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Heavy Armor & shields / Magic / Arrows & Bullets - your thoughts?

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Jayse
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Post by Janela Thunderwing Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:16 am

One thing that annoyes me is when a knight in full platemail dives after a rogue/hunter into the Stormwind channal. A rogue/hunter should be able to swim away to safety due to their light armour. Rogues can even stealth in the water since no channal in a medival city should be clean enough to see any longer in then a feet or two.

But when the knight in his shining armour jumps into the water he/she should sink like a rock. No human can or will ever swim in a platemail. (I've tried to swim in a 5kg chainmail, it's not recommended) To jump or get thrown into the water should be the death of any heavily armourd character!

To remove your armour before jumping into the water is a possible way to go, just remember that your armour could be stolen and that it'll take you atleast five minutes to remove any serious kind of armour.
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Post by Guest Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:58 am

Death Knight path of frost is the way to go. xD

But yeah, otherwise, I have to agree.

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Post by Raelo/Lucanor Thu Mar 11, 2010 7:23 am

Sanari wrote:

Well, the Gnomes have lasers and all sorts, so there's nothing to suggest rifling couldn't be possible.

If you want to see gnomish rifles, I suggest you take a look around Toshley's Station.
Also:

Everybody should be a Gnome. <3
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Post by Jeanpierre Thu Mar 11, 2010 1:53 pm

As far as the armor vs bullets go.. heck, watch this:
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/pirate-vs-knight/31860

TBH.. I think it's bull people find themselves so often in a life or death situation. People draw their guns and blades with such ease in Stormwind. I have friends in the army and their missions are often safer than buying groceries in Stormwind.
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Post by Nayan Thu Mar 11, 2010 2:10 pm

darmagnac wrote:TBH.. I think it's bull people find themselves so often in a life or death situation. People draw their guns and blades with such ease in Stormwind. I have friends in the army and their missions are often safer than buying groceries in Stormwind.
Eeeeeeeexactly my point in an earlier post. ^^
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Post by Jeanpierre Thu Mar 11, 2010 4:08 pm

Another point, related to but not entirely the same discussion, is 'why things always have to be so powerfull'. Why does a shield have to stop bullets and mages have to be able to melt shields in an instant? Especially around magic, I'm surprised there's so much "power" being thrown accross the board. "I blast you with so much power everything is destroyed in its path". "And I blast you with even more power." "What does the scouter say about his powerlevel?"

Magic is like chess. 100 kilos of bulking metal come charging in. You could chose to drain your powers with tremendous fireworks... or you could wet the floor with frost and watch Dumbo on ice! Armor and momentum become a damaging factor in a fall. Or build a block of ice and watch how his charge turns into an obstacle course.
Heck.. create an illusion or smoke to obscure senses! Heating a weapon to make it unbearable to hold feels a bit odd but still beats 'melting armor'. And if you really 'are powerfull' try to be original! Throw lightning at that lantern and watch the magnets make short work of his armor... and that hot chick's chastity belt.

EDIT: of course, fighting always requires cooperation of the other party so keep it reasonable and fun. No chick will like her chastity belt to be stuck on a lantern, for example Wink
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Post by Jomir Thu Mar 11, 2010 5:47 pm

darmagnac wrote:As far as the armor vs bullets go.. heck, watch this:
http://www.spike.com/full-episode/pirate-vs-knight/31860

I love that show, and was going to mention something about this particular fight but you beat me to it Razz
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Post by Nayan Thu Mar 11, 2010 6:42 pm

darmagnac wrote:I'm surprised there's so much "power" being thrown accross the board. "I blast you with so much power everything is destroyed in its path". "And I blast you with even more power." "What does the scouter say about his powerlevel?"
Fear not!

But yeah, serious duck says: that sort of thing is just... bad.
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Post by Deinhardt Tue Mar 16, 2010 5:07 am

to be frank, it all comes down to the matter of mutual exchange, and your own judgement on how that "grand swing" will have for effect on your character, i for one think i have actually lost more fights than i've won em and believe me, those where one of the best fights i've had, plus being undead brings a whole new level of damage control to the table. i remember one skirmish infront of ye old guldu's tavern, angry orcs and a merry band of thieves, me, having lost my arm in a previous engagement in the week is obviously no match for this large orc on a warworg, but still i make the best of it and obviously loses, buying some time for my comrades to return the favour. Of course, this event echoed in Thargh's continuing(un)life's story for weeks

although i understand your concern marrenus, losing can be quite awesome aswell if the opponent isn't a total breadskull. For example i would never emote "fires of a hail of icy touches, shattering all of <target>'s bones!"..that..is just plain retarded. Another example could be the small frame of an undead, lets say i block that swing with a clean parry, but is batted away due to my own lack of weight, i just parried the opponents attempt at slashing me, but at the same time created an opening, putting me at a disadvantage.

