Elves and ages.

So, what I do when I deside "So, I should go to bed". But realise that this thought in my mind has been nagging me for hours!

The Relative Age of Elves in World of Warcraft.

So, this came up earlier today in the Red Blades OOC channel. The topic of Elves and their respective ages. Due to someone pointing out in a questioning manner why so many elven role players write ”20 human years old” or along the line of that.
Mostly the question that was discussed was how elves age and grow.
Do you think that their physical maturity is slower than say that of a human? Or their mental? Considering that in stated sources they aren't considered as adults until they're 60(110) respectively 110(300).

Is that high age for the respect of an adult (even tho everyone who reaches eighteen know that just because you legally count as an adult you're not treated any different than someone who's seventeen, you just get more responsibilities). Stemming from that yes, they do take that long to physically grow up, or emotionally. As in, they need the time biologically to reach a point where others will trust them.
In my opinion I think that elves age pretty much at the same speed as humans until they're physically 15~17 somewhere. Then it slows down, not just as a full switch from 150km/h to 15/km an hour, but over say a decade it slows down. Mentally they develop a small bit slower, but I wouldn't say much. Lore wise speaking they're generally depicted as smarter/wiser than humans (this can again stem from them being older and having time to learn more). For the most part I still think that even mentally they mostly age the same as any human would, and that it doesn't slow down.

What I do think here is that the reason the ages when they count as adults is that high is because it's then that the older people in their society start taking them seriously. I think most people at the age of twenty, or that have been that age, know how it can feel talking with someone who's fifty years old (thus, thirty years older). Now imagine that the person you spoke with was two hundred years old (thus, one hundred and eighty years older).
Yeah, unless what you had to say made terribly much sense and really was a thinker he or she'd look at you, smile and just nod. Then tell it as a cute story to his friends over a cup of coffee.
That is why I think that they aren't considered being adults until they've lived a bit over half a century/a bit over a century. When you've got that time under your belt even someone who've lived two or three century's will know that you've had time to experience some things and just aren't talking out of your arse.
I'd be surprised if many elves that reaches their adulthood haven't had one or a few jobs by then, if they're not studying to the some equivalent of a Ph.D. thing.
I also think that one reason it might be so high is that the older elves more or less expect/want the younger to take some decades and be strange, crazy and just try out things they themselves know already doesn't work, but have realised everyone must try on their own. Thus they expect those that haven't reached adulthood to act strange, and frankly as kids.

I am also of the opinion that a 30 or 40 year old elf can pull stuff that say a 15 year old human could pull and get away with a slap on the wrist. It'd quite likely carry rather severe things as while they're still counted as children they are of an age when they should start looking to grow up and start earning the respect of their peers (even it they won't have it for some decades yet).

What are your thoughts on the subject? Does my rambling thoughts sound somewhat reasonable or like poppycock? Or am I just an idiot who shouldn't write very short argumentative essay's at night?

Reasonable thoughts indeed, the growing up part could be elaborated more on in my eyes, and I also do think there is plenty of info about in out there on the great webs.. That however people rping elves above the age of 500-1000-10 000 years old.. often seem to not follow your example in my experience that is ;

"What I do think here is that the reason the ages when they count as adults is that high is because it's then that the older people in their society start taking them seriously. I think most people at the age of twenty, or that have been that age, know how it can feel talking with someone who's fifty years old (thus, thirty years older). Now imagine that the person you spoke with was two hundred years old (thus, one hundred and eighty years older). Yeah, unless what you had to say made terribly much sense and really was a thinker he or she'd look at you, smile and just nod. Then tell it as a cute story to his friends over a cup of coffee."

Thing is.. People seem to forget "their age when rping".. Some act as they would their own age. Rping a very very old being, doesnt exclude the fact that even old people can be silly, joke about, act childish.. But how many does actually rp "their ic age"...

Now that is a good debate:D

There's physical age, mental age and social age.

I'd say physically elves age more or less at the same rate as humans at first, before slowing down at somewhere around 20-30 years and then staying at that "age" for next who knows how many hundred/thousand years.

Mentally elves age like humans would. In other words, they reach adulthood at certain age and then remain there for the rest of their lives, accumulating experience, wisdom, etc, until old age really starts to slowly kick in and dementia and such start to kick in.

Socially elves age at a much slower rate than humans. As pointed out, an elf at the age of 30 would probably still be considered a child by the "adults".

The lifespans presented in, for example, wowwiki show complete lack of understanding of biology and of how aging works.
Well, that, or they're social ages.

