Re: Week 35 - Lament of a Perfectionist

by **Melnerag** Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:49 am

Disciple mass: "Light loves you, people! Let your sins be forgiven!"
Chapter mass: "Remember what Jeanpierre told you last week? HE LIED! You are all HELLBOUND unless you kill ten orcs each! Chop chop!"
Lightbringer mass: "The Chapter lied. You are not hellbound, but you should still kill ten orcs each. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing!"

by **Braiden** Tue Aug 23, 2011 9:58 am

Exaythe wrote:Disciple mass: "Light loves you, people! Let your sins be forgiven!"
Chapter mass: "Remember what Jeanpierre told you last week? HE LIED! You are all HELLBOUND unless you kill ten orcs each! Chop chop!"
Lightbringer mass: "The Chapter lied. You are not hellbound, but you should still kill ten orcs each. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing!"

by **Melnerag** Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:04 am

Having a political side for army-gathering is fun, but I still think that when it comes to campaign itself, the regiments should be mixed. Because otherwise we still end up having Seals rping with Seals and Chapterians with Chapterians. Would it not be more fun to break people up into mixed groups with some appointed officer? Very Happy

by **Braiden** Tue Aug 23, 2011 10:16 am

Exaythe wrote:Having a political side for army-gathering is fun, but I still think that when it comes to campaign itself, the regiments should be mixed. Because otherwise we still end up having Seals rping with Seals and Chapterians with Chapterians. Would it not be more fun to break people up into mixed groups with some appointed officer?

Well yes of course it should be mixed in that manner when you put it like, I'm mostly interested in such a system for the political aspect really since I havent concerned myself loads with WPvP since it's been a too exclusive scene in many ways and frankly full of issues from many sides. I think Valestrion would be the better person to explain it since he put forward the idea behind it.

by **Geldar** Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:04 pm

When we tried to arrange the battalions many did not wish to join, simple as. Some said they are not part of the Stormwind Army, even though they fielded troops, others said they are not interested and so forth, so do not think we have not tried.

Oh yeah, it was attempted as everything listed/suggested above, to clarify.

Actually, here is the full idea below that we are using, everything is courtesy to Valestrion:

Spoiler:

by **Braiden** Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:14 pm

Geldar wrote:When we tried to arrange the battalions many did not wish to join, simple as. Some said they are not part of the Stormwind Army, even though they fielded troops, others said they are not interested and so forth, so do not think we have not tried.

Some was not asked at all either. Perhaps you should have communicated the effort more openly and involved a real political aspect to gathering an army rather then just going "ok so these guys decided this and that and now it's all done, either you are in the army under this and that persons command". If this was done and I missed it I apologize, I'm just saying there is room for improvement on that point and I think Valestrion had ideas of how to improve it further as I understood it last night.

by **Geldar** Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:16 pm

It was done, Braiden. And besides, when there is lack of interest to the concept there is not much you can do, can you? I personally won't go out of my way to promote something (Even though when it was tried and the Stormwind regiment answered aswell as DoL!) when it is clear the ones that could be involved are more interested in their own personal plots.

PS: I do not believe its a lack of promotion, rather a lack of interest of people to RP an army/grunts etc.

by **Braiden** Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:22 pm

Geldar wrote:when it is clear the ones that could be involved are more interested in their own personal plots.

In a sense WPvP is part of your personal plots is it not? I would hardly expect a large turnout without effort from many sides, since that doesnt happen in any other aspect of RP either. What I am saying is that a way to get people more interesting is to have a wider RP scene when it comes to preparation and all that aswell since it adds to the interest.

by **Ledgic** Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:25 pm

When it was first suggested, I had my problems with believing it would take off properly. For the first time in a long time, it wasn't a case of thinking there were not enough people, but that interest in these things has dropped significantly from the times I'm used to.

The new community that has sprung up on Defias is ace, it really is, but it's so very dependant on personal plots and closed circles, meaning that large community efforts are often harder to bring about. Even with these meetings, where people advertise and discuss matters, it still ends up with people choosing to RP with those in their guild, or a guild theirs happens to be close to.

So, I wouldn't want people thinking that the likes of Valestrion and Geldar didn't put enough effort into their Stormwind Army ideas, because frankly I saw how enthusiastic they were about it, and I quite liked the idea myself. It's just a case of people not caring, probably because the wpvp scene is so very scattered.

