Re: The book thread

by **Amaryl** Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:41 am

Muzjhath wrote:I call it that because I find the langauge with which it is written to be quite standard, nothing great. The plot is all in all rather simple. Big, yes, extremely deep, no. Just having a few hundred characters doesn't make something amazing.

Well, as much I agree with these observations, it was part of Jordan's biggest problem in the later books to just describe character after character of no importance. that it bogged down the tale, yes I agree. And I also agree that the language is rather standard, but then again 99% of Fantasy and especially High Fantasy, is exactly that, standard, not every-one has the poetic streak of Erikson (which has also been rather criticised, though I disagree) or the notion to write in slightly older english to help with the immersion like Martin.
but both those series aren't what I'd call High Fantasy, though MTotF slightly more then aSoIaF.

I mean, yes at the end of the Day WoT is a story about a farm-boy destined to save the world from the Big-Bad Evil, with a few friends and a few super duper awesome companions. Helped by prophecy and hidden heritages and power. But what makes this Tale, Better then other trite, is Character Development instead of Character progression. The character growth, in this tale is unequaled in all of High Fantasy, its more then just a guy becoming a great swordsman through a montage, or a boy becoming king, that's progression not growth. and even though some characters are getting more growth then others, All five two river kids "mature" throughout the series, some in unexpected ways, some things are very subtle, but its there. compared to other big series that have enamoured Teenagers like Goodkind and Eddings, where nothing ever changes.

And because of that and amongst the enormous amount of "meh" and "Crap" that comes out in this Genre, I think WoT deserves something more then "one of the 3/4 by far most overrated pieces of Fantasy"

Im not saying its great mind you, but I do think its the best piece of High-fantasy that's come out. (which I've read) and considering High-fantasy clichéd works is the genre that actually get publicity and is the most read fantasy sub-genre.

and lets be honest, what do you look for in Fantasy if not "Enjoyable" Very Happy

by **Muzjhath** Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:04 am

Well, I consider Goodkind above Jordan among the overrated list. And Eddings I've never touched and I doubt I ever will. From observations and tips I've gotten considering I never read him when I was 16, I've come to the understanding it' doubtful that I will enjoy his work.

Also, for High Fantasy I'll just say Memory, Sorrow, Thorn. I can't see it being anything else than High Fantasy and it so kicks WoTs arse.
I just need to reread it in english one day.

Also, almost every book I read I look for "enjoyable" in (so, not only fantasy). The reason I read very few Crime novels. But for example the reason I enjoyed "The Remains of the Day" was because the langauge used to write it was fucking MAGIC, not because the book itself was compelling.
Hell, I read a historical book about Gengis Khan for enjoyment (and intrest).
Also, the langauge used in much fantasy if you compare it with other genres that are widly read publicly (example those crime/police novels (most bought book type in english)) the langauge in often is far above the general.

by **Amaryl** Fri Dec 02, 2011 10:24 am

*cough* *cough* Dan Brown *Cough* *Cough* xD

Now, Simple sentences, easy to read, accessible, makes a book popular, I will agree, and thus can make it Highly rated, because a lot of people have read them. sure we can be snobbish and claim what the "masses" read and think is the greatest book ever, isn't really the real good stuff! since well! I have read this gem from 100.000 copies and Woah! this is the shit, that other piece is "Overrated". And I can't say I agree with that notion Anymore. I'm more curious to the reasons, why a person likes said book and what other books he reads for perspective.

But I believe we Got to the crux of the argument here:

Muzjath wrote:From observations and tips I've gotten considering I never read him when I was 16, I've come to the understanding it' doubtful that I will enjoy his work.

Also, back when I was 15/16 I saw the books as awesome amazing fantastic things.

Most High fantasy, I've read also during my teens, 14-17, and I loved it back then, when the concepts of the story, was more important to me then actual characters, bar from them being "Bad-ass" and for that, you needed the "Standard Language" since well, back then it was also "Magic"

But Just because you suddenly don't have the exact same Taste as Younger You. Millions of Teens, still think those books are the Shit, like you once did, and a lot of people remember what they loved about those books when they read them which and not with their current tastes, the impressions lasts that those books were ridiculously awesome.

