Sexuality in WoW

Clydas wrote:

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:

Cid wrote:/cough
Martek the Exiled
*Male Belf admirer*

Is a figment of the orc's imagination

So it's just Martek's wishful thinking, huh? Don't think that makes him any less bi, tbh

Well, maybe not wishful thinking, maybe he just has trouble differentiating between male and female blood elves.

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:

Clydas wrote:

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:

Cid wrote:/cough
Martek the Exiled
*Male Belf admirer*

Is a figment of the orc's imagination

So it's just Martek's wishful thinking, huh? Don't think that makes him any less bi, tbh

Well, maybe not wishful thinking, maybe he just has trouble differentiating between male and female blood elves.

I've found that most greenskins do

No one mentioned Thassarian and his Twink!

'Tis an interesting topic, on which I am fairly opinionated. But I'll start by sharing my thoughts on what was actually asked:

erwtenpeller wrote:
Should we, as role-players, be following the lacking canon, or should we be filling the gaps as we see fit, through personal insight?

The answer to that depends entirely on why one choose to roleplay. Do you do it to tirelessly slave under lore for the sake of 100% perfection and immersion, or do you roleplay to join in, or tell a story? I do the latter, and am way more concerned about what is actually good and enjoyable storytelling; while that involves adhering to the laws of the universe you're in, the lore CAN sometimes be tweaked or expanded on if it fits. "The Rule of Cool" (so long as it isn't abused/misused) is a great example of what I'm talking about in general, but for the issue of lacking canon in particular, my point is that the individual RP'er should see that as an opportunity to get creative rather than treat it as an obstacle or, worse yet, "murky waters to stay away from".

It's true that sexuality is one of the hardest things to portray in a story, but that doesn't mean you should shy away from it. Embrace the challenge, and make something interesting of it based off of what you already know about the world.

erwtenpeller wrote:And... Then, how would you see these gaps filled? What effects do you think having lived for a thousand years has on your sexuality? Or being very short? What about cross-racial? Every race in wow is humanoid-- It's safe to assume they can get it on. Should they?

I would think the "prolonged courting" is a great example of how sexuality might affect longer lived races, just as I imagine their social interplay in general becomes more complex, with longer-held grudges, debts, and so on. But it's not all you can do with it... If you consider homosexuality as a natural form of "population control", then I would imagine it is more commonplace in races such as Kaldorei or Sin'dorei - fair enough as was stated above that the Sin'dorei society might frown on it based off of some sort of "Reverse China" idea, but then we come back to the point that longer-lived races should be slower to change or adapt, so even if Quel'thalas is a totalitarian society, certain types of sexuality might be something that would be hard to stomp out or build a very sudden social stigma around. This, I think, holds especially true to Blood Elves since, based on their overall behaviour ingame, pleasure and hedonism seems to be rather prevalent in their social values. From the belves at Saltheril's Haven that basically get drunk and feast on good food despite their proximity to the dead scar and the ghostlands (they're the type of people that would go watch the Farstriders fight off a wave of undead as evening entertainment to go with their nightcap) to that blood elf at Falcon Watch who you trick by offering alcohol, and the fact that they're basically a collective of recovering magic addicts... it all generally strikes me as a bit similar to the pre-Slaanesh Eldars in the Warhammer 40k universe, and I don't see why sexuality shouldn't be treated as "just another indulgence" far more than a necessity for procreation. Because even though the Sin'dorei were absolutely crippled by the scourge, they are still a long-lived race, and as such they definitely still have time to regrow their numbers. Should a similar plight befall a race like the trolls, however, it would spell disaster in a completely different way, and give reason for far more drastic societal changes.

But again, since all of this is really just left to our own interpretation, to me it once again boils down to what good storytelling in this instance would be. I personally would NOT roleplay a character, regardless of race, who was anti-gay, for the same reason that I wouldn't roleplay a human white supremacist in Stormwind. It can be argued to be in bad taste first of all, but furthermore, I think the Warcraft setting offers far more appealing ways to explore these kinds of concepts, and, if you want to place yourself on the more judgmental end of the spectrum, far more creative ways for your character to be a bigoted ass.

