Re: Rp or PVP gear discussion thread

[Raelo/Lucanor]

anything else is... ... ... ... a mess of arguments about realism in a Fantasy Universe.

Ah, the 'realism in fantasy' argument, a very popular one, and with reason. It sounds very logical after all. But what people tend to forget is that realism or believability are in fact very important in stories, including stories in fantasy worlds. The creator of the world can at the start stretch realism really far, true, but after he has set the new 'rules of realism' (like: magic exists, it works like this, there are orcs and dwarves, etc.) he has to stick with it. The public is willing to accept the new reality, as long as he is able to stretch his imagination enough to believe it. If the creator suddenly decides to go against his own rules, the public will not be able to keep 'believing' in it, and it will lose its interest in the story. How often haven't we heard that a movie character has to be played 'believable', even though everyone knows it's an actor before a camera following a script? Don't we roleplayers condemn vampire rpers and godemoters because they are violating our sense of believability in this alternative world with its own set of 'basic rules of realism'?
The kind of rp battle we are here talking about is the rp-pvp that is part of our larger storylines in our rp. We have an IC reason to be there, and to fight each other, and we are taking the results of the battle in our future rp. But what I notice is that the details of the battle itself are barely ever taken into account. No one will ever mention the details of the battle, no one will care to use his character to fight like the character would ICly, barely will the officers decide on tactical movements and shout commands to their soldiers instead of letting them run at each other at will. Why? Because the way our rppvp battles are mostly fought violates our believability, and we have to pvp instead of rp because we will otherwise be roflpwnd by some idiot bladestorming through you in full-pvp. We all like rp, and we want to tell a story with it even though we do not know the ending of it beforehand. Why not continue telling the story on such an important part of it, the battle? If we take easy on each other and instead of using all of our abilities to kill each other asap, we might have time to be IC during the battle, we could have tactical movements, retreats, fighting in lines. I think you will like it more than you claim you will, if you really like rp. Why not give it a shot, instead of using easy arguments like the 'realism in fantasy lol' one and acting like I'm crazy for disagreeing with you?

[Kozgugore Feraleye]

We've had the "no corpserunning in combat" rule in plenty of battles before. It would allow for a fairer chance to make the fight come to and end, because at certain locations, a certain faction would have a graveyard far closer to the battlefield than the other one.

The thing is, where there are different locations, factions, RP reasons, circumstances, anything, there can be different rules to all of it. In this case, we're talking about using RP gear for waging war, and trying to give a bit more of an RP twist to all of it. I suppose it's up to the people themselves to decide whether or not they want to give the system a try, but in the past, it has never hurt to try out something new. A lot of the stuff that happens in OotRB, for example, has been the result of a lot of experiments and trails and errors.

[Krogon Devilstep]

anything else is... ... ... ... a mess of arguments about realism in a Fantasy Universe.

Ah, the 'realism in fantasy' argument, a very popular one, and with reason. It sounds very logical after all. But what people tend to forget is that realism or believability are in fact very important in stories, including stories in fantasy worlds. The creator of the world can at the start stretch realism really far, true, but after he has set the new 'rules of realism' (like: magic exists, it works like this, there are orcs and dwarves, etc.) he has to stick with it. The public is willing to accept the new reality, as long as he is able to stretch his imagination enough to believe it. If the creator suddenly decides to go against his own rules, the public will not be able to keep 'believing' in it, and it will lose its interest in the story. How often haven't we heard that a movie character has to be played 'believable', even though everyone knows it's an actor before a camera following a script? Don't we roleplayers condemn vampire rpers and godemoters because they are violating our sense of believability in this alternative world with its own set of 'basic rules of realism'?
The kind of rp battle we are here talking about is the rp-pvp that is part of our larger storylines in our rp. We have an IC reason to be there, and to fight each other, and we are taking the results of the battle in our future rp. But what I notice is that the details of the battle itself are barely ever taken into account. No one will ever mention the details of the battle, no one will care to use his character to fight like the character would ICly, barely will the officers decide on tactical movements and shout commands to their soldiers instead of letting them run at each other at will. Why? Because the way our rppvp battles are mostly fought violates our believability, and we have to pvp instead of rp because we will otherwise be roflpwnd by some idiot bladestorming through you in full-pvp. We all like rp, and we want to tell a story with it even though we do not know the ending of it beforehand. Why not continue telling the story on such an important part of it, the battle? If we take easy on each other and instead of using all of our abilities to kill each other asap, we might have time to be IC during the battle, we could have tactical movements, retreats, fighting in lines. I think you will like it more than you claim you will, if you really like rp. Why not give it a shot, instead of using easy arguments like the 'realism in fantasy lol' one and acting like I'm crazy for disagreeing with you?

