Heavy Armor & shields / Magic / Arrows & Bullets - your thoughts?

I've been stuck thinking about this for a while now, so I'll just ask everyone's thoughts on this.

Being a paladin / warrior myself, I lean towards shields & armor being above ranged weapons in power, which are above magic; Here is why.

- You can train and equip an archer in about a week; He or she will have basic leather or light mail equipment and will be capable of killing MAGES with one good accurate headshot. WARRIORS or PALADINS usually wear a helmet and, while it won't leave them totally unharmed, it WILL save them against one-hit death in most situations.

- Plate-wearers take a while to train, however, they are far more capable to survive than archers or mages due to

A) Heavy armor which would generally save them from majority of melee or ranged weapons.
A 0.5) Guns. Some people believe flintlock pistols can be used to pierce through armor; THIS IS BULLSHIT!
B) Shield which can be used against spells just like it can be used against other more common weapons.

- MAGES (Think Warlocks, Priests, that sorta thing) have to train for years, decades, ages to really master their art. Such book-worming leaves them next to no strength for proper armor or any form of "physical" combat, however, they are more than capable of destroying anything they want, but only if they are left alone. Generally speaking, a mage with his nose bleeding will have hard time reading spells, with obvious results on his performance.

I may be wrong, of course, but somehow I do not understand how can a ranger / a rifleman / a ninja-pirate defeat a shield-wielding warrior. Mages, I'll give them that, may try to boil him alive or use some other fancy magic, but I see no logical explaination for a full-metal guard to even get a scratch in a (fire)fight with a ninja-pirate using his uber leet pistols of awesomeness. I'd like to hear more thoughts on the subject other than my own.

How does a light weight combatant defeat a heavily armoured one? Run away until the heavily armoured one collapses under the weight of their own 'defense', then nip in and poke them in the eye with your poison covered dagger.

Very little combat, and the means of fighting it, can be boiled down to 'x beats y'. It's incredibly situational. I know your comparisons are hypothetical, but you've simplified them to absurdity and then ignored things you don't like.

As a trivial example: Mages have magic. The chances of them not being able to wtfpwn whatever they chose by not having to abide by the laws of physics everyone else adheres to is fairly slim. Archer shoots at them? Magic shield! Warrior hits them with big pointy stick? Aha! That was just an illusion of me! I'm actually in a tower on the moon blasting you with space rocks!

Run away until the heavily armoured one collapses under the weight of their own 'defense', then nip in and poke them in the eye with your poison covered dagger.

That is a good strategy, indeed, if not for the fact most of us, plate-wearing lot, tend to carry a big gun around in addition to our regular big pointy sticks.

And Captain America a Paladin will just throw his/her magical shield or hammer at your direction.

Mages... Mages... Got me there. But I doubt they'll be able to shield themselves if they don't know what hit them; Which is without a doubt not going to happen in WoW RP either way. xD

I heard crossbows we're outlawed once because they made it so easy too kill armored targets.... in soviet azeroth crossbow = gun = bow?

Like Shriyaro said, nothing is quite clear cut when it comes to fighting. If you want some sort of semi-"realistic" rock-paper-scissors relationship between various fighting style there's none to be had. A sword to the gut kills you just as well as a arrow hitting the face (though the latter is much faster). The most armoured and well trained knight in the world can still be killed by four unexperienced peasants because they manage to grab his arms and stick a dagger through the slit in his helmet.

Besides... there are some errors based on myths in your assumptions:
Archers do, contrary to popular belief, take a lot of time to train. The very reason powerful bows went out of fashion wasn't because they were weaker than guns but because it took between ten and twenty years to train a professional archer (about five for good crossbowmen, one year for a poor one. Compare to the couple of weeks you need for a musketeer/rifleman).

And even if plate is virtually inpenetrable to a single arrow, the force of the arrow as it hits can still be enough to break the bones under it. It didn't take longbows to manage to knock knights off their horses. Furthermore... there'll be more than one arrow... and eventually one will get through by simply wearing the armour down and no armour covers completely either, there's plenty of chances for an arrow to get through in the joints or the helmet (the faceguard is generally incapabale of stopping arrows).