If reproduction is important to the recovering Blood Elves, then perhaps it's cross-species relations that carries the stigma. Then you have TWO interesting hooks to build on, because the sexuality is there, but so is "speciesism" as a form of racism. Furthermore, it allows for people's characters to have disagreements over it ICly, without feeling uncomfortable about real-world parallels... while that might not be a big issue for some, I personally prefer to leave such connections as far behind as possible. To me, RP is an escape from reality, and not an extension of it, and while rational, common sense is important to portray a believable character, it is what makes sense in the universe itself that should thus apply, and not the preconceived notions we hold based on what we see in our own world. As such... be creative, find new solutions, and go ahead and explore the concepts and ideas you find interesting; if you shy away from that as did the person that Erwt mentioned in the OP, then I consider you all the poorer.



Now, lastly I suppose I can add how I have solved this for my own characters... Tyros and Cale are both blood elves, but of considerably different ages, so I imagine that too plays part as much as the society around them.

Tyros is in his 60's, and since I imagine Belves to take a few more decades to truly settle into adulthood, I feel it's reasonable to think he is at a point where finding a place of his own and starting a family might be important. He's got his career figured out, so that leaves the personal life, where he recently got married and is starting up a family, though not without encountering problems due to his sense of entitlement.

Cale is in his early 200's. He's seen things, he's been married and divorced. His libido is pretty low, and the mundane, daily routine accumulated over two centuries of life has made him a bit jaded just as it has dulled him emotionally. Not in the sense that he is "dark and brooding", but just that he interacts with people of the opposite gender and rarely sees anything new or anything that catches his fancy. He has seen it so many times before that it has stopped being special, and he would need a lively, youthful force that breaks his routine to change that. The bonds he form therefore, are mainly built on reasons other than lust or attraction, moreso as he is a believer on top of it all. He hasn't been funneled into any boring molds based on real world churches, though, as I don't see anything in the teachings of the Light that suggest one should be chaste or sexually conservative. A lot of RP'ers surprise me by seemingly channeling this notion of religion into their expectations of faith in WoW, but I resent it as a deviation from what is actually there and visible (or in this case, NOT visible) in the game world. As such, Cale will be quick to spout dogma along the lines of "Love is the greatest Light", if he ever ends up in talks like that. However, just because he defends certain lifestyle choices, that doesn't mean he partakes in them; he just doesn't see how their existence or non-existence are relevant to his faith, and would be more concerned about people trying to abuse religious dogma to start churches or doctrines that rival his own.

erwtenpeller wrote:Now, the question I'd like to ask the community is:
Should we, as role-players, be following the lacking canon, or should we be filling the gaps as we see fit, through personal insight?

Of course we should. That sexuality is not very widely touched on in lore is because the game's focus is on other areas (plus censorship). That does not mean it does not exist.

Sexuality is an important issue for many characters, and there's no reason it should be avoided just because it's not mentioned in lore.

To be honest, the person you mentioned just sounded like a homophobic player rather than being concerned with anything in lore. Because, frankly, night elf lore has the most support for homosexual relationships.

And... Then, how would you see these gaps filled? What effects do you think having lived for a thousand years has on your sexuality? Or being very short? What about cross-racial? Every race in wow is humanoid-- It's safe to assume they can get it on. Should they?Discuss!

We've had quite a few discussions on the topic for draenei over the years (such as this one on these forums). One of the things typically assumed is that draenei were rather hedonistic on Argus and because of the fact that their immortality makes excessive reproduction a bad thing, the majority of sex was probably done for pleasure rather than for reproduction. As such, there would be less of a bias against homosexual relationships. (We also discussed the idea of very careful and extensive family planning to keep Argus from getting too overpopulated).

But due to there being many periods of time where the draenei had "population crisis'", especially in the present, along with draenic culture fostering a communal spirit and acting for the benefit of the wider society more than for the benefit of the self, I can see "proper", reproductive sexuality being strongly encouraged at certain periods. I personally play Drustai as feeling rather guilty at the fact that she has not had children, and has no desire to have children, because she is not helping in the survival of the race. And being the awkward creep she is, she's always focused more on using her magic to get her needs filled rather than seeking companionship in real people (illusions, and lately using her necromancy to somewhat "cheat" the no-sex-for-undead thing by triggering the unholy pleasure from killing while she's playing out her illusive fantasies). Of course, despite being so selfish herself, she's also been very opposed to same-sex (and cross-species) relationships among her kin, hypocritically thinking them selfish for looking to their own pleasure instead of to what draenei society needs.


