Thoughts on rolls in emote fighting

/rnd 100-100
/e easily snaps your neck.
Problem solved!

Well... I like to see rolls as the strength/perfection/whatever you put behind a move. For example, I could roll to see if Pierre's pansy swing of his fist actually has a shot of being within arm range of his target. But that same roll could denote the classy perfection of a veteran landing his plated gauntlet in a thug's groin.

So.. basically a roll for me is "how well did his intention translate into action". At all times this approach respects one's character. A 100 roll for Pierre could be a lucky punch, but it's still a weak and feeble effort. It's just "the best shot he'll ever make in his life".

This does mean that PlayerA's roll of 100 doesn't necessarily outclass PlayerB's defense roll of 40. It just adds a random characteristic, free for interpretation, that adds more surprise and realism than "X swings his blade, really, really, really well, with like, very much class demonstrating his years and years of experience... not to mention the addition of strength! Yeah! Lots and lots of strength."

Annie wrote:To some extent I'm wondering if anyone read my post, but ah well xD

I'm not saying 'hey we should all use rolls.' I understand that emote fighting is a contentious subject and a great matter of personal preference. That's good. It's not like there's a 'right way' and as Thelos said, it's all about respect and good sense anyway.

But I just wanted to raise the possibility that luck plays a bigger factor in fights than we usually care to admit. We think 'hm well my character is about x strong/good/fast and your character is y' and then go from there. Yet, within reason, a weaker opponent can beat a stronger opponent by luck and circumstance.

How many of us think (or are willing) to have our characters make bad mistakes in a fight, or allow the other person to get a lucky opening?

Personally rolls are fine for tournies, like the steel-boot or that joust that braiden had a couple of months back, because it just forces progression. since we've all been there that a five minute fight can take up to an hour of emoting..

And I agree with your point that everyone Should have The Fighter's chance. But to me, that chance shouldn't come from a roll. but from an inventive way of attacking towards which your character wasn't prepared for. Rolling, hampers ingenuity in my opinion to find ways around the weaknesses/strenghts of your opponent.

ofcourse it still means you need to be willing to lose, but its the same with rolling.

I agree with Seik and Quin, i tend to stay away from emote fights in general as they usually end up in some disagreement.

I dont think the answer is to avoid RP combat just out of fear of drama, that will lead to less combat. Better you take it as an oppotunity to try and teach.

Lexgrad wrote:I dont think the answer is to avoid RP combat just out of fear of drama, that will lead to less combat. Better you take it as an oppotunity to try and teach.

Indeed, before wise it's good to send a whisper and get to know there character...to avoid the usual Emote fight dragging on forever

Hmm.. well.. I do feel we are straying from Annie's original post. It's hard to discuss emote fighting without going deeper on the subject of drama, I suppose.
But I do agree with Annie in some respects. By leaving things to chance alone, we may perhaps make things "equal for all" but we are loosing the very attributes of our characters that make our roleplay interesting.

This issue isn't restricted to emote fighting and rolls alone. Quite often, we impose rules or systems built to avoid drama instead of them promoting roleplay.

I'd like to agree with Annie that the roll system, for all its benefits, is an overcompensation where the real price we pay is the very roleplay we try to save with it. Never the less, I thing rolls have their place. Some situations really could go either way. And they have a practical edge:
- Fair
- Clear
- Fast
3 attributes that "pure" emote fights at a larger scale often miss.

But whenever the scale of the fights permits it, I just fall back on plain emotes. As addressed before, I'll privately use rolls for myself sometimes, but only to add a little randomness to my own roleplay and to challenge myself as a roleplayer by not retaining full control over my character.

If you're character is weak and you think the roll system would benefit you too much, just enact some sort of penalty, maybe only roll from 1-50 or deduct 30 points or however much from your rolls

I cant say I've ever had too much drama or unfairness in emote fights to call for a roll to be needed

For example. My rogue Annie won the tournament. This was unlikely, considering she was facing a handsomely geared hunter, an elegant druid, and a pyromancer. Yet the rolls forced the combatants to find a reason why each person should do better or worse than the other -- and, being forced into a form, sometimes our RP was the better for it. I mean, when else when you actually want your character to win would you think to have a sudden cut one of your arteries? Or allow yourself to be bashed in the temple and knocked out?

Use proper term god dammit! Skarain is -far- from being a mage.