Not much use for a giant allied army if there is nobody to fight, for example.

by **Geldar** Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:26 pm

I meant in general, not just World PvP. When it comes to preparing and arranging the scene for military RP, we know what to do to make it interesting, politics involved.

It just seems its one of those things that people are reluctant to RP these days, that is all.

by **Jeanpierre** Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:38 pm

Exaythe wrote:
"Grand Mass" - (bi)weekly gathering in the cathedral, giving every guild a chance to parade in full glory and show off its numbers. Handing out of blessings and reading of sermons.

Let's no longer discuss this as an idea but as a plan. I'll make it happen alone if I have to... And I know I won't be. Will you do the honours Exaythe? It's your idea Smile

Exaythe wrote:Disciple mass: "Light loves you, people! Let your sins be forgiven!"
Chapter mass: "Remember what Jeanpierre told you last week? HE LIED! You are all HELLBOUND unless you kill ten orcs each! Chop chop!"
Lightbringer mass: "The Chapter lied. You are not hellbound, but you should still kill ten orcs each. Evil triumphs when good men do nothing!"

I lol'd... hard.

Geldar wrote:It just seems its one of those things that people are reluctant to RP these days, that is all.

I would have gladly proven you wrong, but I've run out of time to do it Sad

It requires a level of dedication to organize which my personal life can no longer commit to. However, I still try and will do my best to support such projects as I can.

@Perturbo: I wouldn't mind a guild "Church of the Light", but I'm not convinced Anethion is the style for it. However, such a central order might perhaps have solved some of the issues I addressed regarding this community and how its self centred focus made it impossible to get something going. Perhaps such a guild could gather enough support to form a central theme... accessible enough for most orders to play along.

by **Braiden** Tue Aug 23, 2011 12:52 pm

Ledgic Caan wrote:The new community that has sprung up on Defias is ace, it really is, but it's so very dependant on personal plots and closed circles, meaning that large community efforts are often harder to bring about. Even with these meetings, where people advertise and discuss matters, it still ends up with people choosing to RP with those in their guild, or a guild theirs happens to be close to.

It could be said that the militairy RP is just as guild oriented as the ones you are describing, even in larger efforts to gather the army under "one banner" so to speak there's a select number of guilds/individuals contacted making it a select few that gets the chance to join in at all.

Ledgic Caan wrote:So, I wouldn't want people thinking that the likes of Valestrion and Geldar didn't put enough effort into their Stormwind Army ideas, because frankly I saw how enthusiastic they were about it, and I quite liked the idea myself. It's just a case of people not caring, probably because the wpvp scene is so very scattered

I'm not saying they didnt put enough effort into the idea itself really, I'm just saying it could be developed much further with a more open dialogue that would take in more suggestions.

Geldar wrote:I meant in general, not just World PvP. When it comes to preparing and arranging the scene for military RP, we know what to do to make it interesting, politics involved.

Do you open that playing field to all players then? Is it something that you have been communicating trough the forums and whatnot as something for people other then select "important characters" to be a part off? Is it so perfect that there could not be anything at all added? I still claim that I have not seen enough open communication happen, making it the same closed circle RP you state is the main issue. I also say that you are too locked on your niche to see the potential for a much wider RP scene.

Anyhow I am not in any way saying that you people have not put effort into the idea, I'm just pressing the communication part. I also know Valestrion had some suggestions for further improvements, I'm looking forward to seeing the feedback when he puts them forward so to speak.

by **Geldar** Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:11 pm

Most if not all Storwmind guilds were contacted regarding this matter, from all of them only the Stormwind Regiment and the DoL were interested. Rest we got more or less turned down from. Concept was discussed ingame and everything was done ingame.

We've decided to focus more on the World PvP side afterwards, due to the lack of interest and do 'business' with the other Alliance factions than just to stay within Stormwind, have a larger Alliance perspective of matters as it was shown on the past RP PvP campaign, and it worked out pretty well.

I'd even consider focusing mainly on that instead of a Stormwind only army, atleast when you speak Alliance wide, you've much more players and guilds that might be interested than as you said the 'closed circle RP'.

PS: As for if its open to all of the players, the only requirement is for the one (Player) to be loyal to the King, that is all.

by **Ledgic** Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:29 pm

Ledgic Caan wrote:The new community that has sprung up on Defias is ace, it really is, but it's so very dependant on personal plots and closed circles, meaning that large community efforts are often harder to bring about. Even with these meetings, where people advertise and discuss matters, it still ends up with people choosing to RP with those in their guild, or a guild theirs happens to be close to.

