Playing influential characters/Influence trough numbers

Of course, derailing this thread ties in well with all the points made. When someone attempts to bring real world logic into any fantasy setting one sentence kinda disarms them completely. For example a discussion about why we have certain noble ranks, or why wealth is treated differently? How did these changes which make no sense in our world happen?

Easy.

"Wizard did it."

Geneviève wrote:Everything boils down to manpower. Because without men to be paid money is useless. Without people to worship the Church is merely a commune of old men. Without boots on the ground equipment stockpiles, armouries, food caches, fuel depots, they're all inanimate resources.

In real life maybe. But this isn't real life and that's a good thing!

One can easily go ahead and claim to have thousands of gold and you can't do anything about it. They don't even have to justify where they got all that gold from to prove their power. A simple "inherited" excuse is more than sufficient. Same goes for many other things that may define power. I'm sure almost everyone here has experienced characters going around claiming to be powerful in terms of magic/money/fame/armies or similar. Not many of those are taken seriously. Why? Because most are doing it wrong.

What truly matters is the impact the personality of your character has on others and how your own behavior is towards other players as well (yes, OOCly too, because that affects people whether we like it or not). That is the only thing that counts in order to gain people's support in a virtual world like this one. You may spent a year gathering troops, recruiting actual people for your guild, come up with elaborate stories about your heritage and family tree, your fortune, your title and whatnot. If your character lacks charisma and you're also unable to reach out for people OOCly, then you might as well not bother at all.

This is not a theory or assumption. Someone actually managed to create the most successful noble house on DB yet, starting from absolute zero and reaching the house's zenith in only a month. He was immediately acknowledged and respected. Not because of the big number of his guild members, not because of a oh-so-elaborate-and-convincing background story of his character, not even because of much gold; he had none of the above. He was just that good; he could convince people with his behavior and his general demeanor. Living proof that numbers do not count at all.

It's a very tricky thing, this discussion...

in part I support the: More supporters = more influence. Because that's how it works. Not just feudal nobility but the entire power structure of the world in all times. Naturally I do mean "supporters" who involve themselves with the community as a whole. It's essentially the perfect case of "show, don't tell".
Of course, some can make an absolutely haphazard job about it.

"My power? This is my power" *rallies supporters*.

But like Mandui says, some of us can pull off that atmosphere of power and nobility and create a very enjoyable atmosphere despite not having that physical power. And in the game, since that what it is, this is just as important in my meaning. They're also "showing, not telling" us.

I think that's ultimately what should determine our level of influence. The number of people that are involved in our atmosphere. Those might be my loyal subjects (guild/ooc group) or my contacts (friends, allies, people I roleplay with regularly). If we make an enjoyable show of our status, then we confirm our status.
That's not to say that people who haven't time to build it yet shouldn't be considered to have anything. New comers should be allowed to weave their net, get their contacts and recruit people to their organisation.

It was late last night and I'm not sure I expressed myself in my first post as well as I wanted to. I agree almost completely with Mandui and Gahalla.

I'm perfectly happy for any number of individuals to pop up and claim great material wealth, a glowing history, but when it comes to influence/manpower these are things you can't 'imagine' into being. Any influence we have with other characters relies upon you actually having IC friends/allies upon which you have influence. Any claims of great armies needs to be backed up with actual RPers to the same degree, else we have promises of military aid amounting to the noble in question and his bodyguard.

When Tarv and I started out our backstory included a recent catastrophic military defeat for the Seal, explaining why it had to be rebuilt from an almost non existant base. Newcomers should be welcomed into positions of power, but they should also consider possible reasons why, for the moment, their power is limited by a lack of support. Just as you can't fake influence and charisma, you can't fake manpower.

TLDR version of the latest posts.

Geneviève wrote: Any influence we have with other characters relies upon you actually having IC friends/allies upon which you have influence.

Additional note:
The only place where I would differ, is in case of nobility or positions of status. While this can hardly be enforced on anyone, I found it very rewarding for my own roleplay to actually behave according to another's status. So, all my "commoner" characters never dare to waylay the words of a Noble and almost consider their word to be law. It's more fun this way, actually

But are we derailing here?

