[H/Blood Elf] Silvermoon Council meeting no. 14.

I thought the council was made to create roleplay, not to force roleplay on others? So the idea of ordering guilds around is wrong in my opinion...

Aishling wrote:I thought the council was made to create roleplay, not to force roleplay on others? So the idea of ordering guilds around is wrong in my opinion...

That's what I thought was obvious.

What I mostly don't understand is: The Council does not have the authority IC to place themselves above a guild.

But the Council does have the authority to ban an entire people from entering it's land.

For me personally it does line up to what the Silvermon Council is outlined to not be, and that is omniscient. The way I have understood is that acknowledgement of the Silvermoon Council and of where their 'power' is drawn comes from an OOC basis, yet that basis is not given to outsiders of Quel'Thalas that the Council would interact with, I personally simply refuse to accept that authority is then automatically supreme just because we're not Sin'Dorei. I was under the impression that something as hefty as a restriction on all races would be at least discussed on an OOC with said racial guilds/members, but that did not happen and that is what has irked me the most.

Ignoring each other is also not the solution, we're neighbors and should work alongside each other. With that said, the way the plague was released wasn't really responsible nor OOCly fair on the Sin'Dorei role-play base, it was a unilateral decision made that did not concern those who would be most affected: And that is the Sin'Dorei. Blanket banning the Forsaken from entering Silvermoon was also a unilateral decision and therein lies my problem with it.

Well, my two cents, the (temporary) ban of Forsaken is a very big thing, but it does not prevent Forsaken from RPing in Silvermoon entirely. I believe the Council implemented a pass that allows you access to the city so that no creepy unknown individuals that may commit another bombing are able to enter the city freely.

A terrorist act has been commited, action was taken until those responsible are sniffed out. May I ask you, in all kindness, what you would have done if you were in this position? Surely one cannot allow to have people attack your land in such a fashion? If an Elf were to commit a serious crime such as this against the Undercity, I would find it logical Elves would not be welcome until the culprit has been presented or they have shown cooperation in finding him. And if I had any business in the Undercity, I would simply request a pass.

I am not involved with the Council anymore, and anyone that is may correct me if I am wrong, but this is RP and I believe the Council simply wants the Forsaken to make an effort trying to find who did this to their allies and if you really want to come into the city, to identify yourself. RP is not being limited in my view, but created.

Well I don't see why absolute authority is required to generate role-play. There is no requirement for absolute power to be present in order to generate interesting role-play. That is to say: The Forsaken are still shunned now to a large extent, insulted, hated upon etc as they are the ones blamed for the plague.

But is it absolutely necessary to OOCly whisper people grief about non-conforming to their representation of what "would Lorth'remar do" when we don't really know what we he would do.

I do agree that it should have yielded consequences - But I also feel that if you're going to apply such consequences, is it not necessary to keep some sort of OOC route? I should have probably said this two weeks ago but it did not really sink in as much as it has in now. Especially when attending I was threatened to be ignored because I wasn't recognizing some sort of ambiguous power that the Silvermoon Council may or may not have?

The plague thing and the travel restriction are hardly comparable.

A and B are neighbours, for some reason they've been really lax about who comes and goes in each others hourse.
One day someone from A's family shits in B's garden. Family B doesn't like that, after some talk they decide that they don't want A's family to visit for a while, after a week A's family is allowed in again, if they knock and announce themselves.


I'll also point out that the two forsaken that acted upon it without angrily storming out got their passes.

But the Council does have the authority to ban an entire people from entering it's land.

Just a little side point, when this happened I was really surprised to find that people put themselves in a position where they control an entire nation. In my opinion such should be avoided and left over for the one(s) that actually is(are) in the position to make such decisions (Such as Lor'themar), even though there won't be any response from said character(s). It's a touchy topic and has massive effects on not only the lore made by the player base, but also that of Blizzard's lore. Would Lor'themar really allow such a thing? How would Sylvanas and the rest of the Horde have replied to it? Etc.

Vangrel Lansire wrote:What I mostly don't understand is: The Council does not have the authority IC to place themselves above a guild.

But the Council does have the authority to ban an entire people from entering it's land.

For me personally it does line up to what the Silvermon Council is outlined to not be, and that is omniscient. The way I have understood is that acknowledgement of the Silvermoon Council and of where their 'power' is drawn comes from an OOC basis, yet that basis is not given to outsiders of Quel'Thalas that the Council would interact with, I personally simply refuse to accept that authority is then automatically supreme just because we're not Sin'Dorei. I was under the impression that something as hefty as a restriction on all races would be at least discussed on an OOC with said racial guilds/members, but that did not happen and that is what has irked me the most.