But generally... plate and shield will make you virtually quite safe against arrows. Being killed by arrows in such gears is generally more bad luck than due to the weapon/skill of the archer. Mind... that the archers can still pin you down. If you try to advance while being shot at the risk of dying increases exponentially.

Also: Seeing that most soldiers are very well trained (particulary melee ones) and armour is made to fit the wearer like a glove. Trying to outrun a platewearer will most likely end up with him catching up (unless you drop everything weighing you down, especially the weapon, and start running for your life).

I heard crossbows we're outlawed once because they made it so easy too kill armored targets.... in soviet azeroth crossbow = gun = bow?

Mind that plate did not exist in the time this papal bann came into effect. Plate didn't arrive en masse until almost 200 years later. Once they arrived most mercs. shifted their weaponry to crossbows and pikes.

Gahalla wrote:



Also: Seeing that most soldiers are very well trained (particulary melee ones) and armour is made to fit the wearer like a glove. Trying to outrun a platewearer will most likely end up with him catching up (unless you drop everything weighing you down, especially the weapon, and start running for your life).

Reminds me of a story in TES:4 Obvivion, about a guy who was faster in his armor than without it.

Spellbooks are heavy!

And what do you think my water voidwalker is for? xD

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:I heard crossbows we're outlawed once because they made it so easy too kill armored targets.... in soviet azeroth crossbow = gun = bow?

The church once outlawed crossbows beceause it penetrated a knight's armour far too easy. In that age, knights were the big guys who were supposed to pwn everyone with style and honour. They were the rich people who had trained all their lives and could affort expensive armour and horses, unlike the general footmen who were generally just farmers with a pointed stick or a bow. A knight being killed so easily by a crossbow, that was not just honourless, that had to be the devil!
That was even before any guns came. Generally, a good hit with a crossbows or guns would penetrate plate armour, and even a normal bow had a fair chance of doing that. However, a hit that penetrates your armour won't kill you instantly unless it was in the heart/head.
So I have to disagree with Marrenus on that regardless of your armour, a ninja/pirate will pown you if at the right position, unfortunately. The trick is to get to them before they can shoot at you. If you're close, you've won half the fight already, as you got the advantage of armour, a good training and a melee weapon, while they lack good armour and can't aim at you without taking a moment, in which you can cut them down. And what most people seem to forget (thank you Legolas...) is that it takes a few seconds to load, and a few more to shoot with ranged weapon (especially guns and crossbows take a while to load).

Now there's mages... mage armour + setting people on fire by just moving your fingers... I find it very hard not to overpower my mage whenever I emotefight with him.

Muspel wrote:
That was even before any guns came. Generally, a good hit with a crossbows or guns would penetrate plate armour, and even a normal bow had a fair chance of doing that..

This is actually not true. A really lucky hit would go through yes, but those were rare. Plate is just as inpenetrable to muskets/early rifles as it is to bows and crossbows. It will more or less deflect or shatter all projectiles. This added to the fact that most early guns would have difficulty hitting the broadside of a barn (in the napoleonic era, only every 500th or so shot actually scored a hit).

While arrows, bolts and shots can get through plate. One needs to wear it down a fair deal first.

It was in fact the pike that ended the era of knights. Not the longbow/crossbow/firearm.

now, we need to seperate the OOC part (historical justification) and the IC part.

True as it may be that a rogue like character with throwing daggers, a flintlocke pistol and all the agility in the world could not defeat your average plate-wearing joe if we are in a realistic medieval period.

However, when playing this game we will have to accept that things are not realistic. Wether one character is able to defeat another cannot simply be determined by the arnament he is wearing and the realistic arguments he can pose.

If you play the sneaky rogue from before, you want to be (atleast) as dangerous as the knight-in-shining armor. It might feel unrealistic at first, but this is a fantasy setting, things aren't ment to be realistic.

