The Crimson Flame discussion thread.

[Cathee Norris]

In an attempt to be a better person and not derail the recruitment thread I took what was suggested in consideration and made this. I am not trying to flame, I and simply trying to point out a few things for you, in hopes that you take it into consideration and change, so that you can actually be considered a guild people will associate with. Here goes.

To all the flamers; You do not get to say the way people are supposed to RP in your own little RP-circle.

It really is not about being in an RP-circle or not. The thing that I believe annoy people is how you come a handful of guildies into Stormwind and cause havoc. You disregard the fact that Guards pass by you, and that Stormwind in fact has 200 000 inhabitants. Open fights like that is.. more or less impossible. In which case such behavior would most likely be considered metagaming. Now, of course, newcommers would not really know (as in people new to server or RP overall). But the Crimson Flame has been around for a while back and forth. You should know this already.

We will NOT attack innocents, living people UNLESS they decide to attack us. The problem we are always forced in emote-fights with you guys is because of your unquestionable ability to sniff us out like you could read our minds.

Not true either. One of my characters was shot at herself by you, not being DK, or warlock, or having forced emote-fights on you.

That is YOU attacking us, insulting us and forcing us to retaliate because you have a uncunning skill to read minds. "Oh my god, that is a crimson flame! GUUUAARRDS!".

It is not reading minds actually. Scarlets are banned in Stormwind, whether it is by lore or the SW Council I'm not gonna say (cause I'm not 100% sure). The Scarlet Crusade however, being part of the Guard Group "The Protectorate", has insignias on their tabards, where as you as CF walk around only with a tabard. Which means people -know- you are not allowed in Stormwind.




Now, with that said I think you need to take some details into consideration. Either don't wear a tabard for example, or assault a Scarlet Crusader and steal an insignia? It's not really hard to solve it. Anyway, wishing you good luck in sorting the details so you can become more effective with whatever your agendas might be.

[Guest]

It really is not about being in an RP-circle or not. The thing that I believe annoy people is how you come a handful of guildies into Stormwind and cause havoc. You disregard the fact that Guards pass by you, and that Stormwind in fact has 200 000 inhabitants. Open fights like that is.. more or less impossible. In which case such behavior would most likely be considered metagaming. Now, of course, newcommers would not really know (as in people new to server or RP overall). But the Crimson Flame has been around for a while back and forth. You should know this already.

Indeed the city has some 200.000 inhabitants lorewise. Except that the city is super duper small, hardly 500meter in diameter square in the actual game, wich makes sure every area is exposed all the time and guards patrol the streets everywhere. Every fight anywhere would become impossible according to this logic. Try playing a game like assassins creed to get that good feel of medieval times and how the cities were. Now add some more grimmy stuff to that.

Not true either. One of my characters was shot at herself by you, not being DK, or warlock, or having forced emote-fights on you.

You should have read the recruitment post. I covered why we may have attacked innocents in the past. Otherwise we wouldn't attack you unless you attacked-us/defended-undead-or-warlocks/insulted-us-gravely-time-after-time.

It is not reading minds actually. Scarlets are banned in Stormwind, whether it is by lore or the SW Council I'm not gonna say (cause I'm not 100% sure). The Scarlet Crusade however, being part of the Guard Group "The Protectorate", has insignias on their tabards, where as you as CF walk around only with a tabard. Which means people -know- you are not allowed in Stormwind.

I'm talking about the rare oppertunities we are disguised for example. Plus when you engage our group with a ton of guards, why do you think there is fighting? Instead you could try to 1. talk to us, 2. ask us for assistance in your problems, 3. let us mind our own business and try not to kill-on-sight us when we stride around with 10+ crusaders and then complain your characters gets defeaten in her civilian gear, 4. RP with us in a manner that doesn't involve attacking us.

Now, with that said I think you need to take some details into consideration. Either don't wear a tabard for example, or assault a Scarlet Crusader and steal an insignia? It's not really hard to solve it. Anyway, wishing you good luck in sorting the details so you can become more effective with whatever your agendas might be.

We will not hide and those who choose to attack us, well, that is their own choice. And we're not on good terms with <The Scarlet Crusade> guild, so we try and avoid interaction with them. But that is another story. We choose to walk around in armour and display our colours proudly, for we are men of the Light.