Again, all i'm seeing is "i cant hack pvp, so i dumb the rules down for my lazyness" ... try dodging Bladestorm, i hear blink and Iceblock helps.

[Zhakiri]

Because, Krogon, it isn't W-PvP he is looking for it is cross-faction RP.

PvP tactics, skills and gear doesn't come into it.

[Krogon Devilstep]

then god almighty dont call it pvp so i can stay far far away from it.

its crap like this thats killing World-pvp.

[Nayan]

Krogon, mind using a better language towards other people's wants and views?

[Raelo/Lucanor]

Again, all i'm seeing is "i cant hack pvp, so i dumb the rules down for my lazyness" ... try dodging Bladestorm, i hear blink and Iceblock helps.

I'd appreciate it if you respond to my arguments instead of trying to offend me, thank you.

[Wubeh]

They are not pvping, they are roleplaying actual pvp combat.

Make your own Wpvp if you dont like it, its not hard to grab afew buddies and go stomp SW/IF, seems like thats the kind of pvp you are after, stomping bad people with your leetuberhax gear and skill(Warriorlol).

[Lini]

Seeing as this is quickly devolving into ad hominem attacks, I'd like to point out that arguments such as

we have to pvp instead of rp because we will otherwise be roflpwnd by some idiot bladestorming through you in full-pvp

are hardly helping to make anyone's point seeing as in an organized w-pvp event both sides tend to be roleplayers.

As for my opinion? The kind of w-pvp with everyone wearing whatever they want and using whatever abilities they want has been working for the past...uh...five years. Events had pvp, events had rp, events had commanders shouting orders, events had moving frontlines, tactical withdrawals, ambushes and other maneuvers.

I may just be an old fart who hasn't been doing anything remotely active on this realm for a long while but I still remember several rp-pvp battles with a clear story and progression, all that could be derived simply from the flow of battle. Auto attacking and enforced gear restrictions don't cut it for me.

So...after all these years, what broke the working formula? And no, pvp gear isn't going to be an aswer I'm willing to accept. It's very easy to get without taking even a single step into the arenas.

[Krogon Devilstep]

Seeing as this is quickly devolving into ad hominem attacks, I'd like to point out that arguments such as

we have to pvp instead of rp because we will otherwise be roflpwnd by some idiot bladestorming through you in full-pvp

are hardly helping to make anyone's point seeing as in an organized w-pvp event both sides tend to be roleplayers.

As for my opinion? The kind of w-pvp with everyone wearing whatever they want and using whatever abilities they want has been working for the past...uh...five years. Events had pvp, events had rp, events had commanders shouting orders, events had moving frontlines, tactical withdrawals, ambushes and other maneuvers.

I may just be an old fart who hasn't been doing anything remotely active on this realm for a long while but I still remember several rp-pvp battles with a clear story and progression, all that could be derived simply from the flow of battle. Auto attacking and enforced gear restrictions don't cut it for me.

So...after all these years, what broke the working formula? And no, pvp gear isn't going to be an aswer I'm willing to accept. It's very easy to get without taking even a single step into the arenas.

^ that, is the thread. and Lini, like i've been saying, lazy people broke the formula.

[Raelo/Lucanor]

Seeing as this is quickly devolving into ad hominem attacks, I'd like to point out that arguments such as

we have to pvp instead of rp because we will otherwise be roflpwnd by some idiot bladestorming through you in full-pvp

are hardly helping to make anyone's point seeing as in an organized w-pvp event both sides tend to be roleplayers.

Thank you for pointing that out, as it may in fact sound like a personal attack on Krogon, but it was not intended as such. It was intended as a general remark, and I kept using the bladestorm exemple I've been using without realising what it sounds like. My apologies for the confusion.

[Geldar]

So...after all these years, what broke the working formula?

Lazy people who have no clue, do not wish to learn, do not wish to even grind towards higher levels, or even basic gear with which to fight and thus they enforce in some cases a ruleset that suits them.

Of course rping a pvp battle as the idea with the auto-attacking is pretty fun when it serves its purpose, but dear god that isnt rp-pvp! Besides, for so many years we`ve kept true to two simple rules:

1) No Corpse Camping.
2) No Corpse Running.

