You gosh darn goody two shoes.

Bring out some hatred folks, I wanna see a frown!

Two long the realm has been nice, accepting Warlocks, Death Knights, (necromancers?) And Shadow priests like it was just another day. To rarely do I see someone go ape shit because a death knight is just that, a dead knight in black armor and casting necromantic spells and torturing his enemies.

Show some emotions folks, a bit of hate, some sadness.. And for goodness sake bring back the trolls to the forum! (just don't take it over a certain line where people quit the realm and forum.)

Sincerely, me.

Let's play that out, pretend for a moment some-one- decides to take it upon them self to be the arbitrator of morality and publicly denounces an individual.

Consider it from this perspective -

Bad guy = 1
Good guys = over 9000

What have you achieved? Bad guy essentially can no longer show it's face.

-1 realm pop

If there was more balance, yeah... But their isn't. I know, because I'm been recruiting said "Bad guys" (People inclined to use darker arts to achieve their goals)
And there are so few it's laughable.

Also where would you be standing? On the side of hating the bad people, or with the bad people being hated?

Because unless your on "My" side of the line, your just part of the problem.

(A little harsh, I know, but you did ask for some trolling, and this seems loaded enough to spark some hate, discuss )

I am quite positive the trolling have declined. Whether you like it or not on a personal stage, to be fair, toxicity does drive people away.

In terms of people being to "good" for "bad" people, I myself like the progress. I wouldn't say that they are "accepted", or liked, rather. As you know, one of my current characters is a Warlock out in the open. Sure, she have not been shot on the spot for being a Warlock, but does people treat her like anyone else? No. They treat her as something filthy, or evil, with some exceptions.

So far however, the general reaction is shunning and dislike, for the character have not done anything particular disgusting to provoke reaction.

Emotion is reacted with emotion. If someone roleplay their character out as evil prisoner torturing Death Knight, the Paladins are not going to like it, and react to it with emotion.

If my toon was draining the soul of dead bodies, you think the Paladins would be cool with it?

Keep also in mind that by the story of Warcraft, the War is just getting bloodier and bloodier. While the Darkcasters were indeed greatly shunned in years past, currently, I don't think the Alliance can afford shunning well-behaving darkcasters. Or if they can afford to shun, is up for personal stage for each character to chose.

Littlepip does have a point. It was odd when Flicky approached the Ministers (who are mainly priests/paladins) and all of them were indifferent. If I recall correctly, I've even seen some of those people announce just how much their characters hate warlocks.

As for the troll part:
too* long, not two or to
its* is the possessive
there* isn't
you're*

I just had to.

Aye, that came out as a surprise for me aswell. Would have thought for a "We do not want your kin here!" reactions, but it's all cool. They have had time to fix their attitudes and shun her double over when re-encounter!

Oh, she was shoot at one day, so someone already hates her! She survived it though.

Ah. That's the spirit!

Come to the disciples as a open infidel and i'm sure you'll recive a warm welcome.

On a pyre that is.

Littlepip wrote:And for goodness sake bring back the trolls to the forum! (just don't take it over a certain line where people quit the realm and forum.)

Sorry, I don't operate between those parameters.

My favourite subject.

Considering I haven't played in ages, my perception is a bit dated, but this was still a thing the last time I played. I think there are two things behind this which leads to the nonexistence of evil RP, and its denouncement:
1: Certain people that were well established in the community wanted to use their shadow magic, and argued that the Alliance would allow it.
2: Evil RP got replaced by event specific- or DM event villains. I.e, villains that were alts made for a specific event.

I've touched on this before. As Defias turned more guild-RP oriented, evil guilds had a harder time due to them being antagonistic in nature, and dependent on opposing factions for RP. With the guild-centric RP, it became impossible to actually keep evil-doer guilds interested, especially since other guilds had their own villains within their guilds (Not to mention, evil doer guilds were just a bunch of evil doer alts of people in other guilds). With that, you have a bunch of warlocks, shadow priests and death knights with no real way to engage other players. So sometime thereafter, people considered the shadow magic stuff pretty normal (which I believe was around the Siege of Orgrimmar days, where Garrosh is pretty outspoken on Alliance shadow magic users).