Areyah on the other hand is a different can of worms. Human sexuality is obviously something we're all familiar with, but there is the era to consider. Areyah as a member of the nobility was raised to follow very strict levels of sexuality--only with other members of the nobility, strictly monogamous with only having sex and children with one's arranged life partner, heterosexual only, and same-race only. Of course, she rebelled against all of that, and regularly sleeps with non-nobility, cheated on her husband (hence the divorce), is secretly bisexual, and has probably slept with other races. But yet she views it as wrong, tries (and fails) to keep her 'escapades' hidden, and strictly enforces the "proper" way of things for her own daughter.


Sexuality is something I keep in mind for all of my characters. It's a significant part of life and so I think it's an important aspect to consider when designing their personalities.

Those where some very interesting and informative replies!

Drustai wrote:[
We've had quite a few discussions on the topic for draenei over the years (such as this one on these forums). One of the things typically assumed is that draenei were rather hedonistic on Argus and because of the fact that their immortality makes excessive reproduction a bad thing, the majority of sex was probably done for pleasure rather than for reproduction. As such, there would be less of a bias against homosexual relationships. (We also discussed the idea of very careful and extensive family planning to keep Argus from getting too overpopulated).

But due to there being many periods of time where the draenei had "population crisis'", especially in the present, along with draenic culture fostering a communal spirit and acting for the benefit of the wider society more than for the benefit of the self, I can see "proper", reproductive sexuality being strongly encouraged at certain periods. I personally play Drustai as feeling rather guilty at the fact that she has not had children, and has no desire to have children, because she is not helping in the survival of the race. And being the awkward creep she is, she's always focused more on using her magic to get her needs filled rather than seeking companionship in real people (illusions, and lately using her necromancy to somewhat "cheat" the no-sex-for-undead thing by triggering the unholy pleasure from killing while she's playing out her illusive fantasies). Of course, despite being so selfish herself, she's also been very opposed to same-sex (and cross-species) relationships among her kin, hypocritically thinking them selfish for looking to their own pleasure instead of to what draenei society needs.

i do very much agree with this also.. monrena herself has on amny occasiond openly admitted the desire for children with *coughs* a hunking strong vindicator or similar, and this can be seen in her pining and constant flirting with the various males, she usualy targets the shy ones due to her love of seeing people squirm with embarrassment but thats a whole other issue,

however.. despite my starting monny as prity much and to put it simply.. one of loving men only.. various things did happen ic which opend her mind to the possibility of same sex relations.. thow she herself feels incredibly guilty due to this unorthedx romance..

Draenie men are just so rair and hard to find!!

thow as for the draenei reproduction I tend to spin my own little twist on it.. look threwout the animal kingdom irl.. animals that live longer have a longer repoductive cycle.. and the longer they live. the less ofspring they can have at any given time.. and with draenei having such long lives.. I tend to play draenei as being by large, a very infertile race thus giving a whole new meaning to the repodiction issues ic

all these together and with monrena having just reached full responsible addaulthuood.. puts emence pressure on her to find a soutor to have children..




(and considering draenei can have children with orc's orc's with humans, logic stipulates draenei human is possible too.. thus even human males are a possibility if in the dire end of it she cannot find someone suitable which she is deeply hopefull not to go there as that would greatly shorten the lifespan of any potential offspring but this is again for another topic)


I would expect a similer pressure to be placed on most female draenei and males to at this point in there history

Monrena wrote:thow as for the draenei reproduction I tend to spin my own little twist on it.. look threwout the animal kingdom irl.. animals that live longer have a longer repoductive cycle.. and the longer they live. the less ofspring they can have at any given time.. and with draenei having such long lives.. I tend to play draenei as being by large, a very infertile race thus giving a whole new meaning to the repodiction issues ic

The problem with this, as discussed in the thread I linked, is that we're unsure how the draenei became immortal. If it's natural, then yes, they'd be rather infertile, with long reproductive cycles. If it's the result of magical tampering--since they were the greatest magical society in the universe--then it's possible they'd still have shorter reproductive cycles.