[Cathee Norris]

Then you really have to understand why people flame you, if you are completely unwilling to change for the better good of not just yourselves, but the whole community.


Also the attack on my character was not in the past. It was only some days ago.

And letting your mind your own business? Like attacking the Cathedral while again, the City has a lot of City guards. Players can not be around 24/7, that is a fact. Hence people should take into consideration the NPC guards walking around. It really just makes sense. A handful of people attacking in a big city with guards and lots of inhabitants does not, make sense.


Anyway again, I'm merely trying to make you realize why people actually feel the need to flame you. If you want to take it into consideration or not is up to you. But if you don't, then you really have no reason to complain that people flame you or simply ignore you, as you've caused it yourself.

[Guest]

Then you really have to understand why people flame you, if you are completely unwilling to change for the better good of not just yourselves, but the whole community.

Also the attack on my character was not in the past. It was only some days ago.

And letting your mind your own business? Like attacking the Cathedral while again, the City has a lot of City guards. Players can not be around 24/7, that is a fact. Hence people should take into consideration the NPC guards walking around. It really just makes sense. A handful of people attacking in a big city with guards and lots of inhabitants does not, make sense.

Anyway again, I'm merely trying to make you realize why people actually feel the need to flame you. If you want to take it into consideration or not is up to you. But if you don't, then you really have no reason to complain that people flame you or simply ignore you, as you've caused it yourself.

Infact, we have changed alot. Plus, we're hardly ignored and flamed, except by a handful of people on some forums? I've yet to get the first complaint ingame.

You're speaking as if we bullrush everything and chop it all down without reason? What is your real problem here?

You don't think we should be allowed to RP, because, what, you don't like our RP or something? Well I've got bad news for you..

Indeed we attacked a person inside the Cathedral, in a swift fashion. We were defeat as expected however and we paid for it dearly because three of us are in a cell as we speak and much are wounded. It is an action we were forced into by blind rage and hatred and betrayal and for IC reasons.

We're all RPers here and we all have our likes and dislikes in RP. Do you see me attack your character for what I might think is flawed RP? Because I can think of a dozen reasons too, but I don't mind. We all have our ways of RP, what RP we like and what RP we dislike, but in the end of the day we all have to RP together. And no-one gets to decide how other people should RP.

[Cathee Norris]

As I've stated, I've tried to give you constructive criticism to work on, I find no reason why you should act all snide and rude about it.

But I've made my points, points I know a lot of people think the same about so, feel free to do what you want with it.

[Jayse]

Okay as long as this is kept to logical disscussion i'll take part if that's alright?

Now i've sat back and taken a good look of events and methods of operation various guilds are doing on the whole when I was assessing the creation of Stormwind Intelligence.

Now as this concerns the Crimson Flame i'll concentrate on what i've seen and how I view the city on a roleplay perspective.

Concept
The concept I love. A group of remaining Scarlet Crusaders and part of the larger Legion hell bent on destroying the unclean for the greater good of mankind.

Objectives
Posted in Stormwind to recruit and irradicate the 'unclean' walking among the streets. Deathknights, known warlocks/cultists and necromancers. Simple, effective and logical.

Now, from what i've observed and taking into account RP events there are a few things I don't quite understand with all due respect.

1. You ride around in the city, as mentioned before given the fact due to your IC actions the Crimson Flame were flagged as 'Kill on Sight' by the city guard.
The reason I find this hard to grasp is the way I view the city. Along with Sai I take things on a more overly conceptual level. The city ingame might be a few districts with a couple of houses and dramatically scalled down for the purposes of the game. But Lorewise and IC I see it as the city it's supposed to be (and this goes for the rest of the gameworld). It's huge! There's a large population and during the day there are ample people walking about the streets getting on with thier buisness. During the night it would be alot quieter as people retire to thier homes and the shroud of night provides cover for the more.. shady buisness as it were.

The city guard has been established in lore as being well staffed and funded, and more then capable of taking care of domestic threats. So.. given the fact the Crimson Flame have been effectivly outlawed to the point they are to be killed and attacked on sight. The guard theoretically would be all over your company quicker then you could attack the Cathedral. The city for you would be (as Duskwood is to the majority of Stormwinders and anyone not of a cultist nature, a killing zone).