In short:
-remember that RP doesn't have to be realistic, IE arguments over realism is mostly pointless when it comes to fighting
-everyone want their character to be just as powerful as the next guy, even if he chooses to play a pirate, a barbarian, a mage or a paladin, IE you accept the unrealistic powerlevel because it is fair that everyone is somewhat equal in strength OOCly.

You people are forgetting one big thing.

THE SHIELDS!

Skilled warriors play defensive; Or rather, they use their shield to it's full pottential, not just hold it to protect their left side. They cover behind it most of the time and avoid damage that way (See 300 spartans, or any general police action with shields). So, if you're an archer or a gunsman facing a skilled warrior, most of the time you'll only see a shield walking towards you. So regardless of what are you shooting, a shortbow or a mortar, the shield will save the warrior from your attack (Although the later might knock him back).

Same with mages. While I don't understand how spell reflection is supposed to work, it does, so if a mage throws his uber power rays of impending doom at the shielded warrior, he risks eating them himself.

That is why in real life, shields were far more common than two-handed weapons (Warhammers, Waraxes and Halberds were invented to open the tin can knights hide in) or dual wielding (Which is just stupid).

Mordazan:
If you play a sneaky rogue, you should accept that there is NO WAY IN HELL your tiny little daggers will hit through inches of metal. You can, however, use your dodgy moves to outsmart the warrior, you have poison, blinding powder, all that good stuff. And as people above mentioned, armor does not cover 100% of your body, so if you sneak behind a warrior you may be able to hit the spot where the armor plates are connected. See Assassin's creed for general whereabouts of Rogue Versus Plate.

As much as you can accuse me of powerplaying plate armor because it makes sense, I can accuse you of doing the same by not taking it into account; Both parties having fun is important, yes, but not if it's against common sense. Following your logic I can say a level 1 character with a pitchfork can destroy my level 80 warrior in smexy Dreadnaught outfit, because he, too, has his right to enjoy RP!

Destroying someone mentally is much more fun than physically.

/Facepalm at this thread.

Challenge number one: Try to charge something in plate armor without using a horse!
Challenge number two: Try to shoot something with massive steel bracers, gloves and sleeves!
Challenge number three: Run for a minute without exhausting yourself!
Challenge number four: Survive a magical fire attack without your armor horribly melting your armor to your skin!

@ 1 & 3: Done. Plate armor that's properly fitted and strapped to your body is much easier to move around in than it's reputation. Even with a suit of chain beneath the plate.

A loose chain mail is probably the worst you can wear as it'll constantly shift around, slow your movements (especially your arms if it goes all the way down to your wrists) and put a horrible load on your shoulders.

We're not talking about aluminium here, nor your latex larp gear. We're talking full, non-industrial, medieval steel with ofcourse a ringmail supporting it, else you're not ne-he-hearly fully protected. That's more than half your body weight in armor. You can forget about that sprint-charge to the front line. Let alone winning a running contest with someone who wears comfy leather lederhosen.

Edit: Even though you might move easily, the sheer weight will put a huge strain on your stamina.

Unless you be an Undead like myself! Blessed with unholy strenght and endurance aswell as the benefits that comes with being undead! Olo Bullets and arrows? Pfsh

I've not run around in full plate, but I'm pretty sure the good old frenchies have had problems with mud a couple of times which have led to their downfall. At least one of them was mud + plate = exhaustion, drowning and death. It can't be THAT easy to move around in.

We are talking about a world which includes ressurection, teleportation through magic, teleportation through technology, body enlargement, food that somehow makes you more agile for an hour, dragons who focus on a tank that pinches them and says "ur mom smells" rather than 24 people blasting it down with 200.000 damage per second, trans-continent voyages that take 30 seconds, invisible walls, wyverns-drakes-horses stored magically in some trinket and can be summoned anywhere but not indoors and not in Azeroth, 1,2m tall gnomes dualwielding 2m long massive axes AND being agile enough to run around and bunnyhop...

...understandable and nice, as these concerns and discussions are, do keep in mind that our everyday world perception is not that of World of Warcraft.

