[open debate] Why Random World pvp died

This is a topic i've been considering deeply of late and musing on while Writing the w-pvp guide. Its a matter that deeply effects Defias and of course is of vital importance to our image and reputation among other RP realms.

I shall try to break down my own views as best i can in some logical order but i fear i may start rambling. Please feel free to debate and discuss any points i make or come up with your own, counter arguments welcome.

So where to begin? Well the server start is a good place. Back at DB's launch in september 2005, We had Daily clashes between tarren mill and Southshore, Huge running battles between Astrannar and splinter tree post. Whereas compared to today, we dont see these things... (partly due to cataclysm zone changes) perhaps becuase of "it got old and boring", or maybe due to the development of other factors. There is also random town attacks to consider, quite often a guild would show up one night and attack a town hoping for a response from the opposite faction, the other faction would show up and either disperse the invader or be dispersed themselves.

These Days we only ever have strict organised events heavy on plots and IC territorial aquisition, and many people arent happy with the flow and regularity these occur with, much the same can be said about rules and regulations as well as how they are enforced or handled. Though this may sound degrading to organised events, its not meant to be, in "the old days" we had both unplanned and organised events with daily frequency. what i want to know is why one has remained and become slightly disliked, while the other is gone and people miss it.

My Opinion on the key reasons from the switch of ... lets call it "old shcool" to simply having "organised" W-pvp is as follows:

A) Territorial Claims - Its my opinion that people have become so ooc'ly defensive of their guild/organisations/faction claims, they wont suffer any challenge to them, be they intended as patrols, raids or skirmishes with no land aquisition in mind or otherwise. For example, if Faction 'A' Attacks a town belonging to Faction 'B' without warning, Faction 'B' will more often than not scream "ooc". This "its OOC because we dont like it" brand has been getting more and more regular, what you have to remember is i suppose is that you cant always be the winner. The Opposite Faction (whether horde or alliance) is not there soley to provide you with glory, you have to yield in equel measure too.

B) End of the PvP flag - in the beginning, it was Normal for guilds to have a rule in force which required all its members to remain constantly pvp flagged, This meant no hiding behind a magical blue shield. Becuase of OOC'er gankers, unwanted deaths/corpse runs and once again the "i didnt like it thus it was ooc" brand, people slowly but surely ditched these common rules. Infact, its hard to traverse most city's on both factions and see a single IC player who is pvp flagged... (with the exception of the orcs of the red blade, i salute you for keeping it). On Many Occasions i have seen, or been part of city raids and witnessed players -ignoring- the invaders, remaining in blue shield and ignoring the attackers as if they wasnt there... Wonderful Ethos, which brings me back to the "i dont like it thus its OOC" point again.

C)Relative strength - This one erks me in particular. Simply becuase you outnumber your enemy, doesnt mean you should send a full 40 man raid to fight 10 people. It is More than possible, likely, acceptable and admirable as a PLAYER to go easy on your enemy and give them a chance when their on the ropes. As i've Said before, the opposite faction are your roleplaying equels and comrads, they are not their simply for you to "zerg" and derive "glory" from.

D) Ic or OOC? - simply becuase the enemy is attacking your factions zones or towns, doesnt mean he's conquering, maybe he's burning and pillaging, or just raiding. Let the infinately possible In roleplay rule supreme, not the Limitied impossible. Whats more, your enemy may just be raiding for a laugh, and some way to kill time. Why not Simply fight back, and enjoy the challenge? theres nothing wrong per say with being ooc, and theres nothing saintly divine about being IC. What matters is that Defias doesnt become a Realm of rigid, IC only, pre-planned, pre-destined events.

E) Why complain? - why not enjoy random PvP for what it can be, an experience to enjoy. To hell with gear, or timing, or location. This is World of WARcraft. Dont Log alts, whisper your assailant and throw the "ooc" brand, Embrace your inner Defias brotherhood comunity spirit, get some friends and bash their skull in like the God of war You are.