2. The Tabard and Colours
Again I've only been Rping here since last August so i'm not fully upto speed with the Scarlet Crusade guild here. But.. as it stands and seems to be accepted in the majority, they are a guarding order and in light of not wanting thier members to be confused with a Crimson Flame they issued the visible insignia innitiative as you both wear the scarlet colours.

So.. if your wearing your tabard and you clearly wouldn't have an insignia (unless you took one/a number of them from a Scarlet Crusader in a RP plot) it's quite obvious you will be instantly flagged for attack. And given this fact the citizenry would also be wary of the Scarlet Crusade in the same manner.. as you both look the same it would sew a slight unease as to who is legit and who isnt, until the insignia is seen clearly.

Just a couple of points.

Now to pose the other side of the arguement there is also the case of: Well.. the city isn't ingame massive and there aren't guards there so when someone is a guard not patrolling in our view you can attack/kidnap/threaten/put yourselves on view.

I personally am of the 'minds-eye' mindset. I walk along the city/forest/area and I imagine it as it would be in the lore and 'if I were there'. A massive population and employing a large degree of logic and common sense when employing a method of action. Such as not doing anything against the law openly in the middle of the day when no doubt you would be spotted and henceforth.

Now I also understand as a RP community we simply cannot represent those numbers but it would just be nice if people could take this into account simply for the sake of action Vs consiquence.

Cheers!

(Ps: cut it a little shorter to avoid emptying my head into one post)

[Rhenchu]

I wouldn't haste my tongue and go with the flow Aesthetic, I know very little about the Crimson Flame, however after seeing your replies, you seem to have a loose end. And that goes for some others as well on the flamers side.
Though I would suggest you took it with a barrel of water, and looked upon this, as there is something to improve, and for the flamers, I suggest you blow out the fires already, and give them time to improve. I was once at a Council meeting in Stormwind, and saw that one of the members of the Crimson Flame didn't know that the path he was following (Presumed The Holy Light teached by Faol), which makes me wonder, if the rest of the Guild does so?

Only a hand to the better. I hope you will at least listen, and hopefully understand. And understanding goes for the Flamers as well. Who hasn't been fooling around before? Or broken the so called World of Warcraft lore?

No one should prejudge these either new or old Rp'ers. If they wish to Rp as the Scarlet Crusade let them? If you wish to Rp as the Queen or King of Arathor, or be the guards of a city, then we will let you do so. In the end it is all about having fun enjoying the money you spend every month to play the game.

Thank you for your understandings!

[Guest]

As I've stated, I've tried to give you constructive criticism to work on, I find no reason why you should act all snide and rude about it.

But I've made my points, points I know a lot of people think the same about so, feel free to do what you want with it.

Well excuse me if you've found me rude or snide, but I get the feeling you undergo an attempt to boycot our guild and perhaps give us a bad name. I've read your points, they are indeed opinions about how you think our guild could become more friendly, but I'm sad to inform you they don't really appeal to us. Thanks though.

Personally I'm recieving the feeling a little that you would rather not have us RP on your server.

I'm afraid you cannot like every guild and their concept and if we were in your face harassing you and beating down your characters all the time, I would understand. But we do as we do and if you are bothered OOCly by our IC actions for whatever reason, feel free to take it up with me what exactly has bothered you at what exact time, ingame, so I may settle it with you personally. IF we take the initiative to attack someone that isn't representing a guild/faction that has attacked us, we will discuss this OOCly, i.e. what we are allowed and what we can do and if we can even continue.

[Guest]

I wouldn't haste my tongue and go with the flow Aesthetic, I know very little about the Crimson Flame, however after seeing your replies, you seem to have a loose end. And that goes for some others as well on the flamers side.
Though I would suggest you took it with a barrel of water, and looked upon this, as there is something to improve, and for the flamers, I suggest you blow out the fires already, and give them time to improve. I was once at a Council meeting in Stormwind, and saw that one of the members of the Crimson Flame didn't know that the path he was following (Presumed The Holy Light teached by Faol), which makes me wonder, if the rest of the Guild does so?

Only a hand to the better. I hope you will at least listen, and hopefully understand. And understanding goes for the Flamers as well. Who hasn't been fooling around before? Or broken the so called World of Warcraft lore?

No one should prejudge these either new or old Rp'ers. If they wish to Rp as the Scarlet Crusade let them? If you wish to Rp as the Queen or King of Arathor, or be the guards of a city, then we will let you do so. In the end it is all about having fun enjoying the money you spend every month to play the game.