Seeing as I'm at work, I can't expand too much, but I'll make a note down here too.

Don't forget the age in relation to the loss of immortality. Elves used to be immortal, so ages of "8.000" are not exactly far-fetched, since the person in question could have that age before the loss of immortality, which only adds a finite point to their lives, it doesn't "remove" their past age.

It's very interesting to also take into consideration the varying views over "how much -more- will an elf live, after the loss of immortality?"

You'll have to find answers to each of those cases individually:
Elf#1, born 8.000 before the loss of immortality. What's the approximate age he'll die?
Elf#2, born after the loss of immortality. What's the approximate age he'll die?

If you give an (extended, as they might no longer be immortal, but they are still elves) lifespan of 800 years, Elf#1 would be perfectly viable to rp as "8.500 years old", but Elf#2 would be dead and gone after 800.

After all, age "norms" in all social contexts don't really take into consideration such altering factors as loss of immortality. In essence, it only means "how many years you have lived", and someone born 5000 years before losing immortality, will still be 5000 years old even if elves now die at 800. Their aging process doesn't apply retroactively or anything, doesn't make sense.

Among us blood elves, the rule of thumb we've gone with so far is social maturity at age of ~80, and maximum lifespans approaching ~400.

Shandris Feathermoon wanted to join the WotA when she was only 16 years old, but Tyrande didn't let her because she said she was too young. So I think that night elves mature physically at the same time, but they are not socially accepted as adults until whatever age.

And on a side note, I also don't like the "20 in human years" thing because a twenty year old human is NOTHING like a 300 year old night elf. Technically, all night elves are at the same "physical stage" since they stopped aging (or does it slow down? I remember the WoW encylopedia saying it just stopped after a certain time iirc), so using "x in human years" to show how "old" they look, as in wrinkles etc., is redundant and also using it to show mental maturity is also redundant imo.

Saevir wrote:Among us blood elves, the rule of thumb we've gone with so far is social maturity at age of ~80, and maximum lifespans approaching ~400.

And if you need to nitpick, most agree on that early years are equal when it comes to aging and changes somewhere around 20.

Shaelyssa wrote:And on a side note, I also don't like the "20 in human years" thing because a twenty year old human is NOTHING like a 300 year old night elf. Technically, all night elves are at the same "physical stage" since they stopped aging (or does it slow down? I remember the WoW encylopedia saying it just stopped after a certain time iirc), so using "x in human years" to show how "old" they look, as in wrinkles etc., is redundant and also using it to show mental maturity is also redundant imo.

The point in stating human years is that people not familiar with the elven life-cycle can still get an idea of how old the character looks, by simply being able to compare it to the appearance of a human at a certain age. I personally doubt that as many people would be able to get the intended impression by simply reading some like "X looks 276 years old". It might not work as well for night elves, but given how physically similar high/blood elves and humans look in general, it seems fitting there.

Saevir wrote:
The point in stating human years is that people not familiar with the elven life-cycle can still get an idea of how old the character looks, by simply being able to compare it to the appearance of a human at a certain age. I personally doubt that as many people would be able to get the intended impression by simply reading some like "X looks 276 years old". It might not work as well for night elves, but given how physically similar high/blood elves and humans look in general, it seems fitting there.

That's what I told to the orcsie who was wondering why people who RP elves state their age in human years in their RSP

Well, the whole point with elves is that they don't look anything like any number of years can predict.

That's where I find it kinda dumb to write "x looks 20 human years old" as that tells you absolutely nothing. One of my sisters old classmates who was around 30 could have told me she was 18 and I would have belived her. Not that she looked young, she just didn't look thirty without looking at her eyes.
It would be much better writing "Her looks reflect that of a human in her twenties". Writing a specific age and as a final thing "X is 20 human years" also make's it seem like it should reflect some form of maturity. While if you actually look at their society a recently socially accepted blood elft/Night elf that get's the "status" of adult would be much more mature and have a much greater sense of responsibility than your avarage twenty year old.
Most of the blood elves I've seen do this are generally those who also Roleplay their elves as if they are something like twenty human years. (Not all, but many of them do from what I have seen).
Also needs to take in reflection that in Azeroth most humans not from nobel families have most likely been working for atleast ten years when they hit 25.

And Mandui, that's just the kind of thing I am trying to discuss, since I don't really think a being that has existed for 80-100 in any way can actually look like a human that's lived for twenty. They might somewhat resemble, but really age shows in ways more than wrinkles and grey hair.