Everything works perfectly when there is good communication between the sides, no matter how many ROFLSTORMING WARRIORS there are, dumbing down the rules is no excuse for poor performance on the field, and honestly while fighting against multiple enemies on a open frontline, i personally would not care if the player besides me or against me has or does not have any skill, war is war be it even in a fantasy setting. Aslong as the organisers do their job, everything will and should run smoothly, be it with RP, or full PvP gear or even gear of own choice. Let me remind you of Grizzly hills, that was RP PvP. One hour constant slaughter without end with both sides not getting the chance to win over the other, because it was organised well, the numbers were even and yeah. You get the idea..



Also, keep it Civil. If you have any insults do take them ingame or use the PM function. We will happily delete any offensive posts which contain insults and personal attacks.

[Nayan]

They are not pvping, they are roleplaying actual pvp combat.

/thread

When people realise it doesn't bloody matter, we'll see less qq from both sides ;p

[avaiel]

Apologies if there's any bad grammar in my post. I'm not natively English

I mostly only lurk on this forum, but this topic caught my interest.

I have never really partaken in much role-playing other than the casual “hello give me a drink” at a bar or some such. Whether this has an influence on my point of view I cannot say. Although from what I have observed from reading here, there seems to be two recurring argument forms:

1. Individualistic freedom: Other people should not be able to decide whether one thing is In-character or not. All types of gear are game.
   
2. Everyone should be equal: Some guidelines need to be implemented in order for everyone to have an equal chance at winning or contributing.
   

Now, the counter argument against the first point of view (1) is that everyone should be allowed to have fun at an event. This becomes a problem as many role-players chose gear for aesthetic reasons, as it offers more immersion (?)

This is not the issue in itself. The issue is rather that World of Warcraft in its game mechanics is based heavily on gear and the benefits it provides. So even if wearing pvp gear can be considered in-character, there will always be an underlying suspicion that the choice was made for the benefit of the stats, and not for its grizzly aesthetics looks and thus you undermine the sense of justice on the field, as the tide of the battle gets decided by gear quality and the amount of time spent on pvp.

The second argument is based on the idea that this, being an organized event, should transcend the game-mechanics, offering all the partaking players a chance at contributing to a battle. Regardless of whether or not this is a romanticized idealistic idea of how a battle should be (in a game) it does hold some mirth as the idea of attending this battle is not getting honor, or working towards any goal for your character profile. Rather, the idea is to be a participant in a pre-organized event to get some fighting into role-playing.

The counter to this, from the individualistic approach is that all gear in the game, is equally available to everyone. Thus it is fair to use any tool at my immediate disposal to help my side turning the tide. Laying down unwritten rules undermines not only the freedom of choice for a character, but also the effort from acquiring the pvp gear which allows a character to excel over others.

Both sides have very valid points, and it is impossible to discern a right or wrong in this case as the opinions are formed largely on different values. Indeed, this even seems to take its roots all the way back to whether levels can or cannot be used as indicators for in-character battle-prowess.

Now seeing as there is no right or wrong to this, I believe that the key is this: consensus
Consensus and communication could solve this dispute, and I am not the first to state it in this thread. Forming some guidelines previous to the event will make it clear for everyone what terms they are playing under. This goes against the approach of the individual freedom, but it is a needed evil because of one key difference between this event, and normal PvP: Organization. Since this is an organized event, there should be clear-cut guidelines for every participant so a sense of fairness can ensue.

Here are a few of the suggestions I can make, which I believe to be “fair” as fairness seems to be at the core of the difference of opinions:

• Prior to every event, decide on a gear cap: Give players a choice to chose from gear between levels 40-60 for example, or even 70-80. This would ensure that nobody would be too widely spread on their gear-levels while still allowing room to compose an aesthetically pleasing look. This should be done because, no matter how much you try to transcend game-mechanics via. immersion you are still bound by it.
  
• Prior to every event, inform each other of the number of participants from your side: Be sure to have balanced numbers, unless of course the event calls for it differently. As the organizer, you may be forced to go find some more people, or worse cut someone loose to ensure the event progresses mostly as you had planned.
  
• Prior to the event, put down a level cap for your players. Again, we are bound by the game-mechanics no matter what we do. If you do decide to bring along a lower leveled player, accept that it will have an effect on the outcome.
  

These are just a couple of suggestions to what could make the experience more pleasant for everyone. It may seem that these limitations are put in place to cater to the less pvp-oriented players, but I think of it more as guidelines to ensure that both parties can participate without a sense of unfairness. After all, the guidelines you will follow will ultimately be laid down by the organizer, but you are free not to participate if you don’t agree.