Thank you for your understandings!

Exactly! Well spoken. I might have been a little heated yes.

We have 1-3 new RPers who don't know that much, however we are teaching them as we go and we link them to the lore and our guild lore should they make mistakes. Feel free to help them out yourself. Our members are open and kind and willing to improve. If you see us make mistakes, give us a little whisper and help us on. If they act rude, you can take it up with a officer and they'll eb correct.

[Gahalla]

The way I've gathered it:

The main problems for the once being critical of the organisation is that from the outside perspective it seems like the flame goes and leaves as it pleases. That the guild makes Stormwind seem more dangerous than Darkshire or even Orgrimmar (for alliance members that is) by simply dispelling the illusion of safety everyone takes for granted in the human capital.
That the law more or less becomes pointless in your presence.

Simply... the attacks damages the suspension of belief and atmosphere in Stormwind.

On the other hand. The Crimson Flame does not want to be constrained by the presence of NPC guards who literally are incapable of anything but give directions and attack the random member of the horde that passes by. They want to be able to interact with the guards, the justice system and the occasional victims. To be able to actually be the terror on the unclean of Stormwind that they strive to be.

Perhaps a compromise can be worked out?

An example:
Crimson flame:
*If you want to interact with Stormwind, perhaps you could contact the guards when you enter the city and actually give them a chance to stop you before you attack them. Give them a heads up that it is an idea to send out members on patrol and perhaps stop you before the crime is done. Or perhaps they'll miss you today?

*In the off chance the guards cannot muster any force, perhaps you could settle for simply doing some recon in Stormwind? Perhaps mapping out future targets? "interviewing" people you are unsure about.

*Wear disguises when you get in and out of the city. Clothing that makes your membership in the flame uncertain. Sure, if you want to spread terror then use the tabards during a hit. Go into an empty house or a shop and change to the uniform. Rush out, attack, rush back, hide, change back to the disguise and then get out of the city without drawing attention to yourself. (Hiding your faces during attacks would be a good idea).
The guard probably outnumber you by a lot, so use subtelty to get around that. Perhaps you could use a disguised member to draw them off (say by... pretending to have been robbed).

*Avoid attacks in public places where you can expect lots of guards (even if noone is there). Ambush people in the canals. Drag them off into cutthroat alley. Push them off the ledge in the docks when passing. Stab someone silently in a crowd.
But avoid stuff like direct assaults in the middle of the cathedral square (and if you do do that... accept that it is a suicide attack)

*Out of curtsey... actually warn your future victims ooc. So they aren't jumped and spammed out of the blue (which isn't very fun at all... for anyone)

*Flee when the guards comes. Even if your victim still lives.

Guards and justice:
*Don't always "win". Allow yourself to the distracted, fooled, cheated, bribed. If you see a fight, feel free to flee only to return later with reinforcements. Allow the flame to actually succeed on occassion. Not always of course.

*When you do catch the flame. Don't haul them in the prison to rot. That's just about the most boring thing one can do. Hang around... talk to them, interrogate them, beat them up for the insolence or injured friends.
Rp with them and make sure the trial/punishment comes quickly so they can go back to rping instead sitting bored in a cell.

*Don't spot them from a mile away. If the scarlets can wear their tabards with an insigna, you have to get close to see that insigna. So approach everyone with a scarlet tabard and question then. If you see a crimson flame, then approach and check they aren't crusaders... which means asking them to show their insigna.

*Punish quickly. Don't let them wait.

*Work with them. If they want to slip past once in a while or attack a high profile area. Discuss it with them and work out a way to make it happen.

*Don't see through their disguises... Even if you know their faces, allow them some leeway. And if you do recognise them... warn them ooc at some point that they need a new disguise.

*Don't start fights. You're there to keep the peace, not kill everyone flagged as an enemy. Always offer them a chance to surrender and try at all cost avoid to start a fight.

---

That's a bunch of ideas. What do you think about them? Would they work?

[Gunnell]

*Sigh*

Here we go again. I won't waste my time, peoples opinions here are made up and won't be changing.

[Sanara]

I just don't see why people RP using a Scarlet name/theme, when they don't actually intend to take the consequences of roleplaying Scarlets...