My criminal rogue is actually good at fighting! Ledgic's trained her well. I was just saying that purely objectively, she was not better than everyone else, and won through luck - not blind crazy luck, but reasonable luck

Lucky yeh. Throwing knife trough the hand limits a little the spellcasting you can pull off . But i enjoyed every moment of it.

But to return to the topic....
I personally use rolls sometimes (rarely, but sometimes) to see the seriousness of wounds, would it be only a scratch, and would the wound limit the usage of her tricks.

Going by pure emote is most enjoyable, as then i can actually take her strengths, weaknesses and tricks into action. If both players acknowledge "What can i do? What i can't do? What do i do the best?" leads to very different fights and results. Skarain is stronges at range (obviously) as then she can cast spells freely. She can not translocate (blink) so she will attempt to incinerate whatever is coming her way before it get to melee range. She is not defenseless in melee, having an armor spell, blastwaves, decent agility (from her time as a thief in gilneas) and several other nasty tricks. However she will tire up very fast if forced to fight in melee ranged.

And regardless of her being skilled in combat i dont enjoy playing overpowered. I will take hits and wounds that will limit her performance.

First off, I always feel very strongly that combat should be limited to that allowed by the game mechanics. I do appreciate that it, to some extent stymies creativity but to me it feels a bit more authentic. I dislike the idea that another person can "beat" my character that I have spent a great deal of time running BG and Arena to gear while wearing their aestheticly pleasing RP gear.

My feeling is that if you are going to RP a character that is a skilled and seasoned fighter, then you should be able to "put your money where your mouth is" and gear and skill that player for the thing you are doing. If not then you accept that your player is going to get roundly panned on a regular basis, just like in real-life

But this may be just because I am a keen PvP'er.

But I digress.

All that said I think that in an Emote-fight type situation, rolls can give it some much needed structure. I also sort of reject the idea that using rolls is "unrealistic", the example given being that of the little Gnome versus the great big Draenei. Even a hopelessly outmatched opponent can have an element of luck in their fight.

Personally I think that Neressa's post contains a great little system for determining the outcome of fights. Ok it maybe introduces an unfair element of luck against a character that would be more likely to win but hey, shit happens, that's what makes life (even IC WoW life) so rich and interesting!

Ulf

Ulfrik wrote:First off, I always feel very strongly that combat should be limited to that allowed by the game mechanics. I do appreciate that it, to some extent stymies creativity but to me it feels a bit more authentic. I dislike the idea that another person can "beat" my character that I have spent a great deal of time running BG and Arena to gear while wearing their aestheticly pleasing RP gear.

My feeling is that if you are going to RP a character that is a skilled and seasoned fighter, then you should be able to "put your money where your mouth is" and gear and skill that player for the thing you are doing. If not then you accept that your player is going to get roundly panned on a regular basis, just like in real-life

But this may be just because I am a keen PvP'er.

But I digress.

All that said I think that in an Emote-fight type situation, rolls can give it some much needed structure. I also sort of reject the idea that using rolls is "unrealistic", the example given being that of the little Gnome versus the great big Draenei. Even a hopelessly outmatched opponent can have an element of luck in their fight.

Personally I think that Neressa's post contains a great little system for determining the outcome of fights. Ok it maybe introduces an unfair element of luck against a character that would be more likely to win but hey, shit happens, that's what makes life (even IC WoW life) so rich and interesting!

Ulf

Marry me.

Ulfrik wrote:First off, I always feel very strongly that combat should be limited to that allowed by the game mechanics. I do appreciate that it, to some extent stymies creativity but to me it feels a bit more authentic. I dislike the idea that another person can "beat" my character that I have spent a great deal of time running BG and Arena to gear while wearing their aestheticly pleasing RP gear.

My feeling is that if you are going to RP a character that is a skilled and seasoned fighter, then you should be able to "put your money where your mouth is" and gear and skill that player for the thing you are doing. If not then you accept that your player is going to get roundly panned on a regular basis, just like in real-life

But this may be just because I am a keen PvP'er.

But I digress.

All that said I think that in an Emote-fight type situation, rolls can give it some much needed structure. I also sort of reject the idea that using rolls is "unrealistic", the example given being that of the little Gnome versus the great big Draenei. Even a hopelessly outmatched opponent can have an element of luck in their fight.

Personally I think that Neressa's post contains a great little system for determining the outcome of fights. Ok it maybe introduces an unfair element of luck against a character that would be more likely to win but hey, shit happens, that's what makes life (even IC WoW life) so rich and interesting!