In summation: I believe that the key is to communicate prior to any event. Set up a standard everyone participating should abide by and then have fun. The standard may in some cases even be to bring pvp gear and go all out, that depends on the organizers.

[(Goggy) - Exilius]

In summation: I believe that the key is to communicate prior to any event. Set up a standard everyone participating should abide by and then have fun. The standard may in some cases even be to bring pvp gear and go all out, that depends on the organizers.

Thank you, D:

[avaiel]

In summation: I believe that the key is to communicate prior to any event. Set up a standard everyone participating should abide by and then have fun. The standard may in some cases even be to bring pvp gear and go all out, that depends on the organizers.

Thank you, D:

What for?

[Jayse]

I'll usually Rp pvp in my Rp set and pick my targets carefully. Afterall Jay doesnt fight by running into the battle headlong he'll look for an occupied/weaker opponent. If he get's knocked out or incapped in the battle then that's what happens. I just have to play with a little more tact then usual.

War is hell, and has never been so much fun!

[Guest]

And Rasonal and Gorge picked out Jay' as the weaker target and gang'banged him in Silverpine.

Was great fun, since Gorge's rp gear pretty much equalled his lvling gear.

[(Goggy) - Exilius]

Rp gear ftw, those who know me, or have faced me Horseman In Duskwood, know my ideals.

[Krogon Devilstep]

i think Geldar said it all.

Hot picture by the way... good battle too!

[(Goggy) - Exilius]

Course it was good, Victory for the Horde! Shame we didn't manage to get the realm crash again though. :3

[Geldar]

Course it was good, Victory for the Horde! Shame we didn't manage to get the realm crash again though. :3

Alliance won on both days, unfortunatly on the 2nd it was because of OOCers tagging along the main group and camping the ressers who in turn left. Get your facts right, infact, it was a fun anniversery war so i dont care who won :p

[Jayse]

And Rasonal and Gorge picked out Jay' as the weaker target and gang'banged him in Silverpine.

Was great fun, since Gorge's rp gear pretty much equalled his lvling gear.

*grins* aye, i'll be honest I wasn't actually expecting that attack so soon, I was halfway rolling a smoke and saw the stunlock.. But yea, good times.

[Raelo/Lucanor]

So...after all these years, what broke the working formula?

Lazy people who have no clue, do not wish to learn, do not wish to even grind towards higher levels, or even basic gear with which to fight and thus they enforce in some cases a ruleset that suits them.

Of course rping a pvp battle as the idea with the auto-attacking is pretty fun when it serves its purpose, but dear god that isnt rp-pvp! Besides, for so many years we`ve kept true to two simple rules:

1) No Corpse Camping.
2) No Corpse Running.

Everything works perfectly when there is good communication between the sides, no matter how many ROFLSTORMING WARRIORS there are, dumbing down the rules is no excuse for poor performance on the field, and honestly while fighting against multiple enemies on a open frontline, i personally would not care if the player besides me or against me has or does not have any skill, war is war be it even in a fantasy setting. Aslong as the organisers do their job, everything will and should run smoothly, be it with RP, or full PvP gear or even gear of own choice. Let me remind you of Grizzly hills, that was RP PvP. One hour constant slaughter without end with both sides not getting the chance to win over the other, because it was organised well, the numbers were even and yeah. You get the idea..

Geldar, before telling everyone to keep it civil you should realise that calling people lazy and assuming they 'dumb down rules' to compensate for poor performance is biased and even mildly insulting, especially since several people have already shown in this thread there are far better motives. Also, I can't really remember any case of me or anyone else saying that the kind of wpvp you mention isn't fun. However, that isn't excluding at all that trying to make battles a bit more IC can't be fun as well. I still think that the most fun would be to combine it; first rp a battle, then all go OOC, put on pvp gear and have some of that wpvp you remember so fondly.

[Krogon Devilstep]

i fail to see exactly what was so out of character about previous battles, gear, levels, skills and anything else has never mattered before, nor do they define if we are out of character.

soldiers follow orders, commanders give orders, we use the skills given to us that are available to the classess we chose. things are done in a civil manner with good communication and Tactics are involved.

1) Formations
2) Terrain
3) Manouvers.

whats so out of character? is the immersion in this pixelated game not enough? i'm sorry muspel, but i just cant understand why you label anything remotely challenging as 'ooc'.

it is only just a game <_>'

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