Outgrowing something doesn't mean its suddenly overrated. its just... not for you Any more.

by **Eowale** Fri Dec 02, 2011 11:12 am

...So, worth reading or not? >_>

by **Muzjhath** Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:18 pm

The wheel of time is Defenatly worth reading. And Amaryl, the problem I have isn't with the teens hyping things (unless it's Twilight, vampires shouldn't fucking sparkle). It's when people are 25-35 years old and refuse to see that half the love for the series is Nostalgia.
Hell, I still find parts of WoT to be really amazing, at the same time that I find the whole work to be overrated (conflicted, I know. But humans are complicated).

Also, about the langauge. As long as it is modern it's not hard to read when it's written in so to speak "better" language rather than "simple". The problem is that most books written in more fancy ways are often character driven and directed to a far smaller group of readers than the story driven things that gets popular.
The best "Crime solving novel" I've read is written by the fantasy author who argually has the best grasp of english active today. (Gaiman). It's not like using the writen language as "magic" for a crime novel wouldn't be bad, it would just have to be applied in a different way.

by **Amaryl** Fri Dec 02, 2011 12:56 pm

Muzjhath wrote:The wheel of time is Defenatly worth reading. And Amaryl, the problem I have isn't with the teens hyping things (unless it's Twilight, vampires shouldn't fucking sparkle). It's when people are 25-35 years old and refuse to see that half the love for the series is Nostalgia.
Hell, I still find parts of WoT to be really amazing, at the same time that I find the whole work to be overrated (conflicted, I know. But humans are complicated).

I'm not sure you got my point. claiming half the love is nostalgia, is two steps to far. since you thought it was Totally awesome back then. because It fucking was totally awesome. like wise todays teens will think its totally fucking awesome as well.

What I find weird is the jump you made. Just because your taste has moved on. doesn't mean the story suddenly becomes one of the biggest overrated pieces of work in fantasy. You just moved on, to things that entice you more or as much as the "overrated piece of fantasy" did when you were a Teen.

Sure you can wonder at Past-you and ask: "how the hell did I think this was so awesome back then, its sooo bland?" (or something of a similar stretching) but the truth is you've moved on in your life, you're older, and hopefully more mature and wiser, and your escapism doesn't need to come from the idea of breaking free from your highschool, your parents that don't understand you, the way your life is trapped in these "boring and nonsense duties and requirements" i'm forced to do. no i'm going to a fucking magical land where I am destined to be the hero and even though the road is difficult and hard, i'm the chosen one and my heritage is awesome, i will level armies with my magic and slash you in fucking half.

and as such you're looking for different things in a book to take you away from your normal life. that doesn't make the fiction meant for others wildly overrated. just different.

Also, about the langauge. As long as it is modern it's not hard to read when it's written in so to speak "better" language rather than "simple". The problem is that most books written in more fancy ways are often character driven and directed to a far smaller group of readers than the story driven things that gets popular.
The best "Crime solving novel" I've read is written by the fantasy author who argually has the best grasp of english active today. (Gaiman). It's not like using the writen language as "magic" for a crime novel wouldn't be bad, it would just have to be applied in a different way.

I agree with this sentiment.

by **Lyv** Fri Dec 02, 2011 4:19 pm

Attention all men!

I have found your must-read book.

"Brave Old World" by Tom Hodgkinson, "A practical guide to husbandry, or the fine art of looking after yourself."

Why? I shall quote the chapters only:

1. January: Chop Wood
2. February: Dig Earth
3. March: Sow Seeds
4. April: Tend Fowl
5. May: Bake Bread
6. June: Mind Bees
7. July: Mow Meadow
8. August: Harvest Crops
9. September: Hunt and Gather
10. October: Brew Beer
11. November: Kill Pig
12. December: Feast

by **Eowale** Fri Dec 09, 2011 8:14 am

Just read the first book of Lian Hearn's serie.
The serie is called The Tales of the Otori.
First book was called Across the Nightgale Floor.
There are four more books called;
Grass for His Pillow.
Brilliance of the Moon
The Harsh Cry of the Heron
Heaven's Net is Wide
Im going to quote what people thought of the first book;
One of the best books for those who like magic, war, love, sex, betrayal, revenge, intrigue and adventure.

Also, I got a -load- of books from my cousins when it was my birthday.
One was about the Swedish Metal Music History, with the title Blood. Fire. Death. The first chapter is called "Fuck off!" which made me chuckle. Another chapter is called "What about 'Sieg Heil'?". Im just going WTF at this entire book. Should be interesting to read though.

I got another book called The Thin Executioner. (If it's spelled that way). I havn't begun reading it yet, but I'll read it quite soon.