It could be said that the militairy RP is just as guild oriented as the ones you are describing, even in larger efforts to gather the army under "one banner" so to speak there's a select number of guilds/individuals contacted making it a select few that gets the chance to join in at all.

Military RP is of course guild orientated, I wasn't excluding the guilds of that nature because as I consider it, they are part of the new community as well. My point was, that nobody gives a toss when it involves banding together and making something large. Even when everything is communicated to everyone, we still see next to no interest from those that you'd expect it of.

The "select" few that get contacted about mass ideas, will be all of those within that specific area of RP. Sure, it's select due to the fact we wouldn't contact an artist to be part of an army, but beyond that it's perfectly open.

I stand by my point that people prefer to sit and RP in their circles, heck even I've been doing that for the past year, because the vast majority of the community I was a part of is long gone. I've started to make an effort, but that is purely due to wanting -more- RP. Which, unfortunately is looking bleak if guilds are ignoring each other for the most part.

by **Braiden** Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:45 pm

Geldar wrote:I'd even consider focusing mainly on that instead of a Stormwind only army, atleast when you speak Alliance wide, you've much more players and guilds that might be interested than as you said the 'closed circle RP'.

Well then dont focus on it, it's a tad strange for the Stormwind Minister of War to consider doing it alliance wide only and exclude the political RP there is potential for. I myself wouldnt say one thing excluded the other.

Geldar wrote:Most if not all Storwmind guilds were contacted regarding this matter, from all of them only the Stormwind Regiment and the DoL were interested. Rest we got more or less turned down from. Concept was discussed ingame and everything was done ingame.

I know of at least one example were a guild was not contacted and there's likely more since there's the human factor, the forums would have helped getting out to those that wasnt already contacted and would have given it a more open "feel" in general. After all why the heck do we have these forums if not to reach out and communicate to improve the community as a whole?

Ledgic Caan wrote:Military RP is of course guild orientated, I wasn't excluding the guilds of that nature because as I consider it, they are part of the new community as well. My point was, that nobody gives a toss when it involves banding together and making something large. Even when everything is communicated to everyone, we still see next to no interest from those that you'd expect it of.

Perhaps there would be interest from those that you'd not expect it of. I dont see what harm it would do if it exists on print anyways like it usually does. It doesnt help just saying that "people prefer to RP in their closed circuits", it is still optimal to reach out to as many people as possible trough several channels.

by **Melnerag** Tue Aug 23, 2011 1:58 pm

Provided we get consent from all the major SW guilds to try 'Stormwind Army' again, will it be enough inscentive to give it another shot?

by **Ledgic** Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:14 pm

Perhaps there would be interest from those that you'd not expect it of. I dont see what harm it would do if it exists on print anyways like it usually does. It doesnt help just saying that "people prefer to RP in their closed circuits", it is still optimal to reach out to as many people as possible trough several channels.

My point is, people that would have made sense to be part of a Stormwind army -were- contacted. My example of not contacting the artist to come and lead a war effort rings true once again.

What I've said about people RP'ing in their circles is not me giving up and saying that there is nothing we can do, it is my observation. And it's an observation that will be rather difficult to dissprove at the moment. There are lines in RP that hurt my brain to cross, and one of those is people doing something their characters would never do in a million years. That goes for people trying to join a war effort that have no logical reason to do so.

And to Exaythe, I'd very much like to see a second shot taken with the Stormwind Army effort. Because I think it allows a lot of bonding between the guilds involved, which is going to work out in the long run, not to mention increase casual RP between the members of various guilds.

by **Seranita** Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:23 pm

on a side note.. i dunno if this helps when i first joined this forum neerly 2 years ago, neerly every week there were new events.. like fishing for children or running the elwyn forest in ya skimmies.. all simply for sport and/or charety.. it was things like this that kept random rp and kept people as just civies.. as these were purley open events that everyone could attend.. you didnt need to be IN a guild to join in..
sadly one of the majour orgenisors of this type of event Elloa is no longer with us .. it was from this point that random rp and civie rp slowly started to die.. people allied themselves with a guild and things got seperated... there was no one to keep things mixed up as no one stood in to fill her place.. you deer exythe have also done well but most of your events can be somewhat guild orientated in itself.. (im in no way blaming you exythe you do a wonderfull job at what you do just to clarify)

what we need now is far more of this random rp as I fear pushing all the majour guilds together thow efectingly creating 1 shadow super guild.. will only exasperate the problem of there being no casual rp in and around the majour cities.... perhaps we could also try doing many of these more humble.. civilian events.. just a thort there

by **Braiden** Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:31 pm

Ledgic Caan wrote:My point is, people that would have made sense to be part of a Stormwind army -were- contacted.