So this is more of an effect of antagonistic guilds losing their purpose and point. At best, you probably had a warlock get scorned for riding a demon horse, but that's pretty much it. In the latter days of DB, it seems people just weren't interested in RP that engaged with other guilds, unless it was an RP PvP event.

Zaraj wrote:Considering I haven't played in ages,

Or posted.. But never mind that, as the post is interesting and rather serious I will be serious as well.

One of the problems in this day and age is that people use the word "Evil", I will admit that I use it myself sometimes as well. However the way we use it is rather wrong, in fact we shouldn't use it to define our villain. A villain rarely see's himself as "evil" due to him simply having another perspective then the common people that he is fighting against. If the character does see himself as "evil" I would argue that you have probably done something wrong or taking the path of a more linear character which few people will be interested in.

A good villain is usually written with another perspective then others. For now I will make up an example, Say Martha, she was one of my first characters to become evil on Defias, got a bit of a bad name if I remember right.. She was horribly written, she turned evil because she wanted to serve some "evil" person because "evil."

Then as time passed let I made Littlepip, a good background, decent characteristics and what not. As time passed on her perspective of the world changed and she joined the Azure Flame because her mistress was there. Now she is in a position that some would view as "Evil" and I like to think that people are a little more interested in my character because of that.
For a better example look at Skarain or the Black Hand, or perhaps the Brotherhood from the Tiberium series.

Instead of aiming to create the biggest, baddest villain of them all with the word"Evil" written on his T-shirt, I suggest people just drop that idea into a well, then blow up said well followed by sealing it with some magical wards that would incinerate anyone two meters away from that well. A character whom becomes a villain by the passing time with emotions, ideas, hopes, dreams and a belief that the world needs change is far more compelling then having a big bad villain walking around with a demon.

I will leave one last thing here as a side note. I despise people who goes up against villains that refuses to loose because their character is suppose to be the good guy and good guys never loose. But what I despise even more is the people who goes to face against someone and refuses to have their character either killed, mortally wounded or the memory wiped when he is trying ti kill or mortally wound the character he is facing. Especially when that character is open to death. It makes everything really annoying, when everything is over and the villain has to let the character live because the other player doesn't want his character to die. It makes everyone unhappy, the villain has to break his character a little to do it usually and nothing is gained from it.

Don't go up against villains thinking yourself immortal, be open to death, be careful, think before you go up against the rumored powerhouse of a guild and for Gabe's sake.. NEVER lol dodge.

It's a very... Gah what's the word.

Utopian idea, all things being equal and fair and unbiased. I would -Love- If we all had this approach, but to often playing the role of antagonist I've had to compromise my character to allow for lol dodges. Which is why this time around I am going with a more subtle approach, to cause conflict through proxy ensures character survival while allowing the villainous RP to take place.

So even if the grand plan get's a lol dodge, I haven't had to break my character to accommodate it.

But if you go in hard and exposed, it's victory or death, or it's a pointless exercise, because you have exposed your true nature and now the flood gates are open, you are effectively dead, because everyone knows what your up to since X person escaped. (Because unwilling to allow character death)

Still, can't hate on them to much. I might feel very differently on the other side of that argument. Who wants to spend that much time and effort on a story just to have someone end it before you feel it's run it's course.

With the new "war" going on between the Azure Flame and.. Lets say everyone else because at this moment I find it easier to tell who are their enemies then allies. I believe the situation might come once in a while were people will lol dodge an has to be let go due to them being unwilling to have their character killed even if that is the only logical thing that should happen.

A word of warning, if you are planning to face of against the Azure Flame I highly suggest you ask yourself this. "Am I ready to face the consequences of my character possibly dying?" If the answer is no, then don't come after us. Because we ourselves is open to death. It is a rule in the guild to be prepared to die, taking upon a much more realistic path and challenging.

If your answer is yes however, come at us with all you got! I love a challenge and conflict is such a great way to push the character further and develop emotions. Just don't lol dodge, do that without a reason and you will get a red text saying..
Littlepip is ignoring you.

Of course I will try to reason first, but lol dodging is just something I don't like ever. It is one of those unpleasant things in the world that happens when someone thinks of their character as a super hero trapped in the matrix, dodging bullets like they traveled at the speed of a snowball thrown by a eight year old kid.