Geneviève wrote:Any influence we have with other characters relies upon you actually having IC friends/allies upon which you have influence. Any claims of great armies needs to be backed up with actual RPers to the same degree, else we have promises of military aid amounting to the noble in question and his bodyguard.

Read the last paragraph of my last post again. Especially the "he had none of the above" part. That guy must have been Copperfield xD

Mandui wrote:

Geneviève wrote:Any influence we have with other characters relies upon you actually having IC friends/allies upon which you have influence. Any claims of great armies needs to be backed up with actual RPers to the same degree, else we have promises of military aid amounting to the noble in question and his bodyguard.

Read the last paragraph of my last post again. Especially the "he had none of the above" part. That guy must have been Copperfield xD

We're really not discussing the same thing, Mandui. My argument is that a character can be very well played. An excellent noble/general/what have you without any trappings at all. But if they start claiming to have armies large enough to cause earthquakes, drink the rivers dry, and burn Sparta to the ground and have no support then I'm not going to acknowledge them as having such. I'll still accept their rank. Gen will still curtsey and address them correctly. But if they threaten her with force - why anyone would do that is beyond me - she'll bemusedly walk away and think no more of it save perhaps to speak to a Disciple about her concern for the gentleman's mental state.

If you believe that we should acknowledge and respond to everyone as if they had access to colossal NPC armies then we are discussing the same thing. And I disagree with you.

Geneviève wrote:We're really not discussing the same thing, Mandui. My argument is that a character can be very well played. An excellent noble/general/what have you without any trappings at all. But if they start claiming to have armies large enough to cause earthquakes, drink the rivers dry, and burn Sparta to the ground and have no support then I'm not going to acknowledge them as having such. I'll still accept their rank. Gen will still curtsey and address them correctly. But if they threaten her with force - why anyone would do that is beyond me - she'll bemusedly walk away and think no more of it save perhaps to speak to a Disciple about her concern for the gentleman's mental state.

If you believe that we should acknowledge and respond to everyone as if they had access to colossal NPC armies then we are discussing the same thing. And I disagree with you.

We are actually discussing the same thing, you're just missing the point. The question is not whether your claims about having a large army is based on facts or fiction. The question is rather....why would you use that as an argument to begin with? Like I said, and using my example as the ultimate proof, it doesn't really help you acquire respect or anything similar even if you do have such a manpower player wise.

We were asked a question and I answered it. I personally don't care what you RP so long as you can portrey it in a believable manner. I provided the example of manpower as an 'unbelievable' manner. I would further add 'influence' to a list of things that have to actually exist to be portreyed believably.

Of course that doesn't mean other people aren't allowed to answer it. People have just chosen not to.

I think the main problem here is that you have been using the numbers argument even before any questions were asked really. People just dislike the pushy attitude, that's all.

Mandui wrote:I think the main problem here is that you have been using the numbers argument even before any questions were asked really. People just dislike the pushy attitude, that's all.

The first mention of guild size playing a part in politics was by Valerias on September 3rd. "big houses will naturally get more precedence than small ones"

Ledgic then disagreed, and Lex agreed that power should play a part but that guild size alone is not the only aspect. Lexgard himself stating that "The martial might of the seals is powerful " This was the first time the Seal's size was mentioned - by name - in the thread, again not by me.

I then went on to agree with both of them in different aspects, specifically stating that I didn't think 'power' should have any impact within the House precisely to avoid any such 'dick waving'. This was the first time I even touched on the size of the Seal. Personally I dislike your pushy attitude, and the use of fabricated assertions to make 'the numbers argument' something that I raised, rather than responded to.

In light of the above falsehoods I'd really appreciate an apology.

I will accept I was pushy on the subject of RL politics, both contemporary and historical, but that has nothing to do with the Seal aside from the fact I'm a member and was an aside discussion regarding the origins of power. But was Lexgrad any less pushy? Or Geldar? Or anyone else who added their opinion to the debate?

Geneviève wrote:Ledgic then disagreed, and Lex agreed that power should play a part but that guild size alone is not the only aspect. Lexgard himself stating that "The martial might of the seals is powerful " This was the first time the Seal's size was mentioned - by name - in the thread, again not by me.

