Why are Blood Elves better than anyone and anything else?

Geldar wrote:

To be fair they got their sunwell going with hardly any help...

The Sunwell was not restored/re-ignited by the Blood elves, but by Valen who used the heart of M'uru who the Blood elves enslaved to leech from.

If they are good at anything that is being nearly extinct.

I might have been being disingenuous XD

Belfs are good at hair dressing and a flounce also.

Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:

Geldar wrote:

To be fair they got their sunwell going with hardly any help...

The Sunwell was not restored/re-ignited by the Blood elves, but by Valen who used the heart of M'uru who the Blood elves enslaved to leech from.

If they are good at anything that is being nearly extinct.

I might have been being disingenuous XD

Belfs are good at hair dressing and a flounce also.

False, no barbershops are manned by Blood Elves.

That is because the Belf sense of fashion was copied from Queen Azshara.

False, take a look at Azshara, a female night elf and a female blood elf and see who has the sense of fashion copied.

Azshara

Spoiler:

Female Night Elf.

Spoiler:

Female Blood Elf

Spoiler:

Like that blood elf woman is representative for all Sin'dorei females. You're comparing plate to cloth, for crêpe's sake!

Thar

Thelos wrote:Like that blood elf woman is representative for all Sin'dorei females. You're comparing plate to cloth, for crêpe's sake!

/flounce

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:

Geldar wrote:

To be fair they got their sunwell going with hardly any help...

The Sunwell was not restored/re-ignited by the Blood elves, but by Valen who used the heart of M'uru who the Blood elves enslaved to leech from.

If they are good at anything that is being nearly extinct.

'fraid we're behind the Draenei and Gnomes on that.

But the gnomes are being extinct with style.

Velen restoring the sunwell was the single most hateful moment for me in the entire of WOW. It killed belves being cool and turned them into a boring race. There's so much wrong with it I want to scream.

Lyniath wrote:Velen restoring the sunwell was the single most hateful moment for me in the entire of WOW. It killed belves being cool and turned them into a boring race. There's so much wrong with it I want to scream.

Well it was the last thing any Draenei did in lore. ther than troll nelves.

Lyniath wrote:Velen restoring the sunwell was the single most hateful moment for me in the entire of WOW. It killed belves being cool and turned them into a boring race. There's so much wrong with it I want to scream.

It's certainly better than the idea that belves could steal the Light.

Drustai wrote:

It's certainly better than the idea that belves could steal the Light.

Yes, there was so much wrong with it that it made me want to scream.

Drustai wrote:

Lyniath wrote:Velen restoring the sunwell was the single most hateful moment for me in the entire of WOW. It killed belves being cool and turned them into a boring race. There's so much wrong with it I want to scream.

It's certainly better than the idea that belves could steal the Light.

They didnt, the naaru gave it willingly in a Loin the witch and the wardrobe moment.

Belves shouldn't have had light.

Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:

Drustai wrote:

Lyniath wrote:Velen restoring the sunwell was the single most hateful moment for me in the entire of WOW. It killed belves being cool and turned them into a boring race. There's so much wrong with it I want to scream.

It's certainly better than the idea that belves could steal the Light.

They didnt, the naaru gave it willingly in a Loin the witch and the wardrobe moment.

Still retarded. It is not something that should be given. It should have to require faith of the individual using it. Anything else is too easy.

Lyniath wrote:Belves shouldn't have had light.

Well, they did have followers of the Light prior to becoming blood elves. It makes sense that they'd still have a few (and they needed to have some kind of paladins as Blizzard wanted Horde to have paladins). The culture itself, however, should have been against it... making blood elf paladins something 'outdated' and rejected instead of central to their culture (as Blood Knights were). That would have made them far stronger characters--somehow maintaining their faith (in the Light and in their people) despite their entire culture being against it (similar to Forsaken holy priests).

Lyniath wrote:Belves shouldn't have had light.