[Guest]

Thanks for your advice Galhalla, but much of it is unnecessary. We whisper our victims OOC. We DON'T attack guards OR the Cathedral unless we are provoked and taunted into doing so with force and then we -do- accept we WILL loose that conquest. Currently there's three off us in prison and our captain was defeaten.

We won't EVER take the initiative to attack ANYONE out in the open unless we are engaged or otherwise forced into it. If we attack ANY death knight it won't be on the Cathedral, we will take them away to a secluded spot, try too, and fight them off somewhere away from prying eyes. Plus we don't kill off any of our victims. We whisper them OOCly what we can do, how far we're allowed to go and we'll just dump 'em off somewhere random with a wound.

We've been beaten many times and we are FAR from immortal in any way. When we are outnumbered we flee unless one of us is in danger.

Most of the public fights we've had have all been forced upon us by other parties attacking us and taking the initiative to start a massive scene. We will defend ourselves and I don't know where the illusion comes from everyone hates us, because I doubt that is true in the least.

We have good communications OOCly and I've yet to receive a complaint about our style.

1. We don't power emote.
2. We take consequences.
3. We don't fight anyone that isn't evil, unless we are attacked/forced into it.
4. We don't even fight evil on public places.
5. We -try- to run away when outnumbered.

This thread creates a wrong illusion about our guild and comes over, in the general atmosphere, as a bash-the-flame thread to me.

To those that mean good; Thank you, we are here for the community and its RPers, and to help on with some interesting RP as opposed to heroes-standing-at-Cath.

If you don't want us to harass your character or bother you in any way, do send us a whisper you would rather not get your character involved and we'll respect your request. But if you attack us and insult us, and we defend ourselves and then come to forums and start a anti-us thread, well, I'm sorry but that reaches deaf ears.

There are a few new RPers among us that are still learning they are generally lower levelled, feel free to help them and whisper any officer if there's a problem with their RP-style.

When we DO attack you without warning it is because;
1. You represent a guild that has attacked us.
2. You have insulted us and told us to get lost and blasphemed in our faces.
3. You have attacked us in the past.

Now, we have taken your constructive criticisms under consideration and we always look to improve our guild, of course.

Thanks for those that gave some positive and constructive feedback.

[Kil'drakor]

No offense but in stead of spending all your time caught up in this drama, you should have repelled the forsaken invaders at Westfall! You didn't need to worry about emoting them to death either, actually.

And on topic, role-playing Scarlet Crusaders in Stormwind in my opinion is as valid as role-playing the queen of Stromgarde. In Stormwind. People are responsible for their own role-play. The only thing you can do is toughen up, or avoid role-playing with them.

[Shaelyssa]

Why is this not being discussed in private? I don't see nor understand why it's being made public other than for a few unpleasant and mean reasons.

[Gahalla]

It's good to know at least some of my post was useful to you. I think you missed my main point though (I admit I wasn't too clear about it).

You should make your own version of that list. Sort of like a statement on "this is what you can expect from us and this is what we expect from you" in clear wording. Then the guards/justice discuss what they want to see and are willing to do and together you agree on a code of conduct.

What is important is that both sides now what to expect and do what is expected of them. Even common sense things should be written down really.

Also: Regarding the no complaints thing. I've never actually seen that happen on a big scale. Mostly what people are annoyed about are only discussed with friends and closed circles form that grow more and more annoyed. Eventually it either surfaces in threads like this and in recruitment threads or it all explodes in a big mess (exaggerated, but not too unaccurate I fear).

This thread is perhaps one of the best chances everyone has to solve things before it gets ugly.

[Guest]

Why is this not being discussed in private? I don't see nor understand why it's being made public other than for a few unpleasant and mean reasons.

Exactly what I suggest and have suggested. This seems merely like a "Flame-the-Flame" thread that Saihna makes because she has some personal dislike for our guild for some strange reason.

Seems like all she's intend to do is give us a bad name. I've not once recieved a ingame whisper, nor our leader, for bad conduct or for anyone to discuss such things with us. And we eagerly await feedback.

[Shaelyssa]

I do not think Saihna is actually acting out of dislike. I am sure she is being very sincere about trying to be constructive and helpful, although I perhaps may have spoken too prematurely. I really don't know what's going on in Stormwind (thank God! :p) so I probably should keep my mouth shut. At any rate, maybe it would be better to move this thread into a private forum or something? In any case, be nice everyone!

