the big man upstairs.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Arcane order is the statistical end result of the chaos of Divine magic, or something like that.

That's basically the idea behind that belief, yes. Reality (which is arcane) is defined by faith (the divine). This is, of course, based on a reality in which there is no real cosmic plan (and thus likely no proper deities), where faith itself is the molder and shaper, rather than some omnipotent being. Then again, perhaps said being created reality to be that way.

There are a million possible theories. That's why I like having religions at least be kept vague OOCly... so that we are free to explore these theories ICly without being influenced by what the 'truth' is.

Thelos wrote:Or, as an alternative to that, if there is an actual sapient omnipotent deity pulling the strings, it will be his will that is materialized at the end of the day, not those of individual believers.

At the end of the day all the mortal's plights might convince a deity to act, or it may not. Its up to the big man upstairs.

Yep, this is another possible theory.

I'd also rephrase it as divine reality is expressed in arcane.

What if by some fluke, arcane disproves divine? (The movie Dogma came to mind.)

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:I'd also rephrase it as divine reality is expressed in arcane.

What if by some fluke, arcane disproves divine? (The movie Dogma came to mind.)

what would be the result of arcane disproving divine? that paladins and priests suddenly lose their power? that suddenly you don't need to be smart to be an arcanist, but believing in an imaginary friend is enough to bend the laws of nature?

Haha

Amaryl wrote:

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:I'd also rephrase it as divine reality is expressed in arcane.

What if by some fluke, arcane disproves divine? (The movie Dogma came to mind.)

what would be the result of arcane disproving divine? that paladins and priests suddenly lose their power? that suddenly you don't need to be smart to be an arcanist, but believing in an imaginary friend is enough to bend the laws of nature?

The assumption before the disproving is that you need to be smart to bend them, but need to believe in an imaginary friend to change them.
If A creates B and B shows that A doesn't exist, then we divide by zero.

"Hmm, that's strange, if I interpret this ley line nexus right and integrate it in the gravity weave matrix and then reverse input it in the hydraulic phase shift emulator, and attach it to the transdimensional photon particle emitter, then... ohshi-"

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:
If A creates B and B shows that A doesn't exist, then we divide by zero.

Despite populair belief, commiting logical fallacies does not cause the world to implode.

It just means that somewhere down the line you made some mistake and the end result is an impossibility. If in that example you must dismiss the finding that shows that A does not excist because it leads to a logical fallacy. There is a reason why your programming software say "Error" when you try to divide by zero, you know. They ought to know - they're nothing but logic after all. You have tried to insert a finding that leads to a divide by zero. The universe will respond with an error message.

Dogma is a bad comparison because there we are dealing with a sapient, rule-making diety while we were currently discussing the non-sapient, force-like kind.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:

The assumption before the disproving is that you need to be smart to bend them, but need to believe in an imaginary friend to change them.
If A creates B and B shows that A doesn't exist, then we divide by zero.

No, that's not the assumption before disproving.

having Faith in the light makes people able to change the laws of nature. and understanding the laws of nature can give the ability to bend them.

so either you're disproving that "Changing" is actually "Bending" or you're proving that the Light does not exist, making it an imaginary friend, and thus concluding that believing fiercely in an imaginary friend is potentially more powerful then all the understanding of the world you might have.

those are the only two consequences of that possibly.

since there's no question that paladins and priests do the stuff they do, and it wont suddenly explode.

I mean all our current equipment that was created with the E=MC2 in mind doesn't suddenly stop working now that the Math and principles it was based on might be wrong or insufficient.