Blood Elves shouldn't have ever been made Horde, rather. Then them having the Light would just plain make sense.

Depends how you define 'better'. They are quite small in numbers as far as I remember, they have no stand alone military might, they are pretty much under Forsaken control and their shallow culture makes the horde hate them.

1: Not being able to steal light:
Considering magic as it is portrayed seems to be limited by the caster and not the magic source. And that divine magic such as light/holy is based around belief, saying that they shouldn't be able to steal light makes no sense.
Maybe that's even a lie for the greater good by the naaru. Naaru are a bit more radiant and it could be easier to drain them than demons. Belves noticed that but didn't look into it further and it would be a good excuse ((lolz guys, lets say we let them steal it so we can guilt trip them)).
The "arrogant" behavior of Blood Elves might also manifest in the -belief- that they can drain light magic, so they can, because they believe. Or they didn't drain and the belief that they can use light magic because they think they can drain it, makes them able to use it. Same way it goes for the Twilight Cult light magic users.

We know nothing about the applied mechanics. In a way it's just like gravity, we don't know how it works, what particles are involved, what scale it works on, but it works. So in this case, saying they shouldn't be able is an argument out of emotion. ((Vs. Arcane, Fel and necromancy, divine magic is arguably much simpler all around. I don't think there are any/many here who can sum up the standard curriculum for a Dalarani mage apprentice.))

2: Blood Knights were rejected, as can be seen in their old quests by craftsment (ordinary citizens) and the farstriders. They stayed around because they were needed. Thrall didn't like it, but saw the need for them.

3: I doubt that the ruthless, opportunistic and backstab-y nature of blood elves would fit the alliance. I don't think there are many Alliance people that are filled with "dark giddy joy" at the end of a quest against the alliance.... or turning your cheating spouse into a mouse for a cat to eat.

4: As can be seen/assumed in the part of the Lor'themar short story, is that Lor'themar accepts the "pawn" position for now. And that was pre-wotlk, didn't hear any forsaken help or complaints when the High Elves came fighting the Trolls. Not many Belves fighting at locations such as the plaguelands, hillsbrad or the wall either. Blood Elves seem strong enough to not warrant instant Forsaken aid or being pressured into aiding them, and being able to go out for their own interests, but not so strong that they say no to Trolls fighting their battles for them (())

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:The "arrogant" behavior of Blood Elves might also manifest in the -belief- that they can drain light magic, so they can, because they believe. Or they didn't drain and the belief that they can use light magic because they think they can drain it, makes them able to use it. Same way it goes for the Twilight Cult light magic users.

That's the only reasonable explanation for it, as it's the only one that makes any sense. They didn't drain it, they weren't given it, they believed they had drained it and could use it and so they could. An arrogant kind of faith, but still faith. It's still kind of lousy, but definitely better than the idea they could drain it.

We know nothing about the applied mechanics. In a way it's just like gravity, we don't know how it works, what particles are involved, what scale it works on, but it works. So in this case, saying they shouldn't be able is an argument out of emotion.

Something that is divine should not be something you can 'find out how it works', or 'what particles are involved', or 'what scale it works on'. It is divine, it is completely beyond understanding--it cannot be analyzed or manipulated for mankind's benefit. If you start being able to answer those questions, then you trivialize faith entirely.

If you can't understand how it work at one time, then it doesn't mean that in the end you can't eventualy learn how to analyze and manipulate it.
What if the "faith" is in the ability to analyze and manipulate something.

Also, going to see if there are any titan uses of light magic, since they are all anti-chaos and pro-order, I doubt that they'd use anything that can't be explained. They didn't like Arcane magic to start with. One of the Un'goro crystals has a light magic effect and look.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:If you can't understand how it work at one time, then it doesn't mean that in the end you can't eventualy learn how to analyze and manipulate it.
What if the "faith" is in the ability to analyze and manipulate something.