All of this written above is of course Void when poweremoting and that ungodly topic is in play.

To make it short, will an armored human wink his shining good eyes and slice this leather clad highwayman to bits?..No..will the highwayman LOLOWN the armored human in the blink of an eye?..no, Common courtesy,Respect and knowing your limits wins fights.

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Post by Jayse Tue Mar 16, 2010 9:40 am

I really don't see the point in this thread to be fair. It's all just common sense if you think about it logically..

Jay does tend to carry alot of gear with him (when he's prepared for a fight that is) And will use most every available means for him.

When I RP fight I don't instantly go for the kill, he'll try and disable his opponent or use the environment.

But when attacking someone I always speak OOC with them and never instantly go for a killing shot. I tend to RP to disable at best and avoid going overboard (IE: Fires his pistol aiming for the head) /w You should now be dead kkthnxbye!)

Infact if i'm honest I allow alot more freedom to the target then 'realistically' would be allowed.

Play it by ear and have fun and be imaginative!

Cheers

TBH.. I think it's bull people find themselves so often in a life or death situation. People draw their guns and blades with such ease in Stormwind. I have friends in the army and their missions are often safer than buying groceries in Stormwind.

The Truth *sagenod*
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Post by Navoe Wed Mar 17, 2010 2:45 pm

darmagnac wrote:

TBH.. I think it's bull people find themselves so often in a life or death situation. People draw their guns and blades with such ease in Stormwind. I have friends in the army and their missions are often safer than buying groceries in Stormwind.

Mmmh, this. I gave up on RPing when I for three days straight managed to get killed.
I don't quite get it how the fully armored deathknight manages to get cut down by thugs with daggers*. OH WELL**.



*Rogues.
**I went back to playing a thug- Rogue after this.

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Post by Guest Wed Mar 17, 2010 3:27 pm

I always hated rogues who think they can dodge everything and stab through 5 inches of armor with their level 10 kitchen knife. Let alone do anything with their witty tricks against a walking corpse who feels no pain (Well, coming to think of it, shotguns are pretty neat against zombies *hint hint*).

I might have been a bit of a god myself here and there; But I can't take someone dodging a broadsword while cornered in a prison cell seriously.

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Post by Jeanpierre Wed Mar 17, 2010 4:21 pm

Well.. A 'unrecognizable' rogue once asked my gold. I panicked and frooze in fear right on the spot. I was rewarded with a godemoted backstab. Honestly, if it happens again, i'm coming back with an alt and kill him with a spoon!

And he shall not stop me!
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Post by Nassulra / Dobkins Thu Mar 25, 2010 6:46 pm

darmagnac wrote:Well.. A 'unrecognizable' rogue once asked my gold. I panicked and frooze in fear right on the spot. I was rewarded with a godemoted backstab. Honestly, if it happens again, i'm coming back with an alt and kill him with a spoon!

And he shall not stop me!

I can't stop loving that video Surprised
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Post by Guest Tue Mar 30, 2010 2:56 pm

... Rogue (archer/assassin) > Mage > Warrior > Rogue > Mage > Warrior > ...

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Post by (Goggy) - Exilius Tue Mar 30, 2010 4:27 pm

Yeah, well, put Undead on any of those labeled classes after the Rogue, and I'd call... BULLSHIT!
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Post by Nassulra / Dobkins Tue Mar 30, 2010 10:25 pm

Well.. I see it a bit as in Dungeons & Dragons..
Fighters are far supirior to Wizards until around.. Level 15 or so, then the spellcaster will become extremely strong with incridibly powerful spells of destruction (And doom). While the fighter is only fairly decent.

And to rogues, well.. That's a bit tricky. But..

To my knowledge.. The Teutonic Knights wore heavyplate to battle and was extremely unsucessful, the weight and fatique.