It's obvious that the people involved knows of every single character and guild that would make sense to have... or not. It's this mindset that narrows the selection down to the closed circuit that it is currently. I'm not argueing that we should draft every single character to have more people for the war effort, I'm merely saying that you cant say it's illogical for someone to be a part of the army since you cant possibly know every character and guild. If we continue to have all of the communication happening in the dark people will feel left out and eventually place the blame in the most likely place (obviously the council as it's always been) even tough it's just simple lack of communication.

Once again I have not said that it's not true that people is RPing in closed circles either but repeating it several times when there's a suggestion to try and communicate things trough several channels to reach out to more people seems rather pointless to me. It's like you give up before it's even started even tough you say otherwise in the next sentence.

by **Seranita** Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:36 pm

can i just point to my post again? Sad

by **Melnerag** Tue Aug 23, 2011 2:54 pm

Speaking for myself now. Suppose I lead the Chapter, and somebody is going to ask me: "Hey, we are making The Stormwind Army! It will be awesome, guilds working together to form the Stormwind's military!" I would probably say 'no thank you'. If they approach me and say "Hey, we are making a group of guilds working together to promote world-pvp and military-rp!" I would say "HELL YEAH!" even though, in both cases, the one asking is talking about the same thing.

So perhaps this idea should be given another shot, with different wordings!

by **Lexgrad** Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:49 pm

In most ye oldie armies, apart from maybe the romans, professional troops where a rare thing. An idea i had the first time dreth tried to join the council was to set up militias. There would be no real pinch on those in the militia, they could do as they like, but could be used in in Wpvp events. Ergo military rp light. As for the holy guilds and W pvp... we all know what a crusade is right XD

by **Seranita** Tue Aug 23, 2011 3:58 pm

*sighs*

by **Braiden** Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:20 pm

Monrena (Chareshia) wrote:on a side note.. i dunno if this helps when i first joined this forum neerly 2 years ago, neerly every week there were new events.. like fishing for children or running the elwyn forest in ya skimmies.. all simply for sport and/or charety.. it was things like this that kept random rp and kept people as just civies.. as these were purley open events that everyone could attend.. you didnt need to be IN a guild to join in..
sadly one of the majour orgenisors of this type of event Elloa is no longer with us .. it was from this point that random rp and civie rp slowly started to die.. people allied themselves with a guild and things got seperated... there was no one to keep things mixed up as no one stood in to fill her place.. you deer exythe have also done well but most of your events can be somewhat guild orientated in itself.. (im in no way blaming you exythe you do a wonderfull job at what you do just to clarify)

what we need now is far more of this random rp as I fear pushing all the majour guilds together thow efectingly creating 1 shadow super guild.. will only exasperate the problem of there being no casual rp in and around the majour cities.... perhaps we could also try doing many of these more humble.. civilian events.. just a thort there

Not to sound like a douche or anything but isnt it up to all of us to contribute in this manner? I for one try to make some open events once in a while, there's always particular niches to all events so there's no ultimate event that's fitting for every single character in the community (prove me wrong!). I'd say if you want these kinds of events then start a few up. If you are feeling inspired sometime just follow that inspiration and ask for assistance if you need it, I'm sure there are plenty of people that would love to help. Try your wings instead of waiting for others to carry you on their backs.

by **Ledgic** Tue Aug 23, 2011 4:27 pm

Once again I have not said that it's not true that people is RPing in closed circles either but repeating it several times when there's a suggestion to try and communicate things trough several channels to reach out to more people seems rather pointless to me. It's like you give up before it's even started even tough you say otherwise in the next sentence.

There is every point and reason to place my observation in this thread, even I apparently have to repeat it several times. I understand that people have suggested communication via different channels, this forum, yadda yadda. But it doesn't change the fact that multiple ways of communicating with one another have existed for a very long time. I haven't given up on the idea of a community RP'ing together and getting things going, I'm saying that from my observation, many people and guilds have done just that.

Communication is all well and good, and I support it. But bashing on me because I say people aren't listening, isn't going to fix it anymore than me sitting here telling you the obvious Rolling Eyes

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