I dont like where this train of thought of yours is headed, Kristeas. In your hands there is no signifcant difference between the divine and the arcane. Before you know it we'll be calling Priests "Lightmancers". This is exactly why I am so hesistant to call miracles brought forth by the Light "Magic", because that word implies it operates under the same conditions as the arcane.

It doesn't. The Divine should always come from the heart and the soul, not the mind. You do not analyse it, break it down to the particle level, and then use it to construct somehting in reality. You place your fate in a higher power and pray for its guidance. Because of your unyielding fate and devotion to this power, it grants you it's boon. You do not control it, or manipulate it, you are merely the vessel for it. You channel it, you do not cast it. The fact that felt the need to put the word Faith in between scarequotes and the idea you coin that the Light is something that with perfect knowledge and understand we will be able to fully comprehend and manipulate betrays that you do not really understanding the meaning of the word, I think.

Words associated with the Light should be "Transcendent" and "Revelation", not "Analytical" and "Understanding". Changes in the world brought forth by the Light should be "Blessings", "Boons" or "Miracles", not...well, scientific sounding effects like "Manipulations" or "Constructs".

The light conquers you, you do not conquer it. You submit to it, it doesn't sumbit to you.

That's how I think it should work, though. No doubt Blizzard disagrees with me, judging from the whole Blood Knight escepades and the all too often used "God-killing" motif they got going for the trolls. I do not think the Loa spirits are on quite the same level of "Divinity" that the Light is, though, since what the Blood Elves were draining wasn't actually a source of Light, just a container or representative. Unlike the Loa, were the source of power is directly drained and submitted.

A miracle requests a deity's intercession. One doesn't so much cast a miracle as request one. A person states what he would like to have happen and requests that his Eternal (or the power he prays to for spells) intercede. A miracle can do any of the following things.
Duplicate any healer spell (including spells to which the person has access because of his domains).
Duplicate any other spell, including arcane spells.
Undo the harmful effects of certain spells, such as geas/quest or insanity.

Alternatively, a healer can make a very powerful request. Casting such a miracle costs the healer because of the powerful divine energies involved. Examples of especially powerful miracles of this sort include the following.
Swinging the tide of a battle in his favor by raising fallen allies to continue fighting.
Moving his allies, with all his and their gear, from one plane to another through planar barriers to a specific locale with no chance of error.
Protecting a city from an earthquake, volcanic eruption, flood or other major natural disaster.
Restoring a Forsaken back to mortal life. It can return them to being living humans or high elves.
A miracle spell can restore a reincarnated character to his or her original form.

In any event, a request that is out of line with the Eternal's or faith's (or alignment's) nature is refused.[1]

One possible miracle occuring in World of Warcraft is A'dal granting his blessing on Crusader Bridenbrad, who was struck by the plague of undeath. While Bridenbrand still died in the end, A'dal's blessing prevented him from becoming a mindless ghoul in the service of the Lich King, and allowed him to die in peace.

1: Mage Spellsteal in some cases.
2: Mage remove curse and alchemical potions.
3: Death Knight raise ally. (it is arguable if the Lich King was actualy a god born through arcane/fel/necromancy. Cult - Check. Great Power - Check. Immortal -Check-ish.
4: Mage Portal / Warlock Summon.
5: You could say that Dalaran is protected from earthquakes and such.

And you could argue that A'dal's possible miracle lies in the relative painless death. A good torching would likely have stopped Bridenbrad from becoming a mindless ghoul.

@Loa, it might be that they have connections to alternative planes, like the emerald dream.

I'm not really sure what the point of that post was, it is quite confusing. You'll have to forgive me if this counterargument doesn't make any sense.

First of you quote something without giving the source. That's just plain confusing. Is it from the WoW RPG manuals perhaps?

Then you seem to list a number of arcane spells that can cause effects similar to those the examples of miracles you quoted. Is that a way of saying said miracles are actually products of magic? That seems a bit silly to me. Just because one power can bring forth the same effects as another, doesn't imply that they are the same power.