I don't recall any RSPs where a specific age was mentioned, unless I was just lucky enough to not see any of those. Most RSPs have the "He/she looks to be around his/her twenties in human years". Besides, stating a specific age, be it an elf or not, is rather silly, since the RSP descriptions are supposed to describe traits about a character which can't be seen due to the game mechanics but are still visible ICly. I doubt the age as a number is visible when looking at someone.

I know. Yet I still see far to many RSP's that describe behaviour traits, small background notes, and pet peeves.

Marogg/Helanie wrote:I know. Yet I still see far to many RSP's that describe behaviour traits, small background notes, and pet peeves.

Well, describing behavior traits is fine if you ask me, unless it's the description of things that one would be able to see only after spending a lot of time with said person. But simple traits, like a usually smiley face or a certain quirk like a perked eyebrow, which are visible after a second glance at the character, are fine.

That's not what I ment. But seen in depth behaviour descriptions on far to many flags. One of the reasons I stoped reading 9 out of 10 of them that are more than 10 lines long.

Yeah, I know those. Some people still don't understand what flagRSP or other RP addons are supposed to be there for and use them as a mini biography notebook :/

About the age on elves I do have a small note, there is information on the lifespan for the Sin'dorei, which changed after they got involved with the fel magic due to the loss of their sunwell.
This happened ... 4-5 years ago lorewise? So orginally all elves rp'ing are all still part of the "old" count on ages, wether or not it changed from being an adult down to 60 from 80, those who where 71 or so at the fall of Kael'thas did not belong in the section of adults, and I doubt they suddenly will be because they have changed their way of life in order to survive.

I think Belf lore is rather messed up in order to understand much, especially on the factors where one tries to understand things like ages. But I have always taken it into consideration that the elves we rp NOW are all still part of the high elves if we wish to look up information. If the story goes on, and lore skips to 60-80 years after all the happenings, THEN belf information will be more accurate.
Might be me thinking into it too much or still being confused on how things are exactly but it makes sense to me at least.

About rsp, I have always used elven years on Gallyndra it stated "127" and those knowing their game and lore should then also have known what her physcial age would have resembled.
I tend to put down behaviour descriptions into my addons, one might be longer then the other, but in the end one can grow tired of emoting every sentence how catlike for example my troll is, or how strong her bond with her tigress companion. So if it seems long I don't apologize.
I don't need to see traits that are unseen when you meet someone, nor do I want to know how you got a scar or anything of your background however.

But those are things who don't need to be discussed in here, let's keep it to the magnificent Sin'dorei and their ages ^^

Mandui wrote:Yeah, I know those. Some people still don't understand what flagRSP or other RP addons are supposed to be there for and use them as a mini biography notebook :/

That's how I use it, haven't found a rp notebook add on yet.

Hrm.. Female night elf mage villian, assaulting all the alliance city Mage and Warlock HQs in search of news about an artifact that'll make her immortal?, pacts with a demon? <Makes note>

Anywho, finding this discussion very interesting. question, H/belves are no longer immortal? or never have been?

Night elf lore suggests they were once immortal, but sacrificed this gift during their conflict with the demons of the Burning Legion. However, little lore exists to explain how they first gained immortality. Some tales hint that the night elves achieved some form of link between their spirits and the eternal world, but the details are not clear.[2] The early history of the night elves suggests their immortality was indirectly granted to them by the Titans via the Well of Eternity. The early night elves gathered around the Well and its energies infused them as they built their civilization.[3] With the destruction of the Well, their resistance to death was lost also.

Other stories credit Nozdormu, the Timeless Dragon Aspect of the bronze dragonflight who blessed the first World Tree, Nordrassil, with the gift. The connection between Nordrassil and immortality relies on the hint from the early myths that the Well of Eternity by itself only offered partial immortality while near it, while Nozdormu's blessing permeated any elves who where born among the first world tree's branches. The reasoning goes that the later world tree, Teldrassil lacked this blessing and that is why it would not allow the elves to regain their immortality from it. However, Nordrassil was also grown from the waters of the Well of Eternity and Teldrassil was not. Also, the promise of immortality associated with Teldrassil comes primarily from Fandral Staghelm and not from any divine beings.[4] Nozdormu, perhaps tellingly, withheld his blessing due to Fandral's actions during the war against the qiraji and so Teldrassil lacked another property of Nordrassil.[5] Thus, Fandral's promise has yet to come true.

I think high elves really lost the immortal part when they left Kalimdor. As seen above they can't give a clear answer on the Nigh Elves former immortality, so can't say when the High Elves lost theirs.
Maybe they accepted their mortality and went big on phoenixes, the whole new life rising form the ashes thing.