I love a challenge and conflict is such a great way to push the character further and develop emotions.

I would say don't count on it. Mortals are frail... All it takes is one bullet in the head and your world goes dark. Be prepared for a very anticlimactic end.

Death isn't glorious or romantic.

And professional killers are not interested in a dialogue or giving you a chance to fight back.

Which sounds good on paper, but for RP... Well it's not really very fun for the victim, but it's certainly realistic. I think you should settle on a middle ground in your mind where you get to do some stuff without the fear of being stuck in a situation where you need to lol dodge to avoid a 1 shot.

Because one shot is all it takes.

Allow my friend John Wick to demonstrate. (Also love this OST)

I wouldn't call it a War just yet. A Hunt would be more accurate. Skarain is also the only person being targeted, the name and identities of the others in the Flame being left in mystery. Majority does not even know the 'group of mages' name, not without doing some actual investigation.

In terms of actually facing anything, the best way to dodge a bullet is to not get in situations in where you are in the line of fire to begin with.

Going by realism, if you get yourself in a situation in where your character should die, your character is probably going to die, unless they have some ace in their sleeve. Avoiding going into dangerous situations as such will drastically improve the lifespan of any character.

In that I tip my head at Zackarus, who do roleplay his death knight in a very realistic way and does not roam the streets looking for trouble as some Death Knights have done in the past during Wotlk/cata. It is a very real way to play ones character. Less interesting perhaps, but they will live longer that way.

I would also say that Ignoring other players due to their emotes, even if it would qualify as "lol dodge" is not an official stance of the Azure Flame. We sort such out such by pausing and talking OOC, not by ignoring outright.

*moving to Zack's latest post*

Great soundtrack, indeed! Had it playing over again and again when I wrote this. Liking the first part more than the second though.

"There's no glory in war. It's just something they tell soldiers so they'll risk their lives." - Brunwulf Free-Winter, Windhelm, Skyrim

Wise words.

Aye, death is rarely glorious. It is quick and gruesome. Some exceptions may happen, but as a general rule no.

I enjoy conflict. Roleplaying thrives on it. I however advice to have an intelligent approach when conflict is at hand. Skarain currently bear the brand of a villain, due to the wanted posters. I am going to get the must fun out of planning on how to stay away from harms way, rather than actually getting into blows with anyone.

Because as it has been said, all it takes is one shot.

As a Death Knight roleplayer, I expect people to dislike me IC. My character expects to be disliked IC and in my experience, most people do instantly dislike him, I've spent months gaining tentative respect from most other RPers, which is a good and fulfilling RP experience for a DK RPer. But as it stands, the Alliance accepts Death Knights in their ranks and allows them stay from laws that would normally apply to them and to what they do. This has been the case since Thassarian came before the king to rejoin the Alliance, for the simple reason that the DKs were needed in the war against the Lich King. - Everyone knows this lore, every citizen knows that Death Knights (while they may not be seen often) are allies to the Alliance (and the Horde). They are still needed in wars, now, although they have sunken into the background as far as the lore goes. Killing them is still murder, just as killing a warlock is still murder. Warlocks, to some extent, seem to be used by the military too. I happen to be one of the people who would say fel magic and demon summoning is probably illegal, but it is equally possible to argue the exact opposite (within reason) going by what we see in novels and in-game.

Being a Warlock or Death Knight doesn't make you a bad guy, either. Death Knights returned to fight for the Alliance and the Horde, they are far from 'bad guys' (or they should be, why everyone plays them as a villain, I have no idea). Warlocks, equally, are just mages using forbidden magic. That doesn't make them evil, they might be evil, but they certainly don't need to be.

Finally, on the take of

Littlepip wrote:"And for goodness sake bring back the trolls to the forum!"