Arcane can do things. Divine can do things. Technology can do things. They do things differently, though, and in a radical way. The effects that they can bring forth may be similar, but that doesn't mean that the causes are. For example, you can dispell a harmful effect by casting the proper right arcane counter spell. Or, you can undo the harmful effect by praying to the Light to remove it. Both have the same effect, but work in a radically different way.

That's part of what makes fantasy universes like WoW so interesting, in my opinion. The diversity.

Ah yes, sloppy of me:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Miracle
1.^ World of Warcraft: The Roleplaying Game, pg. 53, 268, 320, 330

And what I try to say is that different sources can have the same "visible" effect. That they are in a way interchangable. Practically, it doesn't matter if you use divine or arcane magic, that an act of arcane magic can be seen as a case of divine magic. But there are also things that, untill know, have been for the most only available to one of the types. I think that even heavily favors divine magic. In a way that Divine magic -Is- and Arcane magic -Becomes-. Combining the two might even be better, so far that it is possible to base something on both faith and knowledge, since you need to have faith that it works, wich could neutralize the knowledge component.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:If you can't understand how it work at one time, then it doesn't mean that in the end you can't eventualy learn how to analyze and manipulate it.

And when you add that kind of 'information' to your universe, you trivialize the concept of faith. It's a matter of creative style to me, not about if there is or is not actually some kind of scientific explanation canonically. Sure, you could always say that the Light (or any divine source in any universe) has some logical method of working, that characters could potentially/have already discovered, but when you do so all you are doing is turning it into something more akin to arcane magic than divine--which is what I mean about trivialization. When you understand how something works, faith is far, far easier to have. Faith is most powerful, as a storytelling device, when it is based almost completely on nothing that can be seen, touched, or felt--no tangible knowledge or rewards or magical powers. That is why Dragon Age has, IMO, the best religion in a modern fantasy universe. Their priests don't even have clerical powers. They have nothing but their faith in Andraste.

What if the "faith" is in the ability to analyze and manipulate something.

There's nothing wrong with a character/nation believing it understands how it works--there's nothing wrong with them having theories and such, as that's basically the main idea behind a religious doctrine. It's when you (as a developer/writer) start actually validating their beliefs in-universe that I have a problem with. No one should ever have it completely, or even partially, right.

The blood elf story heavily implied that they somehow knew how to manipulate the Light to their own ends. The idea that they simply believed it would work and so it did is a player justification. The developer intent was that they literally were draining it (with M'uru allowing them). It was a story made both so blood elves could have paladins and also to make blood elves seem more "badass", with the Light somehow subservient to them. The elves were playing God and actually getting away with it, which is why I don't like it--you should never be able to out-God God. Stylistically, it ruined the idea of the Light for me. The divine should not be understandable or controllable. It should be above everything.

Otherwise, you just have magic.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:1: Mage Spellsteal in some cases.
2: Mage remove curse and alchemical potions.
3: Death Knight raise ally.
4: Mage Portal / Warlock Summon.
5: You could say that Dalaran is protected from earthquakes and such.

Arcane magic can perform some things similar to divine magic, yes, through careful study of the forces that govern reality. It can mimic some divine effects with non-divine means. But it does not do everything. It is limited. Divine is not. Divine magic can do anything. Arcane magic is limited to patterns and energies and the laws of reality. Divine on the other hand is about the person/force who/that put the universe together, and can completely bypass the laws of nature and reality. It is above arcane magic. It can do arcane magic, because arcane magic exists because of it, but it is far, far more. Arcane magic is governed by rules. Divine magic isn't.

Also, I personally hate the idea that you can Spellsteal or Dark Simulacrum holy spells. IMO, it should simply fail to work on them, in the same way that you cannot resist holy energy. Again, it's a matter of, IMO, a poor stylistic choice on the part of the devs. I personally justify it to myself as not actually stealing the holy energy, but rather creating a poor mimicry of the spell with non-divine forces.