Ignoring each other is also not the solution, we're neighbors and should work alongside each other. With that said, the way the plague was released wasn't really responsible nor OOCly fair on the Sin'Dorei role-play base, it was a unilateral decision made that did not concern those who would be most affected: And that is the Sin'Dorei. Blanket banning the Forsaken from entering Silvermoon was also a unilateral decision and therein lies my problem with it.

Kristeas consulted me with this, and I will explain why I agreed with the measure.

It's because it creates RP. Your character has a view on this, and he may agree or disagree. He can resolve to an emergencymeeting(Political RP), he can show up with a small army of Horde soldiers(Military)...

Sin Belore have IC rules of behaviour... but they state that: "They can still be broken". Ofcourse, you will find repercussions...

But that's RP.

Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:

But the Council does have the authority to ban an entire people from entering it's land.

Just a little side point, when this happened I was really surprised to find that people put themselves in a position where they control an entire nation. In my opinion such should be avoided and left over for the one(s) that actually is(are) in the position to make such decisions (Such as Lor'themar), even though there won't be any response from said character(s). It's a touchy topic and has massive effects on not only the lore made by the player base, but also that of Blizzard's lore. Would Lor'themar really allow such a thing? How would Sylvanas and the rest of the Horde have replied to it? Etc.

The alternative was to have individuals and gangs go around Silvermoon in a more aggressive fashion, kicking out the forsaken, and then from the Belf side not do anything about that.

In this case there was some time spend poking Blood Elves to see what the thoughts and feelings were

As for what Lor'themar would and wouldn't do, should we really settle for roleplay where the only way for the Blood Elves to fight along the Forsaken has to be through the Forsaken blackmailing/forcing the Blood Elves. The only friendly relationships I know about between Blood Elves and Forsaken was in TBC. As for what's happened IC, the last years haven't been exactly 100% friendly either.

There are more options to choose from, and it's not as straight forward as you've put it. The amount of guards patrolling could be increased, you could ask the Forsaken arriving the city what their business there is, searched them and so on. The playerbase shouldn't be viewed as the race as a whole, but as a fraction of it. At peak times there are 30 players online in Silvermoon, should that really portray and shape the decisions of the entire race? If a few small groups quarrel a bit that should be kept on a more personal level. I myself will atleast not recognize these decisions. The impact it has is too great.

Abolish the council, stop trying to be Stormwind, etc.

Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:There are more options to choose from, and it's not as straight forward as you've put it. The amount of guards patrolling could be increased, you could ask the Forsaken arriving the city what their business there is, searched them and so on. The playerbase shouldn't be viewed as the race as a whole, but as a fraction of it. At peak times there are 30 players online in Silvermoon, should that really portray and shape the decisions of the entire race? If a few small groups quarrel a bit that should be kept on a more personal level. I myself will atleast not recognize these decisions.

"Increasing guards and patrols" are nice words, but without the people to back it up with, it sounds very empty to me.

The words used during the initial event were "requested and encouraged". Nothing like "In the name of the Regent-Lord" was ever used if I remember right. There was never anything said about a ban. What was announced was the intent of a group of players wich should, based on talks, have some people that can act out that intent.

I'd liken that to an announcement that all shady warlock found snooping around house X will be taken into custody because crime y that very likely was done by a shady warlock.

When you say that Forsaken aren't allowed in and that they need to come to you for a pass then that really does seem like a decision made for an entire nation, not just by and for a small group.

without the people to back it up with, it sounds very empty to me.

You don't need to have it 100% represented ingame. Once I found myself without the time and opportunity to hold an event ingame, and do you know what I did? I wrote an IC story about it on our forum one day ahead of when it was supposed to occur, and let people act upon it in their own way. Fantasy plays a key role in roleplaying.
You may say that not all would see it, but it could be spread by the tongue and if they held any interest in your decisions and recognized them then they'd very likely check them out upon hearing of it.

Forgive me, but is this out of principle that people specifically weren't individually involved in the decision making process, or just because it affects you so massively as an RPer that you must take a moral stand?

Forsaken do bad. Forsaken get smack on wrist. Forsaken watched for a bit. Forsaken largely unaffected. Forsaken not care.

If there was a geniune reason as to these complaints then I'd sympathise. If your undead RP relies so heavily on the magic based civillisation of Silvermoon, then I'd also sympathise, but it doesn't.

To me, it seems like what happens if a Child sees someone else playing with a toy. It's not something big in your world, it's only because it tangentially involves you that a large fuss has been kicked up about it.