The Trolls on this forum drove many people away, and whilst I enjoy a passionate debate, that isn't a good thing at all. We are a community of like minded people, treating each other like shit doesn't make for a very nice community. I'd rather look back on RP (either positive or negative between the characters) as fun between friends than as a tense face-off against someone I hated OOC.
And as for ignoring people who loldodge, yes loldodging is annoying and often stupid. Yes, everyone should be open to the death of their characters, it is only a character after all and many of us generally have alts. However, /ignoring people who might be new to roleplay and therefore not want to die horrifically is a bad way to conduct our community. I used to be the kind of guy who would /ignore people for being "shit RPers" whatever that means, but I think that openness and willingness to teach people and accept other players boundaries is the best way forward. Should we be afraid of excluding people from our guilds who do not fit with our roleplay ethos? No, of course not. But what we shouldn't do is exclude them from the entire community, which is what /ignoring will generally do. Just because you don't like how someone conducts their character, doesn't mean you should ignore all RP involving them. By ignoring them you isolate yourself just as much as you isolate them. Try talking to them OOC instead. ^^

Adding to that atm Defias community is tiny enough that the mentality should be to take what you can get. Imagine the community as the panda bear race. They're almost extinct because they don't procreate. What if, to add to that, they did an IQ test on every one of their cubs and culled anyone below 100?

That's what Defias is atm, and that's what /ignoring "bad RPers" does. And as for the "bring back trolls" thing, let me speak seriously atm, as 100% I'm one of the people targetted when somebody says "DefiasRP trolls". It's an incredibly damning thing that this community has always done. I can not begin to count how many times I've been debating something calmly and without resorting to unconstructive namecalling and all that, perfectly good discussion about something. And then all of a sudden I'm told to "stop trolling", as if the act of disagreeing with you on something automatically means I'm just out to wind you up.

Many people from Defias know me by reputation as "that trolly guy", and I know many other people on Defias who share that reputation. Let me tell you this: 90% of the time, we don't give a shit about how wound up you are. That's not my objective. That's not the objectives of other people.

I'm not saying that nobody ever trolled anybody on DefiasRP, because obviously that has happened. I'm also not saying I'm not one of the people who have trolled somebody on here ever. Obviously I have. But this community has genuinely always been really really bad at determining who's being a troll and who's just genuinely disagreeing on a subject and wanting to discuss it. A lot of the latter group have been driven out of the community on the basis that people assume they're trolls. A lot of great bad guy RPers as well.

So there's the other side of that coin.

I do agree with Ixirar on the majority of this, I think trolling is the wrong term, because a good troll can be a laugh.

"If the Lich King's mount is invisible, why can I see it?"

It's when it turns disrespectful that problems arise and to quickly you might jump the gun and call for retribution when really you just need to take a step back, instead of charging forward foaming at the mouth.

And yes, ignoring is to my mind a last resort reserved for OOC griefers. BD RP should be stricken from the vernacular and replaced with inexperienced RP'er; To my mind that would promote a mentality of taking the time to teach and encourage X person, which is better all round for everyone.

Littlepip wrote:

Zaraj wrote:Considering I haven't played in ages,

One of the problems in this day and age is that people use the word "Evil", I will admit that I use it myself sometimes as well. However the way we use it is rather wrong, in fact we shouldn't use it to define our villain. A villain rarely see's himself as "evil" due to him simply having another perspective then the common people that he is fighting against...

This post, while fine and dandy, doesn't really provide substantial feedback when it comes to "bringing back baddies."

Because no matter whether you use the term "evil", "misguided", "fallen," "tragic" or whatever to describe how well developed your character is, the fact is that you play the role of an antagonist is the central thing. A well developed character backing up the antagonist may make it interesting in the long run, but in my experience, very few people want to play an antagonist for the sake of character development.

They play antagonists because they find RP based in conflict interesting. If they want to RP character development/casual RP, they'll just log onto whatever main they have in another guild, a character that is most often than not very similar to their own person.

Which becomes problematic with the idea that "accept the consequences of your actions" that has been preached for a very long time. Because this is partially why the antagonist RP declined, because there'd be no feasible way you could be a renegade guild and expect to survive in a world where everything is hostile to you. You are outnumbered to the thousands. You can't engage those you oppose because it'd be an impossible situation for you to survive. And since we're not playing a perma-death roleplaying simulator, and people being attached to their characters, it just means that conflict and antagonism comes to a halt.