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So, thats my two cents on the matter... the reason for the gradual downfall of Random world pvp is Players on BOTH factions with only Territorial Aquisition, Selfish glory mongering, a Self serving whiney Ethos and an always ready blue shield exist. Swat them like the bugs they are.

I just gave myself a personal rule. PvP flag on at all times, on all characters. Come Gankers, campers, IC or OOC i shall enjoy it and hope Defias will Thrive as the Mekka of Random World-RP-PvP that it is.

I would love to be in random raids on Alliance settlements and it is a longer term aim of mine to rally x-guild teams to do so.

I always PvP IC and remain flagged, it isn't hard to do so - you just see the alliance as an enemy to be eradicated, simple. And should I be in a town attacked by Alliance, I sure as hell try and find them to repel the invaders no matter what level character I am playing as it all aids 'my people'. To me, it is part of the immersion in the game (else I would be on a pure rp server).

Perhaps a return to simpler rules; rp/pvp guilds should remain flagged and see all attacks they do, or are subject to, as IC. So, if one of the guild reports they were attacked by an Alliance (identifying the attackers guild by tabard of course) then a counter attack is made - no matter if the attackers are rp'ers or not. We need to accomodate the non rp players in our rp as much as we can, they are part of our world whether we like it or not.

The real reason random WPvP died is simply because you have way more zones now than you had in 1.0, hence it was easier back then to barge into players of the opposite faction. The spread was simply way thinner.

Another reason that springs to mind is that a lot people do not need to travel at all to do battlegrounds and dungeons -- so they can relax in Orgrimmar or Stormwind without ever bumping into anyone from the opposite faction.

EDIT: In retrospect, what you seem to be discussing seems to be more of random RP-PvP than W-PvP. Or that's just how I perceive the difference in terms: one is more of PvP with a RP reason, the other is just some harmless fun without needing to have effect on RP.

Krunch wrote:The real reason random WPvP died is simply because you have way more zones now than you had in 1.0, hence it was easier back then to barge into players of the opposite faction. The spread was simply way thinner.

Another reason that springs to mind is that a lot people do not need to travel at all to do battlegrounds and dungeons -- so they can relax in Orgrimmar or Stormwind without ever bumping into anyone from the opposite faction.

EDIT: In retrospect, what you seem to be discussing seems to be more of random RP-PvP than W-PvP. Or that's just how I perceive the difference in terms: one is more of PvP with a RP reason, the other is just some harmless fun without needing to have effect on RP.

I meant both kinds, in the world.

i'm going to throw my two cents in to the pot.
i've seen alot of thats not my,x,y,z so i ignor it. and i have seen alot of role play. mainly on the lower levels. so when the other faction raiders come along there very little chance of doing any thing, other then rezing and dieing.
but it does annoy me to no end that an to a simaler geared/level player, sits there drinking away with his other fraction buddy who happly butching bar staff.

to
A) i have to agree there with you. it does seem more contracted out land disputies.
B) the pvp flag. i think thats more of the chance of i forget to keep it on story. to we allow lowbies to keep it of to advid ganking. but i have a stronger feeling it more a case of we want a massive advantage before we attack. does,x out gear me, can i kill y. if not i wont try.
C)me i just say in /g about x attacking if i know there a few pvp mind people on. i'm with ya on that point as well. out numbering good and all but not as fun as a changlle. to make seem worth while.
D)have to give that one more thinking
e) i ownly complain if x kills me out of the blue, and i cant do any thing about it. (lvl 85's hitting on lowbies) and repeat it for the tenth time. if ya in range or green i dont care as long as there some form of rules. ie let the other heal up fully.

It's a trap.

Enter Alliance town, safe in the knowledge that you're better than them > Whole event is mocked by level 85 guards who hit for over 50k damage, non-crit.

Morinth wrote:It's a trap.

Enter Alliance town, safe in the knowledge that you're better than them > Whole event is mocked by level 85 guards who hit for over 50k damage, non-crit.