This 'block' on Forsaken RPers was just a handwave by the council to make it seem like action was being taken against a terrorist attack. All any Forsaken had to do was rock up, pretend to have a pass if questioned, then move on. I doubt anyone even did any 'pass checking' anyway.

I could go into the finer points of omniscience and diplomatic powers but I'm speaking to the RPers rather than the characters here, and I'm telling you to cool your jets. There's no need for such aggro OOC for something that doesn't affect you, or those around you.

You can't expect to be able to banish every single member of a specific race or class. If for no other reason than that it's impossible to enforce, and many RPers would have no clue about the announcement. Plus OOCers will ignore it outright, which serves to break the suspension of disbelief. So not only does it cause drama, but it's largely ineffective.

Plus, it's rather simplistic, IMO. You might think, "increased guards and patrols," to be empty, but I find stuff like that enables you to give an appearance of heightened security without greatly infringing on people's RP. You can be creative and find ways to make it feel like security is tightened, without forcing people to be excluded as a result of it. IMO, the "aura" is what's important, not actually restricting people on an OOC level.

Regular propaganda posters discriminating and targeting members of X (Forsaken in this case), requiring members of X to carry registration papers on them at all times (which can be simply emoted, no need for a complicated registration process), harassing the occasional member of X if you see them and making sure they have their papers on them, targeting citizens that aren't members of X if they show any kind of sympathy towards X, and so on, all serve to expand RP without greatly infringing on it.

Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:When you say that Forsaken aren't allowed in and that they need to come to you for a pass then that really does seem like a decision made for an entire nation, not just by and for a small group.

Obviously nothing would have been done if it had only been a small group, I had enough positive confirmation by Blood Elves to go ahead with it. I try not to do things without the possibility of also backing it up.

That no Blood Elves spoke up against it and there were forsaken that played along with it (and unless appearance deceive, quite happily) do indicate that the the road taken was not a complete mistake.

I am quite open to comments, and will most likely incorporate a few new ideas, but I would prefer it is given in a usable format.
Using the event of the group you have issues with to loudly complain in several (ic and ooc) channels two weeks after it was done on the night that it's being stopped is strange, sudden brainfarts or not.

Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:

without the people to back it up with, it sounds very empty to me.

You don't need to have it 100% represented ingame. Once I found myself without the time and opportunity to hold an event ingame, and do you know what I did? I wrote an IC story about it on our forum one day ahead of when it was supposed to occur, and let people act upon it in their own way. Fantasy plays a key role in roleplaying.
You may say that not all would see it, but it could be spread by the tongue and if they held any interest in your decisions and recognized them then they'd very likely check them out upon hearing of it.

I don't have the confidence for that at the moment. If there is something that might be fun, but can't be sure that a minimum number of players will come to, then I'd rather move on to something with a higher chance of activity.


Edit: @Aelrath, pass checking.
Passes are checked, but anyone could get one. It was a check measure to see who is inside. Forsaken that don't want people to know that they are inside Silvermoon are a tad suspicious, aren't they?

Edit 2: @ Drustai.
Banishing them might be unrealistic. But we can sure try to remove as many suspicious people from Silvermoon as we can. Those don't have to be strictly the same thing.

Forgive me Kris as I can't see what the state is in Silvermoon, but 3-4 months ago the Guard was struggling to keep a stable player base.

With Aladras and Myself gone, I don't know who, if anyone, is still recruiting and keeping the streets patrolled. Tiff was struggling for time online last I checked and Starri had a bunch of other characters to play. Farstriders have disappeared, and Sin Belore have their WPvP commitments and... Sin Belore...y stuff.

Who the bloody hell is going around checking for passes? Do we even have the manpower for that?

When I struggle to conceive that we have the manpower to check for passes, it is a bit of a laughing matter when people suggest propoganda, harassment, and posters when we are (or used to) struggling to keep a single guard on the streets.

Edit: My England are fail today.

I don't care much for it on a personal level, but it has a large effect upon Blizzard made lore. Instead of keeping it all on a smaller scale a decision has been made that would demand response by very high up characters (Lor'themar, Sylvanas and so on). I do however believe that if said high up characters were capable (Well, they're not, simply because they're not played characters) of responding to it it'd have a large effect upon the lore, community and so on. Simply because it cannot be pulled off in a sensible way I voice my opinion on the case.

Simply because the player base itself cares little for it the fact that the race as a whole (Which isn't played) very likely would care a lot for it remains. It's too large scaled.