Ulf

Limiting combat to game mechanics is painfully limiting in itself. And bringing PVP/PVP Gear into an RP combat situation is moronic. RP is RP, and you shouldn't be forced to partake in an area of the game you have no interest in, just so you can have a skilled fighter.

Sorry Skarain D: I haven't really met your character yet, apart from that fight, nor do I know much about her!

And I agree with Led.

Skarain is lovely

Says the Dead man Skarain would gladly Incinerate
She is just darn pissed off on Lexgrad when he stated war with the blades, thus forcing Skarain to decide...learn a new kind of dark magic or stand next to your family.

And Annie i will pay a visit in the Smoking Blade at next time its open

Ledgic Caan wrote:

Ulfrik wrote:First off, I always feel very strongly that combat should be limited to that allowed by the game mechanics. I do appreciate that it, to some extent stymies creativity but to me it feels a bit more authentic. I dislike the idea that another person can "beat" my character that I have spent a great deal of time running BG and Arena to gear while wearing their aestheticly pleasing RP gear.

My feeling is that if you are going to RP a character that is a skilled and seasoned fighter, then you should be able to "put your money where your mouth is" and gear and skill that player for the thing you are doing. If not then you accept that your player is going to get roundly panned on a regular basis, just like in real-life

But this may be just because I am a keen PvP'er.

But I digress.

All that said I think that in an Emote-fight type situation, rolls can give it some much needed structure. I also sort of reject the idea that using rolls is "unrealistic", the example given being that of the little Gnome versus the great big Draenei. Even a hopelessly outmatched opponent can have an element of luck in their fight.

Personally I think that Neressa's post contains a great little system for determining the outcome of fights. Ok it maybe introduces an unfair element of luck against a character that would be more likely to win but hey, shit happens, that's what makes life (even IC WoW life) so rich and interesting!

Ulf

Limiting combat to game mechanics is painfully limiting in itself. And bringing PVP/PVP Gear into an RP combat situation is moronic. RP is RP, and you shouldn't be forced to partake in an area of the game you have no interest in, just so you can have a skilled fighter.

Ditto. This server and community is for RP, and -should- take priority over things like PvE and PvP. If someone who has spent a lot of time building their characters story, and creating a very deep and interesting persona instead of farming dailies and BG's, wants to RP a fight, why should they have to bow to the whims of someone who may be a full time raider with full high end gear and only a passing interest in RP. I'm not saying that people cant raid/pvp AND RP, but gameplay based on "who spent more time repeatedly thumping deathwing with a mallet" shouldn't affect RP

I consider all arenas, battlegrounds, instances and raids to be out of character. Thusly, the awesome gear you get through it would be out of character as well. It's a bit lame that someone who grinds battlegrounds and happens to occationally do RP would beat someone that has dedicated all their playtime to portraying a general and a strong fighter in an RP fight.

Rolling is an incredibly useful tool in fights. When fighting with strangers I usually just roll for myself, to see if my character will be successful in either aiming to hit someone or avoiding someone's attack. I put a number in my head which i think represents the chance of success fairly accurate.

The ideal way to use rolling in fights:
Use a referee. This person would look at the used emotes unbiased and OOC, and then either flat-out determine the outcome, or roll for it. This above else, promotes fairness. So, very simplified, you could end up with something like this:

1) Gnome [x] attempts to swing it's blade over Human [x]' left shoulder.
2) Human [x] attempts to raise his shield to counter the blow.
3) Referee makes a quick call taking the rest of the fight and other context into account, and decides the seasoned warrior needs to roll 30+/100 to make the block. This allows for a small margin of failure, which should always be present, but the most likely outcome is a succesfull block.
Defending party always makes the next emote, to set up the next situation to react to.
4) Human [x] has blocked the gnomes assault, and will now attempt to swing his body around and strike the gnome with his sword.
(( Notice the past tense in "has blocked". This is something that irrefutably happened. ))
5) Gnome [x]
6) Ref makes call.
7) Gnome [x]

Etc.

Unfortunately I've only been able to get people to do this twice, but both turned out to be brilliantly executed and very fair fights.
Sometimes, we just need a Dungeon Master

I really enjoy emote fighting like this, but I usually tend to steer away. Emote fighting tends to attract douche bags and idiots. Most of my characters don't like to fight anyway, Scuzy's the only one that would actually throw the first punch. Deli usually just gets hit and then cries in a corner. >_>

There seems to be a general opinion that RP and the other parts of the game should be mutually exclusive which is utter rubbish in my view. I have been Rp'ing AND pvp ing in this game since I started playing 4 years ago sometimes they intersect in really rewarding ways admittedly they rarely sit together well but it doesnt follow that you can't engage in both things equally.