I had a few times where we'd capture a paladin or a servant of the Light. If I solely adhered to the logic of the character that is Zaraj, I wouldn't have left them alive. Yet I did, with an IC reason such as "leave them a message", because if RP with antagonists in a situation where you're outnumbered and likely to die always lead to death, there wouldn't be a desire to RP that in the first place. I prefer to have that RP, even if it means that the logic of the universe is slightly bent. I'm fine with that, because RP is about fun, and not about fun at the expense of others.

This mentality, and what Ixirar said, is probably the reason why there aren't any pariahs walking around risking to get gangbanged. It has nothing to do with the quality of the RPers that assume the role of the outsiders. If you have a character based on conflict, but can't RP said conflict, are you surprised they're all gone, and that people have turned to guild RP only?

"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
- George Santayana.

Feeling a little tired right now so I will expand my comment later.

Well put, Skaraa. As a fair noob to rp, I have been standing on the outside looking in for a very long time.
Here is my perspective from a newbies point of view. Firstly, hell no, I don't want my char to die, I haven't played long, but it has taken forever to make friends! No way am I starting that shit over again. My char is my baby! We learned wow together! Would be so unfair to kill her before I even figured out /roll events work!
So I would def dodge
Also, you guys have done this so long I think you forget that not everyone knows the rules, or even the lore that well, its not like there is a quick easy way to learn it either, you all say "you'll pick it up as you go" but it ain't that easy. I know, taken me a year just to get this far. So do whisper....I know it breaks character, but for a struggling noob's sake, help em out.
I also watched the city burn during the cops and robbers escapades, it was Rp, and I wanted to join....but wasn't allowed to (I didn't fit the story line). It was disheartening. Then finally I was suddenly included....omg....was Rend talking to me? Oh wait, he had a knife at my throat.....not quite what I had in mind. So from being ignored to my chars life suddenly in danger, it was a bit much.
Basically I don't think you realize how intimidating your "be prepared to die" version of Rp can be to new people. Or even the fact that many of your chars are not exactly open or friendly.
You say we need some antagonism ingame between guilds to keep things entertaining, and for the most part I do agree, Stormwind is just full of bloody paladins at the moment, and we need something to drive stories, but at the same time, don't be too hard on the heroes and dodgers, they just trying to learn.
Its also really hard to understand ooc and ic at first, I took everything to heart in the beginning. I got really upset when all I wanted to do was talk to someone, but instead they held me hostage. Why were they so mean? I'd never done anything to them. It sure put me off for a while, and I am sure I wasn't alone in that regard.
Then everyone left for AD and I decided to stay, and you know what? You guys got nicer, hehe. Only by finally making friends and chatting ooc have I learned to see the true depths of your characters. Now I get it, now I see it wasn't personal. Ty for the heads up guys *typed sarcastically*
Anyways, love your posts, fascinating and thought provoking, just remember not all rpers have read them
What will really drive Rp in Stormwind is each of you going out of your way to try teach us noobs, include us, help us feel wanted. I know we can be pain staking, insufferable, and down right annoying, but each one of them could be the next generation posting on this site.
Characters who lack depth are boring, is essentially what you are all saying, but they lack depth because their players are unsure how to add depth.
Just something to think about.

Welcome to the forum

Sky Bloodbath wrote:
Here is my perspective from a newbies point of view. Firstly, hell no, I don't want my char to die, I haven't played long, but it has taken forever to make friends! No way am I starting that shit over again. My char is my baby! We learned wow together! Would be so unfair to kill her before I even figured out /roll events work!
So I would def dodge
Also, you guys have done this so long I think you forget that not everyone knows the rules,

A point to make here is that the rules you're saying you don't know aren't official rules and are made up purely by whichever stuck up cunt is lecturing you on being a bad RPer. "Don't dodge", while one of Littlepip's ten commandments, is not a rule that you should follow if you don't like to. I've been RPing on WOW since week 1 of Defias Brotherhood back in 2005 and I don't adhere to that rule. If I do not feel like having my character harmed, I will dodge. There's no rule agains that. In fact, I'd counter with this rule: Don't engage combat without warning. If you engage combat against somebody without warning them OOCly beforehand you're imposing upon them a situation they may not be comfortable playing out. As such, if you do this and then say "Don't dodge all my attacks", you're essentially god emoting me. You're forcing me into a combat scenario that I don't want to take part in and then imposing rules that I can not dodge. Ie. you're saying I have to fight and I have to be damaged by your character.