I think in that discussion, or since then, we ultimately went with a bit of a balance between the two, with somewhat longer reproductive cycles (fertile once every year or every ten years or so) along with deliberate family planning to ensure there is no overpopulation.

AY that i fully agree with And I am currently going with the once every 10 years... have done since I started rp'ing monny I roll once on every one of my birthdays to see if that year is the year of having children for her

The life span seems to be one of the most important hooks to build an idea of sexuality for a race around, which for Night Elves is slightly problematic. It's best to assume their natural, pre-Nordrassil, life-span would be the life-span to shape things like libido. Yet I (we?) am not entirely sure on how long-lived they were, I've read conflicting "lore" - some saying the well of eternity made them immortal (would that then only apply to the Quel-dorei? Was there a queen/king pre-Azshara?), others say just long-lived. Personally I think the later is the case, supported by the Belf cousin lifespan, which I consider to be equal or (significantly) shorter than the life-span of pre-nordrassil Kaldorei. The next problem is how natural their lifespans would be. Being descended from trolls they would have a history of shorter life spans, which is altered by the well of eternity, but to what extent? What longevity became naturally part of the Kaldorei, what part was fueled by the well? I think there's atleast a couple of hundred years of 'natural' years in them. As pointed out above long reproductive cycles, long courtships would make sense for long-lived races, but I would add to that decreased libido (when compared to humans), to naturally make sure there's no overpopulation (along side increased homosexuality).

The "sex"culture of Kaldorei might've always consisted of some troll standards, together with allowing natural tendencies to go their way, and some highborne decadent "immorality". This sense of acting upon your natural feelings is probably strengthened now with druidism being the way of life, which to me would mean there's no moral laws restricting homosexuality or polyamory. Interspecies love would probably be an issue because of the (waning) night elf superiority complex.

In night elf society there's this apperent tendency to monogamy. I think there's monogamy (yes, gamos, still butthurt over that) because Night Elves, contrary to what people tend to play them as, might have a restricted libido. To me personally that's the only logical explanation. They don't care to restrict themselves to one person as much because they don't have a terrible itch they need to scratch with everything that moves and breathes. Even in hedonistic societies you need to consider the "baseline libido"; Your culture might allow you to sleep around but if you don't enjoy that you probably won't do it.

End of the day, there's not enough lore on the subject to draw reliable inferences.

If you just keep it moderately plausible, and make sure you aren't yet another male playing a pretty lesbian for self-gratification (because that's frankly -so- 2005; you might as well go strip and dance on a mailbox ), you can't go too far wrong.

Essentially, in the absence of certainty either way, it's nobody else's damn business to say you're wrong, and I'd be highly suspicious of the motives of anyone doing so. There's a lot of rather unpleasant homophobia around in the community (just check the responses on the film discussion thread, for some of it!), and raising thinly-supported objections to homosexual characters is often just another manifestation of that.

Darilas (gay male Sin'Dorei) was not decided on his sexuality when I started playing him. He has been together with both male and female partners, before he fell in love for the first time, and the person he fell in love with happened to be male. Since then he is convinced of/identifies as being gay and has not yet been proven differently. Besides him I play (sometimes) two straight Sin'Dorei women, a non-decided Sin'dorei male and a straight acting but bicurious Sin'Dorei male. To me my characters' preference is a matter of partly OOC preference (me being a mostly straight woman IRL), what happens during RP, and I guess what feels comfortable, accepted or fun. Lore or game-mechanics are hardly influencing this kind of personal feelings, to me. About gay male Sin'Dorei NPC's: during Winter Veil there are always two males doing /shy and /flirt to each other under the mistletoe in Wayfarer's :p

Thrakha wrote:Essentially, in the absence of certainty either way, it's nobody else's damn business to say you're wrong, and I'd be highly suspicious of the motives of anyone doing so. There's a lot of rather unpleasant homophobia around in the community (just check the responses on the film discussion thread, for some of it!), and raising thinly-supported objections to homosexual characters is often just another manifestation of that.