I wasn't referring to this thread alone, but rather in general

Mandui wrote:

Geneviève wrote:Ledgic then disagreed, and Lex agreed that power should play a part but that guild size alone is not the only aspect. Lexgard himself stating that "The martial might of the seals is powerful " This was the first time the Seal's size was mentioned - by name - in the thread, again not by me.

I wasn't referring to this thread alone, but rather in general

Having now re-read every post I've ever made on this forums in case my memory was playing me false I shall link you to the very first post in which I mentioned the Seal's size - conveniantly this is also one of only two other threads guild size has been mentioned by me, I once talked about the Blades good organisation/leadership skills, congratulatng them on their ability to motivate so many RPers. This is the first post in which I ever referred to the Seal's size http://www.defiasrp.com/t3656p45-week-35-lament-of-a-perfectionist, it was in response to the OP, started by Sophyra where she discussed the Seal's size.

In conclusion, the three times I have discussed guild size, once was in reference to another guild, and the other two occassions were in response to others who raised the subject of size and mentioned us specifically by name.

I also was not referring to this thread alone, but rather in general.

In conclusion, the three times I have discussed guild size, once was in reference to another guild, and the other two occassions were in response to others who raised the subject of size and mentioned us specifically by name.

Only on the SWCommunity logs there are more than three times, and its certainly not regarding any answers to people raising subjects. Every time I have seen you raise the subject about numbers is how they provide you with a card blanche to do what you wish.

And I am also not referring just to this thread, but in general.

PS: Add here anything Mandui already wrote, I agree with her on this 100%.

Geldar wrote:

In conclusion, the three times I have discussed guild size, once was in reference to another guild, and the other two occassions were in response to others who raised the subject of size and mentioned us specifically by name.

Only on the SWCommunity logs there are more than three times, and its certainly not regarding any answers to people raising subjects. Every time I have seen you raise the subject about numbers is how they provide you with a card blanche to do what you wish.

And I am also not referring just to this thread, but in general.

PS: Add here anything Mandui already wrote, I agree with her on this 100%.

This has gone off topic far enough but I feel I've the right to defend myself. I've now demonstrated twice that Mandui has fabricated facts to back up her needless attack. If you wish to publicise those logs, in their entirity, then you might have a leg to stand on. Until then this is another baseless accusation. The size of our guild was never an issue until other people started raising it.

We've never operated as if we had a legal carte blanche. If we did operate that way we would not have quit Stormwind for a month, at a Councillors request, when waiting for the last political shitstorm to blow over. If we did operate that way we wouldn't have spent what must now amount to almost several dozen hours speaking to various parties involved in SW's RP trying desperately to come to a compromise so that the Council would grant us guard rights. If we operated that way we'd surely have punished the soldier who shot at Genevieve ourselves rather than handing him over to the guard?

So far I've been remarkably generous, supplying all the evidence on this matter. Now the onus is on you to provide the evidence to back up your assertions.

Logs are in the Stormwind Community meeting sections, feel free to read them all you want. Lexgard can provide the logs of your little 'persuading' conversations with him as well, if he so wishes.

And all the people who have seen your little claims in the open channels can vouch for it as well, not to mention the attitude you had towards the lesser guilds in the Stormwind Army project as well as the people who were not part in the big RP guilds.

If you really want the information, go look it up. Its not hidden or anything.

Geneviève wrote:This has gone off topic far enough but I feel I've the right to defend myself. I've now demonstrated twice that Mandui has fabricated facts to back up her needless attack.

I was obviously not referring to this thread, nor the forum to begin with, when I said that you've been using your numbers as an argument. The logs from several discussions are there and those who have some unposted ones, are free to decide whether to post them or not.

What I've said was more of an observation about your general IC and OOC attitude in the game than an accusation, hence why I used the example of someone who managed to achieve what you're aiming for by using an entirely different approach. I'm rather disappointed to see you receiving a word of advice as an attack.

Spoilers underneath from the little 'friendly' exchange.

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People are free to interpret the conversation as they wish, it means nothing more, or less than what is posted.



I guess that the number mentioning just got to four times, yes?