If you want to engage combat with somebody, you should always make sure that you have a set of rules to resolve that combat (because Blizzard didn't provide any), or be willing to resort to the default conflict resolution method in WoW: PVP. I realise my opinion here is in the minority but PVP is the only conflict resolution that Blizzard put in the game and as such is the only one that can ever be argued to be a universal rule. Any notion of /e fights and /roll fight and complex DnD combat systems are unofficial and can't be made into a rule. As such, if Littlepip feels that /dodge is boring, then he can feel free to not /dodge and seek to only engage combat with people who do not /dodge. However, if he engages combat with me without checking first, he is implicitly saying that now I have to play by his rules, even if I don't want to.

So there you go. The only rules that can ever be universalized above the opinions of players are the official terms of use by Blizzard, which, in their entirety, are as follows:

Role-Playing

There are special rules on role-playing servers that help our players maintain an immersive role-playing environment. If you see another player ignoring these rules, please report them.

Our role-playing policies exist alongside our standard in-game policies. Violating these policies may lead to penalties on your account.

Name Violations

This category includes:

Non-medieval or non-fantasy names (for example: Slipnslide, Robotman, Technotron).
Names that reference well known people, characters, places, or icons (for example: Britneyspears, Austinpowers, Mcdonalds, Georgewashington, Newyork).
Names that consist of multiple words (for example: Inyourface, Welovebeef, Howareyou).
We will give a random name to characters that violate our RP naming policy. If your name also violates the standard naming policy, we will apply the appropriate penalty to your account.

So there you go. That's the entire RP server ruleset. If anybody ever tries to force anything else onto you, they're being twats and you can feel free to disregard them. They have no authority.

I'd have hard times by trying to roleplay a generic honorable orc or noble paladin. "A good guy". Being pure and always good-willing with clear motives of a saint really puts me off. Only problem is that if i'd go fully evil with my RP I would probably need to roleplay by myself! Grey zone is the best zone.

My characters so far ain't fully evil. My rogue is loyal to Horde but is also immoral and selfish at times, he has quite bad reputation to some and many wouldn't trust too much responsability on him (unless if it's not about stabbing bad people, thats what he can do). Towards Alliance he'd probably go all evil if just had a chance to.

My Goblin however joined the Horde only because he fucked up and got hunted by Venture Co. So needless to say loyality ain't his biggest focus. He's a loner that tries exploit others as much as possible for his own profit. So I guess he's kinda bad guy - to a point untill he becomes hated and I can't roleplay him because there's no-one to RP with! I enjoy plotting and i've had some fun times with using others to get him more power. In a sense of [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and general Goblin-style of course. Will see where his story will go..

Also, thanks for your input Sky! Was nice to actually read thoughts from a new person.

Being new here too, I relate to what Sky is saying.

This server isn't my main server, Kylora is basically an RP alt I made because a friend told me about his time here and I missed rping in WoW (I was on a german RP server in Wrath, but now playing on normal PvE due to friends). I like my character, and while I don't mind personal drama or injury and kidnapping and whatnot, I'm just not prepared to put in the time again to create and level and gear and mog a new one. It's not feasible for me. I haven't really roleplayed at all here yet, just been watching the going ons and reading the forums - and, again, I agree with Sky, it's all pretty intimidating when wanting to play (and thus, being prepared to not always be lawful and nice and harmless) means having to be ready to start your character over.

So yeah, if non-good RP has to mean that such extremes can be reached, it's hard for new players to get into that. Personally, I've always been content with the RPdrenaline coming from interpersonal drama and interjecting PvE enemies as the bad guys - I once played a scenario where my character got kidnapped by Vrykul and her brother had to follow clues to save her. No shunning of other players needed, but it was still exciting. It's of course not the same as playing against an 'intelligent' opponent, but it beats losing people from the server altogether.

Aaand back to the lurking corner.

You! Y U NO COME INSIDE?!

We spotted you outside the lamb, you should have come in