I also got a new book serie called "The Elenium" by David Eddings. It's basically one fat book containing three seperate books.
The book titles are;
The Diamond Throne
The Ruby Knight
The Sapphire Rose
Once again, Im reading David Eddings books. Im not surprised, though. I can go on all day on how his stories are epic.

by **Shaelyssa** Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:51 pm

Muzjhath wrote:PS, LOTR only deserves about half the hype it gets. It didn't become the "mainstream" fantasy backing until late seventies early eghties for people who actually wrote the genre. Before that older Sword and Sorcery works (For example Conan) was far more proniminent for author inspiration.

I never read LOTR but The Hobbit was kinda meh and the movies were kinda meh too. In general I don't like (high) fantasy though ... too cheesy. I like Terry Prachett though and HP but I'm not crazy about them (TP has made me laugh a LOT though lol, I love him :))

by **Antistia** Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:54 pm

The origins of political order, thus far, is proving to be a very informative read. Greatly enjoying it Smile

by **Muzjhath** Fri Dec 09, 2011 4:59 pm

Shae, now in my a bit older days I can hardly stand "High" fantasy.
I've started to detest most of the "Farmboy with a destenty to save the world because he is the chosen one" stories.

So, I've stopped reading them because there is so much greater books out there.

by **Morinth** Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:19 pm

Shaelyssa wrote:
Muzjhath wrote:PS, LOTR only deserves about half the hype it gets. It didn't become the "mainstream" fantasy backing until late seventies early eghties for people who actually wrote the genre. Before that older Sword and Sorcery works (For example Conan) was far more proniminent for author inspiration.

I never read LOTR but The Hobbit was kinda meh and the movies were kinda meh too. In general I don't like (high) fantasy though ... too cheesy. I like Terry Prachett though and HP but I'm not crazy about them (TP has made me laugh a LOT though lol, I love him )

Loooove Pratchett.

I recommend Bored of the Rings. It's an AMAZINGLY HILARIOUS spin on Lord of the Rings. I will forever remember Bilbo Baggins as Dildo Bugger, thanks to that book.

by **Amaryl** Fri Dec 09, 2011 5:46 pm

Good Omens.

Pratchett and Gaiman together on one Novel. and damn it does not dissapoint.

by **Sonitus** Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:36 am

I actually just finished some Lovecraft stories, I'm getting back into my old love now... Sci-fi!
Just picked Arthur. C. Clarkes, Rendevous with Rama off my college libraries shelves... Sadly when I looked at the inside cover at when it was last taken out, It was in 2005.
When -I- first read it.

That made me a little sad, I remember reading it years back when I was in uniform, trying to get my head around a world in a can. Im surprised that the ACC section of the shelf seemed somewhat untouched.
Gotta be one of my favorite books though, next to the first Dark Tower book.

by **Valerias** Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:22 am

Eowale: I hate Lord of the Flies. But that's just me.

Whoever was asking for Arthurian stuff, and just for anyone generally interested, I highly recommend Sword at Sunset by Rosemary Sutcliff. Not only is she a spectacular author (I owe almost all of my understanding of descriptive writing to her) but it's a cracking good tale. Non-fantasy Arthur, ties in a lot of the Roman stuff. It's ace. And also not at all pretentious, which is very important to me when it comes to Arthurian stories.

by **Thelos** Mon Dec 12, 2011 8:24 am

Rohwyn wrote:
Whoever was asking for Arthurian stuff, and just for anyone generally interested, I highly recommend Sword at Sunset by Rosemary Sutcliff.

Thanks, I'll look in to it and see if I can hunt down a copy of this.

by **corleth** Mon Dec 12, 2011 5:54 pm

okay, i finished my 104552 reading of wuthering heights last night, now i'm going to move onto middlemarch by george elliot to read over the christmas period.

i've got a number of books sitting around to read after that, which i'll list below, if anybody has read any of them and would recommend i prioritise reading it over the others, please tell me!

Spoiler:

by **Feydor** Mon Dec 12, 2011 6:13 pm

reading through siddhartha, got it free on an ipod app

by **Morinth** Mon Dec 12, 2011 7:57 pm

I enjoyed the Lovely Bones. Very Happy

From what I heard, the movie remake was shit compared to the book, so I recommend reading it.

by **Valerias** Tue Dec 13, 2011 3:40 am

Corleth - while I haven't read As I Lay Dying, I have loved everything I have read by Faulkner. Don't know if you've already read some of his, but he has an amazing grasp of both language and human nature. (And he penned my favourite quotation on writing - 'It is the writer's privilege to help man endure by lifting his heart.')

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