SHHHHH!!

**raises ring hand**

...it doesnt tell the alliance or it gets a backhand again!

krogon wrote:

Morinth wrote:It's a trap.

Enter Alliance town, safe in the knowledge that you're better than them > Whole event is mocked by level 85 guards who hit for over 50k damage, non-crit.

SHHHHH!!

**raises ring hand**

...it doesnt tell the alliance or it gets a backhand again!

*leet pirate skills steal those rings!*

Oh, I see. Yes sir! *salutes*

Spoiler:

Something that I have been pondering besides some things mentioned in the thread.

Most of the people who travel around do that with flying mount as soon as it's possible to get one, since you can travel fast, without fees and also away from other players & mobs. If you want to encage pvp combat with person on flying mount, it usually means the one being attacked is afk. I remember the battle in Vile Reef during vanilla or TBC, where everyone was diving. Maybe we should have air fight now?

When TBC came out, in Outland there was not many areas or towns that some RP guild would have treated actively as "their area", even when every high level seemed to remain in Outland. Same happened again when WotL was introduced. If you don't count the i-feel-imba DKs, noone bothered to go old vanilla places.

Gearlevel difference has changed a lot from vanilla times. So I understand peoples frustration when someone in top pvp gear handpicks the weakest looking characters to camp and hunt down for free HKs or fun crits. Was it IC or OOC, but when you don't have a slightest change to fight back, stuff might feel bit pointless so it's easier to take safety routes, hide behind blue shield and so on.

Heh. Just got ganked by a level 85 Dwarf Huntard on my level 28 Troll Druid. Looks like W-PvP ain't dead after all!

Morinth wrote:Heh. Just got ganked by a level 85 Dwarf Huntard on my level 28 Troll Druid. Looks like W-PvP ain't dead after all!

one on one it will always be around, i meant large grouo--

...nevermind. i hope it hurt! ;D

krogon wrote:

Morinth wrote:Heh. Just got ganked by a level 85 Dwarf Huntard on my level 28 Troll Druid. Looks like W-PvP ain't dead after all!

one on one it will always be around, i meant large grouo--

...nevermind. i hope it hurt! ;D

You love me really! Which is why I have ordered my crew to protect your undead arses at the Silverpine pvp thing.

Morinth wrote:

krogon wrote:

Morinth wrote:Heh. Just got ganked by a level 85 Dwarf Huntard on my level 28 Troll Druid. Looks like W-PvP ain't dead after all!

one on one it will always be around, i meant large grouo--

...nevermind. i hope it hurt! ;D

You love me really! Which is why I have ordered my crew to protect your undead arses at the Silverpine pvp thing.

It is beginning to annoy me how everyone but the undead seem to have been properly briefed on this. curious. anyhow /shoo

I blueshield as much as possible for several reasons.

1: OOC gankers
2: Do I want my character to get hurt? Otherwise we might as well start god emoting without any communication
3: Sometimes I just don't want to get an interesting story getting interrupted by the horde.

To elaborate a little..

1 doesn't needs to be elaborated I guess.
2 well, contact me if the horde wish to attempt to harm me or what ever.
3 that's just what I prefer.

Conclusion: I want my rp-pvp to be organised. I don't think it's a matter of immersion. I think that - just like when I RP with the alliance in terms of harming eachother or interfearing with stories/plots - it should be all OOC communicated.

When I can't blueshield then I indeed tend to not take it too much ICly, unless it is indeed discussed / organised. I will fight back though!

Edit: I also am aware that this is an Rp-PvP server and not a regular RP server, but I s'pose that doesn't justify the out of the blue coming horde's that kill you all of a sudden without OOC communication. I'm also on DB 'cause it's rp simply is best =D So no, don't tell me to transfer to a regular rp server.