This really, there's about as much evidence for homosexuality being accepted as persecuted: that is to say, pretty much none either way. With that in mind I seriously have to wonder about the people who want to depict it as persecuted. And the people running about spouting FAGGOT in character. Where would that even come from, and why would it be used as an insult, if there's no canon basis for anti-gay sentiment in society?

I rp'd a gay character, it wasn't a big deal, it didn't define him or his personality, but it was an important aspect of him. I ran into some pretty unpleasant anti-gay stuff here and there, and there's no explicit basis for it, so...eh. "But it's just my character!" Doen't really hold up with no hint of support from lore unless you accept that your character's beliefs are as icly as bizarre and out of line as someone who hates brunettes and goes about shouting POOPHEAD at dark-haired chaps.

I also ran into a fair amount of ooc bigots/homophobes. One of which went on at great length in guildchat about how gross and disgusting it was that anyone would want to rp something like that and how I BETTER NOT TRY TO RP WITH HIM OR TRY TO FLIRT WITH HIM OH GOD EW GROSS (He was kicked a little while after).

And this was a char that: never had any actual relationships whilst I played him, just was gay and one or two people knew about it.

TL:dr it's interesting to consider, it's an important side to the character, and there's nothing really mentioned in lore either way. So whilst it's fun to theorise I'm sort of side-eyeing those who argue that [race] would persecute it.
Oh, and a small but unpleasant number of the playerbase are casually homophobic ic and ooc. Tbh I think it's more immature/teen players than actual hate though.

Kit, you just phrased exactly my experience and the things that bug me about ic/ooc homophobia. Thanks.

Dréfurion wrote:The life span seems to be one of the most important hooks to build an idea of sexuality for a race around, which for Night Elves is slightly problematic. It's best to assume their natural, pre-Nordrassil, life-span would be the life-span to shape things like libido. Yet I (we?) am not entirely sure on how long-lived they were, I've read conflicting "lore" - some saying the well of eternity made them immortal (would that then only apply to the Quel-dorei? Was there a queen/king pre-Azshara?), others say just long-lived. Personally I think the later is the case, supported by the Belf cousin lifespan, which I consider to be equal or (significantly) shorter than the life-span of pre-nordrassil Kaldorei. The next problem is how natural their lifespans would be. Being descended from trolls they would have a history of shorter life spans, which is altered by the well of eternity, but to what extent? What longevity became naturally part of the Kaldorei, what part was fueled by the well? I think there's atleast a couple of hundred years of 'natural' years in them. As pointed out above long reproductive cycles, long courtships would make sense for long-lived races, but I would add to that decreased libido (when compared to humans), to naturally make sure there's no overpopulation (along side increased homosexuality).

At the launch of TBC, on the old blizzard site, it was said that Blood Elves, High Elves and Night Elves had comparable lifespans of several thousand years, but this is pre-Light Sunwell, so who knows. Dath'remar Sunstrider supposedly was the 20th generation to serve the throne, this may actually predate the discovery of the Well of Eternity by the Kaldorei. And Anasterian was in his prime 3000 years ago, so it isn't completely impossible that the whole history of Thalassian royalty was 3 generations (Dath'remar -> Anasterian -> Kael'thas).

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:

Dréfurion wrote:The life span seems to be one of the most important hooks to build an idea of sexuality for a race around, which for Night Elves is slightly problematic. It's best to assume their natural, pre-Nordrassil, life-span would be the life-span to shape things like libido. Yet I (we?) am not entirely sure on how long-lived they were, I've read conflicting "lore" - some saying the well of eternity made them immortal (would that then only apply to the Quel-dorei? Was there a queen/king pre-Azshara?), others say just long-lived. Personally I think the later is the case, supported by the Belf cousin lifespan, which I consider to be equal or (significantly) shorter than the life-span of pre-nordrassil Kaldorei. The next problem is how natural their lifespans would be. Being descended from trolls they would have a history of shorter life spans, which is altered by the well of eternity, but to what extent? What longevity became naturally part of the Kaldorei, what part was fueled by the well? I think there's atleast a couple of hundred years of 'natural' years in them. As pointed out above long reproductive cycles, long courtships would make sense for long-lived races, but I would add to that decreased libido (when compared to humans), to naturally make sure there's no overpopulation (along side increased homosexuality).