[Cathee Norris]

It was you yourself that asked that people made a thread like this to discuss and give constructive criticism, rather then derailing the recruitment thread. I was pointing out why people might feel the need to flame.

Personally I see no reason to whisper anyone in game as I simply try to avoid you all together. That's my choice as you also said yourself. But dislike? I don't really dislike you, but the way you conduct your roleplay. If such is changed I might also change my mind, but that is however up to you yourself. If you enjoy the roleplay you do now, that's fair enough. But enjoying the game is a two-way thing. You can't really just enjoy it and do whatever you like and expect people to not comment it. You'll in at least some way have to make sure others enjoy too really, since after all, all of us are real people behind our characters, with all very different opinions.

So no, I had no ill intent. You asked for a thread like this, I created it. You got constructive criticism from me, and others. So no need to be rude.

[Guest]

I find the whole "The NPC guards would do something" to be an extremely hollow arguement to limit RP with. Sure, you don't have to exaggerate by stabbing person X to death in front of the king, but yeah, I don't find total submission to NPCs that are following a strict code to wander around and around very immersive at all - even less so than watching someone fight next to them.

Also, I've found that the "The NPCs would do something" arguement is rarely very consequent. Lighties like to use that argument over, and over again. Yet, when they're standing alone in the lamb attacking warlocks, or invading Darkshire in a number of two or three, the rule no longer applies for some reason.

Why?

Because it'd be fucking boring.

[Zhakiri]

Andrek, I completely agree to some extent but I've heard and seen that these guys have open warfare in the Cathedral District...I mean, Old Town and it'll be cool, but that is a busy district.

[Magaskawee/Anaei]

Andrek, I completely agree to some extent but I've heard and seen that these guys have open warfare in the Cathedral District...I mean, Old Town and it'll be cool, but that is a busy district.

I don't mind them attacking the Cathedral District, swift fleeing to the docks and you are outta there. But the Cathedral itself? Benedictus would throw down as would some of the most powerful paladins the Alliance has.

[Guest]

Andrek, I completely agree to some extent but I've heard and seen that these guys have open warfare in the Cathedral District...I mean, Old Town and it'll be cool, but that is a busy district.

I get what you mean, but it doesn't change my point at all. Especially since Cathedral Square could hardly get any more boring than it already is.

My point in essence remains; I won't treat NPCs as actual, involved characters with a direct effect on my roleplay. Especially since these are stubbornly ignored in every sense - except for the occasions that they'd be useful to hunt certain roleplayers. How many people pretends to be bumped into every time a Stormwind Guard walks through them? Very few. And why don't they? Because it has absolutely no immersive factor at all - the guards are walking around in circles, following a strict code to do.. well, nothing besides that.

We can't affect the NPCs, thus, I don't see that they should be affecting our roleplay. NPCs are an important factor in singleplayer RPGs, in MMORPGs, its the real person social factor that actually counts - thus, real players > NPCs.

[Zhakiri]

Real players > NPC's for sure, but without NPCs there wouldn't be half as much realism in the game. You can't expect guard guilds to be on 100% of the time, can ya?

Thus you have to accept and use the NPCs responsibly because making a massive ruckus outside the Cathedral would not only get the inhabitants of the Cathedral -MEGA- pissed but imagine the swing of that Orphanage Mistress for waking up her kids! :O

You have to play abit of give and take here, tbh.

[Guest]

Real players > NPC's for sure, but without NPCs there wouldn't be half as much realism in the game. You can't expect guard guilds to be on 100% of the time, can ya?

Thus you have to accept and use the NPCs responsibly because making a massive ruckus outside the Cathedral would not only get the inhabitants of the Cathedral -MEGA- pissed but imagine the swing of that Orphanage Mistress for waking up her kids! :O

You have to play abit of give and take here, tbh.

... there is no realism in the game that NPCs are to be thanked for, at least not in the sense of RP. If there's none to stop person X from doing something bad, then none would even know that person X did something bad in the first place. Thus, we assume person X is not lame enough to whisper "We blew up the Cathedral while you were gone", or say something equally outrageous like "We burned Darkshire to the ground while you were gone", and therefore there is no problem.

Like I said, I've never seen anyone give NPCs any kind of notice except when it really suits them to avoid dealing with something they'd rather not. Thus, I still fail to take the arguement seriously.

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