PS:

I was obviously not referring to this thread, nor the forum to begin with, when I said that you've been using your numbers as an argument. The logs from several discussions are there and those who have some unposted ones, are free to decide whether to post them or not.

What I've said was more of an observation about your general IC and OOC attitude in the game then an accusation, hence why I used the example of someone who managed to achieve what you're aiming for by using an entirely different approach. I'm rather disappointed to see you receiving a word of advice as an attack.

This ^

Split from this topic.

"And his power very much grows out of his sword."
I interpret that as innuendo.

I think the big factor is -what- you are using numbers for. Claiming numbers is fine, provided those numbers, for whatever reason, don't get used as some kind of trump card to pull in conflicts. Some characters or guild types absolutely require having more numbers than is feasible to acquire through RP--military orders especially. The only problem that happens is when you try to claim to be able to back yourself up with numbers in a direct player-oriented situation, and are incapable of when push comes to shove because of the very fact that you can't pull up those numbers. Don't make such claims, and you don't have anything to worry about.

Although even in that, there are exceptions. Law enforcement groups, for example, can sometimes find themselves rather outnumbered versus criminal RPers (this is especially true in Star Wars MMOs like SWG, where Imperial guilds are frequently outnumbered by Rebels in RP situations). Realistically, they'd have much higher numbers than criminals. In that case, I'd say the criminals should have the common sense to know that just because they've bested this one small group of guards, doesn't mean they're safe, and that they should high-tail it away from the scene of the crime before the 'NPC reinforcements' start showing up.

I've played a high-ranking character in another MMO before--she was the captain of a capital ship. Because the game was primarily based around ground activities, I didn't see the purpose of building up a player crew. ICly, however, I did RP having several thousand men under my command. Being on the ship, however, kept them out of the spotlight... only on very rare occasions was it needed for me to actually demonstrate that might, and almost always for plot purposes (orbital bombardment for the purposes of immersion in a battle). When I was around other soldiers, while I might have certainly outranked them and ICly (but not OOCly) had far more troops under my command than they did, I had no authority or direct power over them due to being in a different chain of command. This meant that my "power" only came from my own individual social skills, charisma, and presence rather than anything I could 'back up' with numbers. Despite the lack of player manpower directly under my command, that character came to be one of the most highly-respected and powerful officers in that RP community, and I was often both an IC and OOC role model for people leading groups that actually had player manpower.

That character later had a transfer to ground forces, being a commander of an NPC special forces company. I still didn't attempt to use that "manpower". Because there are very specific uses for that manpower. I couldn't just offer it to someone, because I ICly didn't have the authority to dictate what operations my men were engaged in--I couldn't pull them from one task to put them on another, because that would be against orders. I couldn't use them as my own personal army, because that would be an abuse of power and against orders. For all intents and purposes, that company had very little real effect on RP, because they were always off engaged in their specific duties. If I did happen to have reason to attach them to a specific player operation, then they were always off conducting separate NPC missions for the overall campaign, away from the players, while my character, being the commanding officer, was back at base coordinating from afar alongside the other players. Players never actually saw members from that company because none really existed, but I frequently made references to them, giving names to important officers and characters, knowing exactly what kind of training/missions they were currently tasked with, whether or not they were having equipment and supply shortages, and so on, to give the appearance that this was a real group, which simply was off doing things in another location.

In those cases, I 'claimed' manpower without having players to back it up. But the key thing is, I never tried to force that NPC manpower on any player situations. They were not some kind of special personal army for my character to use at her beck and call. They had their own duties, their own assignments, which so happened to not run alongside the player activities. That is how you can appropriately use NPC manpower--as a force that does exist, is out there, but is not some trump card you can pull out of your ass anytime you want.

As out of personal experience, this 'Can be done if it's done good' thing isn't enough.

Back on my old realm (Moonglade) I managed to RP some influential characters based on the very same guild concept, namely 'The Den' (as everyone knew it). I was considered an old-timer on the realm by then, wading through content, the community and guild management by that point in a raiding guild and I started this non-guild based community as a side project, as the Guild I was in had little to offer regarding its roster and its willingness to Role-Play (A bloody shame I might add).