At the launch of TBC, on the old blizzard site, it was said that Blood Elves, High Elves and Night Elves had comparable lifespans of several thousand years, but this is pre-Light Sunwell, so who knows. Dath'remar Sunstrider supposedly was the 20th generation to serve the throne, this may actually predate the discovery of the Well of Eternity by the Kaldorei. And Anasterian was in his prime 3000 years ago, so it isn't completely impossible that the whole history of Thalassian royalty was 3 generations (Dath'remar -> Anasterian -> Kael'thas).

They've changed/removed so much surrounding pre-Nordrassil lore that it's a little.. mysterious.. I really like to ponder on Aszhara's possible predecessors.. Were there kings or only queens (lolgayjoke)? But that's for a diffrent thread.

Kittrina wrote:

Thrakha wrote:Essentially, in the absence of certainty either way, it's nobody else's damn business to say you're wrong, and I'd be highly suspicious of the motives of anyone doing so. There's a lot of rather unpleasant homophobia around in the community (just check the responses on the film discussion thread, for some of it!), and raising thinly-supported objections to homosexual characters is often just another manifestation of that.

This really, there's about as much evidence for homosexuality being accepted as persecuted: that is to say, pretty much none either way. With that in mind I seriously have to wonder about the people who want to depict it as persecuted. And the people running about spouting FAGGOT in character. Where would that even come from, and why would it be used as an insult, if there's no canon basis for anti-gay sentiment in society?

Because having it persecuted results in conflict. Conflict is the fruit of RP. The same reason why RP racism and "lifism" are better than happy equality everywhere between everyone. If you're implying that people should never ever want to depict it as persecuted, because if they do that apparently makes them OOC bigots, then that's being just as bad as actual OOC bigots, IMO.

I'm a member of the LGBT community, yet I love playing extremist characters who both receive persecution and abuse and who give out persecution and abuse. Because that creates conflict, which creates RP. I do not want, and actively oppose, sugarcoating RP to prevent potential OOC offense. Characters will be assholes to each other. That's a good thing. The player's own personal beliefs should not be influencing those interactions. IC/OOC separation.

... I ran into some pretty unpleasant anti-gay stuff here and there, and there's no explicit basis for it, so...eh. "But it's just my character!" Doen't really hold up with no hint of support from lore unless you accept that your character's beliefs are as icly as bizarre and out of line as someone who hates brunettes and goes about shouting POOPHEAD at dark-haired chaps.

Be careful about being hypocritical here. There is little in the way of lore for or against. Therefore, it is perfectly justified to play characters who are both for and who are against, in equal measure. If the lack of canon is makes it okay to play gay characters, then the lack of canon also makes it okay to play anti-gay characters... likewise if you say the lack of lore on it means that people shouldn't play anti-gay characters, then likewise they shouldn't play gay characters. The two go hand-in-hand, and there is absolutely no reason why one would be okay and the other would not be. And frankly, just because there is no canon basis on a racial or societal level, does not mean that there cannot be logical basis on a character or familial level.

Drustai is completely right. We assume there are homosexuals of all sorts in WoW simply because it's a world of human/humanoid creatures that share 99% of our other RL needs and feelings. Also, if you're being offended because someone's character is homophobic, then that's on your own head. It's enjoyable playing characters who are horrible people - it creates drama and tension. Just because someone uses the word faggot IC doesn't mean they're a homophobe OOC - you have a very simple mind if you think that's how things work.

I will admit the use of the word faggot might be a bit iffy, because it implies a more widespread, societal thing (since it's in the language) rather than just on a character level. On the other hand, we're frankly not speaking actual Common. As players we're speaking English, but our characters are speaking Common (or whatever other language), and therefore you need to step back a bit and consider that the word choices we as players use may not be exact translations for what the characters themselves are speaking.

Vaell wrote:Drustai is completely right. We assume there are homosexuals of all sorts in WoW simply because it's a world of human/humanoid creatures that share 99% of our other RL needs and feelings. Also, if you're being offended because someone's character is homophobic, then that's on your own head. It's enjoyable playing characters who are horrible people - it creates drama and tension. Just because someone uses the word faggot IC doesn't mean they're a homophobe OOC - you have a very simple mind if you think that's how things work.