Also, calling the idea of bringing Pvp gear into an rp situation "moronic" is not only completely missing the point of the personal opinion i was attempting to express but its also needlessly hostile.

I certainly don't look down on anyone for NOT wanting to grind up Pvp gear, I merely meant that for me it feels more authentic to tie the rp and the game mechanics together whenever possible.

Ulf

And that it fine, there are guilds like sunfury and cult of shadow who play that way

They always cause trouble for others in RP though.
Besides, high gear looks terrible.

I certainly don't look down on anyone for NOT wanting to grind up Pvp gear, I merely meant that for me it feels more authentic to tie the rp and the game mechanics together whenever possible.

You did, really. In saying that duels should be the way to RP fighting, you say that your char must always win against people who dont want to spend countless nights grinding for gear.

indeed this was the impresion i got as well your speach did imply that duals should be used mostly as an ic method good thow it is.. many spells and abilities cannot be used ic without looking silly and also lets throw in this senario

someone spends months in full time rp to show and prove that lets say.. there warrior is a master in war.. then a part time rp'er comes along who spends more time pvping and gear grinding and chalange to a dual.. the warrior with bigger ic history and moral standing in a sence would loose simply because he doesnt have the same level of gear its the same across the bord.. many full time rp'ers dont even make it to level 70 let alone 85

as a result a dual will be a splattering for the lower leveld player.. sadly duals would only make ic sence if both players were at equal level and with the apropiate gear to signify there experiance at there art, otherwise the dual will not be acurate as to the true potential outcome

Lyniath wrote:high gear looks terrible.

Not a problem anymore is it?

Delidah / Scuzy wrote:

Lyniath wrote:high gear looks terrible.

Not a problem anymore is it?

It is when a lot of my pirate sets included cloth... xD I haven't yet created a full-leather 'pirate-esque' look. It's all assassiny.

Lyniath wrote:They always cause trouble for others in RP though.
Besides, high gear looks terrible.

I certainly don't look down on anyone for NOT wanting to grind up Pvp gear, I merely meant that for me it feels more authentic to tie the rp and the game mechanics together whenever possible.

You did, really. In saying that duels should be the way to RP fighting, you say that your char must always win against people who dont want to spend countless nights grinding for gear.

What I said that I felt personally that that was an ideal situation. I then made a point of saying that it does limit creativity And that emote fighting was completely acceptable to me also.

Ulf

Lyniath wrote:They always cause trouble for others in RP though.
Besides, high gear looks terrible.

I certainly don't look down on anyone for NOT wanting to grind up Pvp gear, I merely meant that for me it feels more authentic to tie the rp and the game mechanics together whenever possible.

You did, really. In saying that duels should be the way to RP fighting, you say that your char must always win against people who dont want to spend countless nights grinding for gear.

And yet you're saying that spending an hour writing a back-ground story about the seasoning your fighter went through, is worth more then having a character that can actually fight.

which brings us back to the point of this thread;

does rolling hampers the ability of "seasoned fighters" to win fights, or does it give the proper fighting chance to everyone, because of the stupidity or ineffectiveness of the seasoned fighter's attacks.

while the other side of the emote fighting coin, is that everyone gets bogged down by ego's and an inability to see your own flaws and the want to win every fight because your char is just do damn awesome...

and then there's the third idea, where a fight can be resolved solely on the basis of your characters skill, which is dueling, but the draw-back of that is, that you're looking at potential gear differences and the OPnes of FOTM classes.

and the bottom line is that none of these systems are perfect, and none is better then other, they all have there drawbacks, they all have their bonuses, and imo they all have their place.

and starting to call opinions moronic or saying that your system is better then other people's and chiding them for it is really not the way to go.

then as a last note on the subject of Armour.

Armour is supposed to be effective, and it isn't supposed to look good perse,
so it's bloody realistic to use effective armour that looks like a queen in drag. *nods*
you can't both look cool and be awesume fighter also.

heck Amy has lost everyfight she has ever been in when caught in a dress, since her style depends on using her plate to deflect, and parry blows and getting cut everywhere doesn't really help..