A) Territorial Claims - Its my opinion that people have become so ooc'ly defensive of their guild/organisations/faction claims, they wont suffer any challenge to them, be they intended as patrols, raids or skirmishes with no land aquisition in mind or otherwise. For example, if Faction 'A' Attacks a town belonging to Faction 'B' without warning, Faction 'B' will more often than not scream "ooc". This "its OOC because we dont like it" brand has been getting more and more regular, what you have to remember is i suppose is that you cant always be the winner. The Opposite Faction (whether horde or alliance) is not there soley to provide you with glory, you have to yield in equel measure too.

I must admit I concur with this Krogon. I myself, and I know others too, feel the bitter sting regarding territory. I think at times you as the player needs to take your head out of your character's arse and think OOCly postively, and get your head around the situation, instead of only resorting to OOC during negative times i.e loss.

I however do not mind ICly contested zones. It brings realism, PvP, good relations and fun between the two factions. Differences be that a degree of mutual respect needs to be upheld so that either side only feels the above and not the feeling of being done over unfairly. Perhaps you need to always maintain certain terrorities and only leave a few open as contested, open for both sides to struggle over? - Note that in modern times, by decree of Blizzard, actual towns and settlements can't be fairly fought over so places that do not spawn guards can be used.

Finally, I feel that OOC communication be it RealID or MSN or even relogging, -needs- to be upheld and I'm not talking about the occasional goad after a battle, or an arguement afterwards. I'm talking about a decent, honourable and above all -friendly- means of planning at the very least, minor rules. For example the places to be fought over, the places that are out of bounds or the rules of combat. No CC to allow regrouping, no in combat ressing etc.

B) End of the PvP flag - in the beginning, it was Normal for guilds to have a rule in force which required all its members to remain constantly pvp flagged, This meant no hiding behind a magical blue shield. Becuase of OOC'er gankers, unwanted deaths/corpse runs and once again the "i didnt like it thus it was ooc" brand, people slowly but surely ditched these common rules. Infact, its hard to traverse most city's on both factions and see a single IC player who is pvp flagged... (with the exception of the orcs of the red blade, i salute you for keeping it). On Many Occasions i have seen, or been part of city raids and witnessed players -ignoring- the invaders, remaining in blue shield and ignoring the attackers as if they wasnt there... Wonderful Ethos, which brings me back to the "i dont like it thus its OOC" point again.

I both agree and disagree with this. Yes, the magical blue shield as you put it, is retarded at the best of times. It shouldn't be used when there is quite the possibility of being attacked in the open, for example...Deep in the forest of Elwynn. However that doesn't mean that you need to participate or be flagged during a raid upon a major city. Reasons being that such raids are, no matter what people say, always OOC because ICly you would be crushed even with a 40 man raid thus you do not need to react ICly either and can choose not to join in the mindless OOC PvP. This isn't a 'I don't like it thus it's OOC' situation because it's not a matter of not liking it, it's a matter of it not logically being able to happen.

Say I did join in ICly to a 'IC' raid upon Stormwind and you decided and succeeded to kill Varian Wrynn, would that be IC aswell? Or does your 'IC' raid limit itself to owning the Cathedral for half an hour or two, because the Trade District (Where you should be, to pillage and destroy trade), has too many raid geared players or arena geared PvPers for your liking?- No. Keep the RP-PvP outside where by all means the blue flagged is mostly taken down anyway.

C)Relative strength - This one erks me in particular. Simply becuase you outnumber your enemy, doesnt mean you should send a full 40 man raid to fight 10 people. It is More than possible, likely, acceptable and admirable as a PLAYER to go easy on your enemy and give them a chance when their on the ropes. As i've Said before, the opposite faction are your roleplaying equels and comrads, they are not their simply for you to "zerg" and derive "glory" from.

I agree. Pity it's so hard to put into practice.

D) Ic or OOC? - simply becuase the enemy is attacking your factions zones or towns, doesnt mean he's conquering, maybe he's burning and pillaging, or just raiding. Let the infinately possible In roleplay rule supreme, not the Limitied impossible. Whats more, your enemy may just be raiding for a laugh, and some way to kill time. Why not Simply fight back, and enjoy the challenge? theres nothing wrong per say with being ooc, and theres nothing saintly divine about being IC. What matters is that Defias doesnt become a Realm of rigid, IC only, pre-planned, pre-destined events.