And then there is game mechanics and RP, but Nayan's point is one which is often used and in many cases correct!

Magically enchanted metals and plate, same for weaponry and potentially magically enchanted arrows. There be a ton of loopholes and overall things that are supernatural and make little sense with our perception of reality.

Heck' I got a frikkin' Horse with fiery legs and unholy eyes which flies! ( Without wings or Goblin Engines taped onto it's ass! 8D

(Goggy) - Exilius wrote: Goblin Engines taped onto it's ass! 8D

Sun damn if that wouldn't be kick ass

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:

(Goggy) - Exilius wrote: ...horse... Goblin Engines taped onto it's ass! 8D

Sun damn if that wouldn't be kick ass

There it is, recent picture from a Gnomish Image Flattener (G.I.F.)

PS: And on topic, in fewer words... if you wonder how bullets can stop on a mage's cloth armor, explain to me scientifically first how that mage portals to Shattrath.

Considering the lack of realism such a game like this is, there wont ever be, yeah I am pessimistic here, an agreement of "rules" from class to class on who as, what as, why that makes this beat that in an rp fight. Especially an emote fight, as duels gives less room for levels to not be considered and I do not see that as a topic here I will not go into that debate as well.

I am for realism to the degree that:
Would my character with her sane mind, charge at or attempt to get involved/risk involvement with a fight with a this or that kind of person?

I look at my plate armor which I have cursed so many in the past 4 + years of wearing and wondered.. We actually discussed on an alt with guildies how to "harm" someone wearing plate and others icly participated in the discussion with the use of someone else who was incharacter as an example. I do not consider it "easy" to penetrate a plate armor. How ever.. I do see the edges, I do show some skin, make it clear where the armor is vounerable should I be in a fight with my platewearing characters. Even my rogue shows actually where there are spots to harm/aim for by actually showing skin. As plate wont be "penetrated" easily one should for the sake of not remaining a "invounerable" character have some already set "weaknesses" in my eyes. I am very killable, be it mage, lock, rogue, hunter or what not.. Realism in the fights is hard, it is difficult. You wont see me bubble up though... If bound, prevented in other means to fight physically, throwing a spell would be hard as well, hands should be free to be used. Praying, calling on power, to protect your self but not harm others how ever, still to some low degree could be possible. I might try to shield my self but actually bubbeling for me ruins the "fun". I am not sure what else to contribute with other then that discussing a bit as one goes a long can be nice. Still it ruins some of the suprise.. *Whisper* I intend to jump out of this bush now and attack you, how will you respond.. --> I would surely have replied something in the lines of.. "Nice of you to ask but this ruined all my excitement on wheter you would or not would jump me when I walk by the bushes..

Still if someone intends to do something that might give long term damage or changes, or total damage a talk is nice. Limbs, soulstealing, turning /which gives a guild issue in some cases, death and other thinkable means. There is for me no set "this person will not be able to beat me in a fight" before the battle has begun unless the person despite class it entirely naked.. As we do not really have God like Ninja's on the server to my knowledge.

I do see the edges, I do show some skin, make it clear where the armor is vounerable should I be in a fight with my platewearing characters

First thing first... Why would you even want to wear braplates into real battle? Forget the battle... Just, why? xD

I used to play a full-metal warrior with the armor covering 110% of the body because, hey, it's all or nothing. You leave one spot open, you might aswell wear no armor at all and go Leonidas on whoever wishes to mess with you.

So yes, the frontal assault will probably be mine in any situation; That does not mean I cannot be confronted otherwise, however. For instance, I have next to no way of knowing what's happening behind me because of the helmet; Knocking me down will pose a problem, aswell as magic in almost any form (Again, I could just cover behind my shield from your fireballs if you come outta nowhere and challange my authority).

All in all I can say about myself:
Pros: Nearly indestructible physical protection & enormous strength.
Cons: Low agility, high weight, limited hearing & eyesight.

Marrenus wrote:you might aswell wear no armor at all and go Leonidas on whoever wishes to mess with you.

Oh. You've met my Primal?

PS: Loved your edit reason. XD