What we did was basically an evil cult, an underground organisation based around solely my character's aims and goals. He wanted to torture, murder, experiment on various Horde races, disect them whilst they were alive, basically whatever a Serbian Film or any semi-arthouse horror movie may offer. For that however, I needed two things: Manpower and cooperation. Back then, both were easy. The RP Community was a tattered mess of fine people not exactly willing to cooperate, with all their ego-clashes, standards, discrimination, etc. that another thread on this forum already addresses. I wasn't above these myself, but I was on a neutral ground: I RP-ed within and outside a raiding guild, handling both as my immense spare time allowed it.

When the guild fell apart, the Den didn't. It had a steady amount of members that RP-ed all these gruesome stuff on alts and occasional willing outsiders that were interested in what the flying crap a megalomaniac warlock and a bunch of grunts may be up to in the Apothecarium and Silvermoon City (We abducted Elves mostly and Silvermoon was a hive of RP-ers back then). And that's when the issues started.

We formed it into a guild. Call it my personal project, but I enjoyed every minute of it. Guildbased events, small raiding content, and a few excursions into the wild territories of social RP to capture and experiment on new specimen. We went as far as to create social Alts, RP-ed as average commoners with a hint of a criminal past, to mingle amongst the other RP-ers, get to know them, be part of their silly soap opera..And then have them murdered and ripped apart in a violent fashion, just to see reactions.

All this was for one, sole reason: I RP-ed my character, willingly, to be an influential, manipulative, evil warlock. He was undead, void of any emotion, only a systematic urge to gain knowledge about the various races of Azeroth driving him to lead 'The Den'. This was a concept many saw as natural: Guild leader leads guild, he makes up cool stories and events, does 99% of the guild's administrative work (I didn't have any officers) and was doing fine.

Outside the Guild was a disaster area. The Blood Elven RP-ers started a Council of Silvermoon that was aimed at bringing some organised and enjoyable political RP into the scene. It took a few weeks and 'The Den' was a major issue. They immediately knew who we were, where we gather, what we did, why we did it, why the guild leader was eating dinner in Orgrimmar, and so on. How?

The truth was, they did the following: The major Elven RP Guild sent two rogues to _follow me everywhere_ for a week or any member that had a guild tag. Stealthed of course. They weren't bored of it either, because I was apparently a direct danger to their mains' position in the 'RP Community' and they didn't want to share that position with an asshole. What in hell's name they thought I need from them I didn't give a damn about. What I knew was I was enjoying the Den, the members were enjoying it and when we had the 'Silvermoon Central Agency' assault the Apothecarium during one of our events, we were simply, uh, sad.

Turns out that our guild had a grip on the community. Something akin to a tyrannical regime. We didn't let just anyone join. We set the standards so bloody high that the elite of Argent Dawn would call us by a derogatory term for rightwing radicals. We valued grammar, creativity, trust and a respect to the chain of command, but most of all, secrecy, IC or OOC. Everyone wanted in. The heroes, the villains, the rivals, the politicians, the LolRP-ers, the top echalons of LolRP-ers, anyone vaguely connected to Silvermoon or the Undercity (There were quite a few decent Guilds that stirred clean of this of course.) We set the bar high and that pissed off Alooot of people. They weren't content with their soap operas in the Wayfarer's Inn, they wanted that 'slasher horror shit' that we 'specialized in'. Some people went as far as to say we are worse than ERP-ers with our excessive practices of violence. (It was at this time the Black Temple and later Sunwell was out and we laughed off those accusations (Seriously, there were more sick and darkthemed stuff going about than my project)).

After this raid by some Belves, it all had become a power struggle. Their supporters, my supporters, their standards of RP, my standards of RP, how I dare to be a wrecking ball to the community, how they felt the need to try and ruin my gaming experience etc.

The situation ended up with butthurt all over the place. Quite a few RP-ers left the server (!) because I was backed up by longtime supporters and veterans of the realm. Some stayed and plotted to 'remove me from my office'. Others were bloody happy because my guild offered brutal, yet interesting RP as we were open to conversations and plans for larger plots and events, us taking part as what we were interpreted as.

Then I quit the game as I got bloody bored.