I remember being on a tour at an old medival fortress called Hammershus, in Denmark. After the tour, the guide answered our questions and such.. And he basicly said the soldiers would never wear heavy plate in battle, and only used them for ceremony.. Again because of the fatique problems.
Chainmail was much easier to move in and thus that was what they used mostly.

That's basicly what i could think of atm Razz
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Post by Jeanpierre Wed Mar 31, 2010 8:19 am

Well, reading, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour
I think the following quotes might be of interest:

Plate armour was used by the ancient Greeks and Romans, but it fell into disuse after the collapse of the Roman Empire because of the cost and work involved.
...
Single plates of metal armour were again used from the late 13th century on.
...
Full plate armour was expensive to produce and remained therefore restricted to the upper strata of society
...
lavishly decorated suits of armour remained the fashion with 18th century nobles and generals long after they had ceased to be militarily useful
...
Armour was not confined to the Middle Ages, and in fact was widely used by most armies until the end of the 17th century for both foot and mounted troops.

It might be noted that the article focused around Spain, Italy, England and Germany. Perhaps in Denmark plated armor was less popular. It would not surprise me if their environmental conditions (more water -> more mud -> more risk being hindred by the weight) would have influenced it.
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Post by Nassulra / Dobkins Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:18 am

darmagnac wrote:Well, reading, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour
I think the following quotes might be of interest:

Plate armour was used by the ancient Greeks and Romans, but it fell into disuse after the collapse of the Roman Empire because of the cost and work involved.
...
Single plates of metal armour were again used from the late 13th century on.
...
Full plate armour was expensive to produce and remained therefore restricted to the upper strata of society
...
lavishly decorated suits of armour remained the fashion with 18th century nobles and generals long after they had ceased to be militarily useful
...
Armour was not confined to the Middle Ages, and in fact was widely used by most armies until the end of the 17th century for both foot and mounted troops.

It might be noted that the article focused around Spain, Italy, England and Germany. Perhaps in Denmark plated armor was less popular. It would not surprise me if their environmental conditions (more water -> more mud -> more risk being hindred by the weight) would have influenced it.

Yeah there might me some truth in that *Looks out through the window, rain.. Mud.. Wet grass..* Aye..
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Post by Zinkle Figgins Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:26 am

darmagnac wrote:Well, reading, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plate_armour
I think the following quotes might be of interest:

It might be noted that the article focused around Spain, Italy, England and Germany. Perhaps in Denmark plated armor was less popular. It would not surprise me if their environmental conditions (more water -> more mud -> more risk being hindred by the weight) would have influenced it.

As far as I know, in Italy such armors were uncommon, since starting from the 13th century the several communes relied on mercenaries instead of lords' armies, and these mercenaries used light armors or poor-quality ones Wink
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Post by Nassulra / Dobkins Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:40 am

Oh just one thought, the roman plates.. Weren't that only breastplate? Which mean they would have lotsa weakspots for archers and rogues to go stabby stabby.
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Post by Zinkle Figgins Wed Mar 31, 2010 9:48 am

Nassulra / Dobkins wrote:Oh just one thought, the roman plates.. Weren't that only breastplate? Which mean they would have lotsa weakspots for archers and rogues to go stabby stabby.

Consider that the scutum (their huge rectangural shield) was a fundamental part of the armor.
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Post by Jeanpierre Wed Mar 31, 2010 11:42 am

Well, I wouldn't derive rules from the wiki article. I'm just showing that plated armor has existed for a long time and was used for a long time.

How it is to be used in the game is a different matter. I certainly would not conclude in any way that a man in plate is superior by default but I would not consider it clever to make a frontal assault on such a man with close combat weapons.
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Post by Jayse Wed Mar 31, 2010 12:28 pm

Also some of the best battles are fought without a weapon even being drawn. Just use a little common sense and real world perspective on things that we can apply to.

Anyone looking to outwardly take on a heavily armoured oppenent in open ground would be either:

1) Batshit crazy..
2) Equipped with a very good gameplan..
3) Hoping they can tire them out enough to be able to use that to thier advantage..
4) Taking them completley by suprise with a noticable weakspot..
5) Mounted in a Mech..
6) Nuking the site from orbit..
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Post by Lini Wed Mar 31, 2010 7:28 pm

7) Using non-projectile spells that can't be reflected.
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