I'd agree, to a point. Racism exists in WoW, bigots, prejudice and fear. So I am quite sure distrust of something "different" could breed (homo)phobia (remember folks, it's not truly a phobia, you're not scared of gays, you're just being a twat).

But I do think there is some rife and rampant homophobia (racism etc too) that raises its ugly head in WoW (along with many MMOs and online games). I have witnessed and had reported a number of people being directly homophobic in game under the pretence of "IC" when it's quite clearly OOC issues being taken in game (things like Kitt's guild example). I don't think what is described is that uncommon, to be fair. Sadly.

Edit: "Faggot" used in any sense tends to carry OOC impulse and reason. It's has as little place in WoW as "nigger" or "jew". Again two words I've seen in "RP" (an Orc is a nigger because he had darker skin... what?! a goblin "jewed" someone out of a deal... ok...). Getting in to the "weighting of the word" might not be the best place here. But language does matter, and "faggot" all too often is used OOC, not IC at all. Unless you're talking about firewood. But no one actually calls stacks of firewood faggots... unless they're in Victorian England (hello Gilneas?!).

Yeah, when it's clearly OOCly motivated then that is a definite problem that needs to be addressed. I was more defending those of us who play IC bigots while having no such beliefs OOC.

Drustai wrote:
Because having it persecuted results in conflict. Conflict is the fruit of RP. The same reason why RP racism and "lifism" are better than happy equality everywhere between everyone. If you're implying that people should never ever want to depict it as persecuted, because if they do that apparently makes them OOC bigots, then that's being just as bad as actual OOC bigots, IMO.

Except the other prejudices you mentioned are very wow-specific and canonical (If you mean speciesism rather than ‘racism’, anyway, I can’t think of any troll-on-troll violence for being a different shade of green off the top of my head, for example.)
I’m not straight either, it doesn't add any weight to either of arguments so I’d be careful adding it in there to try to give your argument more merit. If you’re fine with it, that’s cool, it doesn't mean all LGBT players will be though, and it doesn't mean they should be either.

And yeah, characters being assholes to each other is fine and grand. CONFLICT is fine and grand. I never equated IC and OOC homophobic so kindly back the fuck off from putting words in my mouth to that regard: I said I’d run into both, not that one equalled the other. I do not think that playing a homophobe means you are one in any way; I just wonder about how a homophobe would come about in a society that has apparently zero opinion on sexual mores.
Several NPCs exist that heavily suggest through dialogue that they’re that way inclined. But Blizz being Blizz nothing is explicit.

Also, finally on ‘faggot’: I think the main thing that bugs me is how out-of-place it is. It belong in the mouths of teen American fratboys and angry LoL players. If you want to be homophobic ic, there are literally thousands of more setting-appropriate terms, that also have the upside of not looking shit to new rpers.

Easily.

You are in love with a girl. it is the romance of your life, your first and best love. You have highest hopes. Then your girl leaves you...for another girl. There, homophobe origin story!

You are a human patriot, you see four of the seven human kingdoms fall, thousands die in a war. And instead of making children, those....THINGS are fiddling with each other! Another homophobe origin story.

...point is, I can do this all day.

Kittrina wrote:someone who hates brunettes and goes about shouting POOPHEAD at dark-haired chaps.

This made me laugh, heh. The image of it is quite funny. POOPHEAD! I can totally picture a blonde blood elf being "racist" against brunettes xD

Kittrina wrote:(If you mean speciesism rather than ‘racism’, anyway, I can’t think of any troll-on-troll violence for being a different shade of green off the top of my head, for example.)

I think Trolls might be the one race that's seen the most conflict among each other. For them, being from a different tribe is totally a good reason for murder.

Kittrina wrote:Also, finally on ‘faggot’: I think the main thing that bugs me is how out-of-place it is. It belong in the mouths of teen American fratboys and angry LoL players. If you want to be homophobic ic, there are literally thousands of more setting-appropriate terms, that also have the upside of not looking shit to new rpers.

YES! I can't stand any sort of cursing in-character, even the use of "fuck" or "fucking". It just looks so completely out of place in a world where modern English curses just don't exist!