I also agree, no issue there. I do enjoy the fight, simply for the fight, whether it's to be taken ICly or not.

E) Why complain? - why not enjoy random PvP for what it can be, an experience to enjoy. To hell with gear, or timing, or location. This is World of WARcraft. Dont Log alts, whisper your assailant and throw the "ooc" brand, Embrace your inner Defias brotherhood comunity spirit, get some friends and bash their skull in like the God of war You are.

Again I agree and I speak for all of Arathor when I scream.

AH-HOOM!

i have no quarms with blue shielding in city's. people can View a raid attacking a city as they wish... (though throughout history it has been known for small bands to run in, run out, and burn alot of stuff in the middle). what annoys me is the deliberate -ignoring- of it, then complaining and udbbing it ooc as -they- dont like it.

Its a case of Either move to a different spot, or allow the 'radiers' to enjoy their possible rp, or fun. the negativity worry's me.

Well Krogon organise it with the opposite faction and voila I s'pose =D

Your first point contradicts the latter.

You have no qualms how people view raids on cities, but it annoys you when they're ignored or dubbed OOC?- Well if you have no qualms, then there should be no issue with people ignoring it as OOC, when it most likely is 'logically', not when they 'don't like it', but because it's illogical.

Even if the negativity is the problem it shouldn't be assumed that others need to put up with a random raid, especially when the attackers think themselves IC.

Helsythe wrote:Well Krogon organise it with the opposite faction and voila I s'pose =D

... please tell me you are joking.

we are talking about random world pvp, not pre-planned. durr.

I wouldn't say random WPvP is dead tbh. When we were heading to Arathi we had quite lovely "random" WPvP with both SGE and Ootrb. No drama, no nothing. Just good, clean fun WPvP. I think what is lacking in the community is the light-heartedness of the past, where people would shrug their shoulders and see it as fun, rather then a disturbance. Might just be how I view it but yeah, my five coppers right there.

In the first few weeks on DB, I took w-pvp IC. I accidentally'd a Winterblade patrol in Ashenvale when I was 20 something and made sure to stay away from there. But a few raids on Silvermoon later, I just got tired of being camped and teabagged and really don't feel like I want to spend time regarding every attack as IC. I'm also tired of not finding drama after pvp a surprise. I think a general "suck it up now and pay them back later" attitude would be good.

Am not joking Krogon. The reason why people tend to ignore "random world pvp" is because they dont want their character end up wounded out of the blue, unless it was discussed before hand so that said victim can agree/decline.

I think it works like emote fighting a little.

Helsythe whispers to heretic: "Hey mind if we try to capture you? Your char would be tortured however"

I personally, and guess more people, would prefer this to happen with w-pvp rp as well.

My reply wonderfully compacted in 8 minutes; the reply of every PvP lover who's been around from the very beginning I'd imagine. Considering that this was made in 2008, you can add the additional reasons that came after (LFG and automated teleport to the designated dungeon for example) and you have an almost depressing result.

Saihna Trollbane wrote:I wouldn't say random WPvP is dead tbh. When we were heading to Arathi we had quite lovely "random" WPvP with both SGE and Ootrb. No drama, no nothing. Just good, clean fun WPvP. I think what is lacking in the community is the light-heartedness of the past, where people would shrug their shoulders and see it as fun, rather then a disturbance. Might just be how I view it but yeah, my five coppers right there.

you pre-organised those.

and yeah, light heartedness would be welcome if it returned.

and Helsythe, nobody said you had to RP being wounded after every little clash.

Bad losers. They leave because they can't handle a loss because it feels so unfair.


They forget that RP wpvp is not for the sake of pvp, but for the sake of roleplay - to have fun, winning or not.

That's what I feel to be a big reason atleast.