I had enough positive confirmation by Blood Elves to go ahead with it.

As I stated earlier said Blood Elves (the played ones) are only a small fraction of the race as a whole, and for that reason wide scale decisions should be avoided.

I'd rather move on to something with a higher chance of activity.

Well, if they don't care enough to check it out that's their choice and those interested can do it. That way it's not forced upon them either.


And what Drustai said.

Aelrath wrote:
When I struggle to conceive that we have the manpower to check for passes, it is a bit of a laughing manner when people suggest propoganda, harassment, and posters when we used to struggle keeping a single guard on the streets.

With the lack of people, some that I could have had line up not being able to make it, I got to venture out myself to check passes and ooc poke forsaken I found around that looked unlikely to know about current events.

One one hand activites are a nice way to attract blood elves, but blood elves are needed to get activities
So might aswell start with one elf, rp was had to it was succesfull.

On the other hand it means it should have been plenty easy to sneak around the "requests and encouragements", I didn't think it was necessary to mention that if the forsaken sneaks can't be seen/found, then they can't be properly encouraged. That could go a number of ways. The hoped ways didn't happen, but rp was done, so I suppose it's somewhat of a succes.

Edit: @ Gor'Thrak Frosthowl
Considering Forsaken have threatened Blood Elf children, left Blood Elves in the middle of fights and the Blood Elves have had to defend Forsaken lands for the Forsaken, all without any reprecautions up untill now, I think there's some karma (im)balance for somewhat escalated measures. As for what Factions Leaders would and wouldn't do, that's a long discussion. Same with the players vs. "actual numbers of people", if those (and the part about Faction Leader) were supreme, we'd never do anything out of the ordinary, freedoms are taken everywhere, so that's a long discussion aswell.

Considering that Lor'themar had to exile his own people to prevent the Quel'dorei and Sin'dorei coming to a fight, I don't believe he'd find it too rash to temporarily ban open commerce of a race unless tightly controlled by his subjects and checked by his organisations (Magisters/Knights/Farstriders/Army).

It's not a judgement call by Lor'themar, it's not too much of a drastic step that it would be something that he himself would have to implement.

It's not a ban on Forsaken as a whole and it's not even something that would be cause for concern in an NPC's eyes. Heck, if anything it could have been a lot worse for the Forsaken considering the Kor'Kron still being a presence in Undercity. Tighter restrictions are the least of their worries when they start throwing their poisons around.

Forsaken have to apply for a pass to Silvermoon, to have luxury visits from what I've seen. Dignitaries such as ambassadors or Horde-Related officials would be exceptions to this rule. Common sense prevailing, nothing changes whereas the Horde are concerned, and only luxury non-mission critical visits are restricted.

If the order needs to be changed, or refined to reflect this sort of common sense thinking then let it be done, but it reeks of extra work for the sake of nitpicking. Fiddling whilst Rome burns.

Edit: My England are really bad today.

As for what Factions Leaders would and wouldn't do, that's a long discussion.

Which is a lot of what I'm getting at, it should be avoided for that very reason.

Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:

As for what Factions Leaders would and wouldn't do, that's a long discussion.

Which is a lot of what I'm getting at, it should be avoided for that very reason.

If we shouldn't get involved in things that in some way involve a faction leader, then we'd have to move all rp-pvp efforts to private efforts, nothing on behalf of the horde or the alliance. Clans that aren't under the Warchiefs command, but not enough of a risk to warrant force on his behalf, rich nobles that hire mercenaries so they can fight for his bragging rights.

Edit: *points at character sheets* under such regulations, Sin Belore would have to be outlaws or mercenaries.

Considering Forsaken have threatened Blood Elf children

I feel like you're talking about Antistia.

Antistia wrote:

Considering Forsaken have threatened Blood Elf children

I feel like you're talking about Antistia.

All forsaken are equal, but some forsaken are more memorable.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:

Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:

As for what Factions Leaders would and wouldn't do, that's a long discussion.

Which is a lot of what I'm getting at, it should be avoided for that very reason.

If we shouldn't get involved in things that in some way involve a faction leader, then we'd have to move all rp-pvp efforts to private efforts, nothing on behalf of the horde or the alliance. Clans that aren't under the Warchiefs command, but not enough of a risk to warrant force on his behalf, rich nobles that hire mercenaries so they can fight for his bragging rights.

Edit: *points at character sheets* under such regulations, Sin Belore would have to be outlaws or mercenaries.

It is rather rare that faction leaders themselves deal with battles, there are many regiments and military forces around. There's also a difference between that and things that may change the structure of entire races.