Besides, it's more fun to come up with alternatives, anyway. "Grom-damned" is an awesome one.

Kittrina wrote:And yeah, characters being assholes to each other is fine and grand. CONFLICT is fine and grand. I never equated IC and OOC homophobic so kindly back the fuck off from putting words in my mouth to that regard: I said I’d run into both, not that one equalled the other. I do not think that playing a homophobe means you are one in any way; I just wonder about how a homophobe would come about in a society that has apparently zero opinion on sexual mores.

Just because the society as a whole has "zero opinion" on it, doesn't mean individual groups or characters do not. Our RL society today largely says that bigotry is wrong, yet there are still plenty of bigots in the world.

There are many reasons why a character or group might come to those beliefs. A few I listed in my first post on this thread. Several species and cultures have had severe population crisis events in recent years. In such an event, male-female relations become much more strongly encouraged in society for the sake of survival of the species (this very frequently happens IRL when similar events occur, often resulting even in laws and policies to encourage it). That's the primary reason Drustai is against it, just as she is against abortion and believes that every draenei woman should be having babies (and feels ashamed for having not done it herself)--the draenei race were near-extinct after the Orc War.

There's also the fact that a lengthy war demands new soldiers. New soldiers demands male-female relations, and, once again, in RL often resulted in societies encouraging it both culturally and legally. The orcs during the Orc War in particular are heavily implied to do this, seeing as they A) conducted breeding experiments, and B ) explicitly say they are having problems making up for the losses to the point that they begin to magically age children up to adulthood--I don't think it's much of a stretch to assume they may have encouraged male-female relations and discouraged same-sex ones in light of that need for new soldiers. It's a logical development in the event of unsustainable losses. Not saying it's going to be society-wide, or that it would result in bigotry (it could result in encouraging male-female relations without bigotry towards same-sex relations, of course), but the motivation for it developing among individuals definitely exists and can be utilized.

There's also the case of the nobility. In playing Areyah, I treat her as very concerned with lineage and heritage. Same-sex relationships do not result in a child and therefore do not create an heir to pass the lineage on to, and so she is opposed to it as it does not benefit the family's future succession (she likewise opposes relations with commoners for the same reason). While same-sex extramarital relations are possible, that then runs into the issue that said extramarital relations may themselves considered improper. Yet despite that, I still made Areyah bisexual--she's just very conflicted about it, which will result in some interesting RP if it ever comes up.


As for "putting words in your mouth", your comment ("seriously wonder why anyone would want to depict it") certainly felt like it was implying it. Even then, my response specifically stated "if" that's what you were implying. I did not specifically claim you actually were. I apologize if you feel I misinterpreted your comment, but that is how it sounded to me.

erwtenpeller wrote:YES! I can't stand any sort of cursing in-character, even the use of "fuck" or "fucking". It just looks so completely out of place in a world where modern English curses just don't exist!

Besides, it's more fun to come up with alternatives, anyway. "Grom-damned" is an awesome one.

Ugh, this argument. Every word we use is out of place because every word we use is modern English. Having one rule for "normal" words and another for curse words has nothing to do with immersion and everything to do with censorship.

I agree with replacing obvious RL references (hell, God, etcetera (though hell is used in-game, lol)). But fuck is no more an obvious RL reference than "the" or "it" or "or". Fuck is not used in-game for the sole reason that it would result in a higher rating, as it has yet to lose its "serious offense" level in society (whereas words like damn and shit have gradually ceased being serious offenses, and are now starting to be included regularly in games when they were never used ten years ago). Frankly, a word like rendezvous is a far more obvious RL reference than fuck, since rendezvous is extremely obviously French in origin, of which such an origin does not exist in WoW.

We as players speak English. Therefore, there is nothing wrong with using English curses. Our characters are speaking Common, and using Common curses. If we're going to invent new curses just because modern English curses are modern English, then we should invent an entirely new language to go with it, too.

That's not to say that you can't come up with fun original curses, or infuse different words into otherwise normal curses (I liked to use "talbuk shit", or "clefthoof shit", on Drustai. And regularly use "Light-damned" instead of God-damned). But there's no reason that curses with no obvious RL reference (like shit, or fuck) should not be used. Not when we're using the entire rest of the English language.