After 2 incarnations of my guild (Same principles, same concept, hellalot of drama), it was a fun ride. I witnessed how a realm can simply fall apart with a lack of a strong community. In both cases, my guild was not simple recognized, but rather deemed as the holy grail of Evil RP, something that has standards, can listen as long as it wants to (We were bloody arrogant towards those that didn't recognize what we were doing) and offered RP-ers, old and new, a place to start or continue inside the guild as lomg as they accepted our terms.

As lovely as that sounds, we always, ALWAYS, had 'enemies'. Not the kind that just RP being so whilst being good blokes OOC. I wanted such enemies. I had to sort out drama and stupidity in so many concievable ways to actually enjoy the game it was ridiculous. It wasn't just the character that was influential, ruthless and calculating, it was apparently me as well as a person, the guy behind the character. I was a hated, loathed monster that sought the destruction of the realm just for my own egoboost. I apparently destroyed guilds and shaped whatever I wanted to into whatever I needed to further my agenda. I cast away anyone and anything that I felt were in the way to title myself Emperor of Moonglade. Was that true? For some, yeah, it was truth.

I did enjoy rubbing it into their faces that many people sought me for RP, for events and recruitment. I enjoyed some egoclashes because I knew I will win. I didn't enjoy it because I had a furious wank in the meantime, I just found it a source of entertainment in a game I have played since it launched. I stepped on toes and said 'Oh come on, it's just a game' to taunt them, because it was for me, but it was more to them. I treated the community as a playground whilst they treated it as a social club.

I left the realm for this one and I am happy I did so. Defias Brotherhood is too good for people like me with its structure, longstanding friendships and feuds and general understanding. I enjoy my stay here and I never felt the need that 'Well, this shithole needs my sculpting hand'. Well, maybe once, but I won't point fingers.

If you want to be an influential character out of a project, it's bloody fun as long as you have the right attitude. You _will_ piss off quality and quantity RP-ers alike. You_will_ gather a troop of followers that find you a leader who has the right ideas and whatever he does is a god's bless for their own gaming experience (Actually, you may already have). But you _will_ gather enemies that feel endangered for their own RP, their own gaming experience they pay real money for, their own status amongst their pseudo-community or the actual real community from as little as a sideproject you're running and it turning out to be successful. You might or might not enjoy that. All this wall of text is just a breakdown of how you should be careful with it. I literally had this exact project running with many, many, MANY sidetracks of how people react, how I can interact with them, how to piss them off, how to make them stay, how to make them leave, how I could reach that stupid status of both tyrant and righteous crusader, and so on. Just be bloody mindful of where you're doing it.


Well now, with that out of my fucking system, it's time to make a new Den.

Edit: Regarding the numbers thing, you may have guessed we were the biggest RP Guild whenever we reincarnated. It was part of the project and a lot of our scenarios demanded strength in numbers for protection, intimidation and status. It helped create a sense of superiority, yet a very palpable sense of wrongness as there were people that joined the despicable guild of evil and egotistic RP-ers and became better RP-ers to fit in, learned a lot of things or were simply spat back into the netherrealm of 'This guy won't fit in', describing the guild as a cult of my persona where everyone worships me. Of course they never managed to get close to the huge circle of friends that operated in the guild that played other games, met up IRL, spent nights talking crap over Ventrilo or Mumble, whilst me doing everything to keep up a forum, the guild, raids, events, recruitment, applications, advertisement, helping out fresh RP-ers and dealing with in-guild drama.

Edit2: Oh yeah, for any clarification regarding about...half of this text, consult Remai if he's willing to. It'd be a very, very good perspective on all this influential characterization and how that backlashes or helps someone that's directly connected to, but doesn't base his/her gametime entirely on it. (Sorry for dragging you into this bud, but you're one of my few reliable partners in crime )

Thank you for sharing this experience, Frazl. It's always interesting to hear about other players' experiences when it comes to running guilds and handling drama, here and on other realms. It gives perspective. I only have experience from DB. I don't know anything else. You Frazl, have from two.

I'm not particularily involved in this discussion, but I must say I found that a very enjoyable read, Frazl. Thanks for sharing.

I don't tend to read blocks of text... but I must say, Frazl, that was bloody interesting. Thank you.