Religion

This ia continuation from a remarkably reasonable discussion going on in the last vew pages of the 'Vent' thread here: http://www.defiasrp.com/t3872p570-the-vent-thread

. Moved here because were derailing and rather surpisingly, many of us are not ranting but sharing ideas.

The following is mainly a response to Thelo's response to a comment of mine made there. He asks very reasonably:

Does that mean you'd think the world would improve if you took away religion right now, or do you think the world would have been a better place if religion had never excisted? Your post and that of Eowale appear to suggest the latter. I'm here to tell you that such a thing is inconcievable though. History would have played in such a radically different way that the values of the inhabitants of this theoratical religionless world would be too alien for us to comperehend. So alien in fact that it would seem most horrible and amoral. And that probably goes both ways, too.

To which my response follows:

I actually believe neither because as you say, the two are impossible to envisage. If religion had never existed a -great- volume of my passions would never have existed. Many of my fondest childhood memories are of tramping around literally hundreds of religious sites, ruined/national heritage/and functional with my father. Interestingly we have a very very close relationship but I have no idea what his religious views are, on reflection I believe he is an Atheist. If religion had never existed mankind would be so incredibly different, perhaps positively, perhaps negatively, that it is not worth debating. If religion never existed I would miss it a lot.


Rambling follows, might be interesting to you but not nessecary reading:

I'm rambling here but I hope it's relevent context. When I was growing up my father read the Asterix comics to me. Importantly they first initiated my love for history and reading (I was four, I thought comics were high literature!), but subconsiously I think it also made me aware there were other religions which were no longer seriously believed. My mother was a Church going Christian then and I went with her to Church and Sunday School. I know it is hard to believe but I thought that everyone understood God as I did, fiction, like Toutatis in Asterix and Obelix. That people just did, meaningless tradition. Being an 'army child' in many ways this was how my Uncles' ridiculously eighteenth centuary uniforms were explained. To me tradition for the sake of it was and still is normal. I only became aware of how wrong I was when I first started reading (I say read, I understood the narrative if not several of the words) Genesis for the first time. I had an awkward conversation with the woman who ran the class and by the end of it I understood that I was what I didn't have a word to describe, an Atheist. My mother and I no longer go to Church except on Christmas Eve. She still believes and I just like to accompany her. I also enjoy many of the Hymns. I also like the tradition and heratige.

As I grew up I kept my views to myself, most people in Britain do. I now knew that people actually believed in God, but I had no idea of the lengths to which people still believe. The fanaticism that is standard throughout the USA and Middle East. I slowly grew to learn and understand the world outside of my comfortable youthful existance and that's when I really started to form my views on modern religion.

Since then I've read the Bible cover to cover several times, including an English translation of an Eastern Orthodox one. I'm reading an english translation of the Qu'ran whilst trying to learn Araibic as part of my job, I hope to one day read the Qu'ran in it's original form which I understand has been faithfully proserved unlike the Bible.

Rambling hopefully ends.


I want to see religion fade away. Not aggressively or forcefully. But through what I percieve as part of humanity's continued enlightenment. I don't want religious language to fade away with it and I would, just like Fry's character in 'V' preserve Holy Scripture if anyone ever tried to destroy them. They are nessecary context for so much of human history, in addition as literature they mean a great deal to me. I don't want references to God removed forcefully from ceramony and tradition. I understand prayer to mean 'extra sincere hope' that something good will happen for a person or group of people. God to mean a humans universal responsability to their fellow men and women.

I've rambled a lot. Hopefully somebody will appreciate it.


Lastly, one of my favourite songs:




This may desolve into an outright flamefest, I ask that it not be pre-emptively locked as honest communication is very important but will understand if/when it eventually is.

Hopefully people will read what's already been said and carry on here.

... None of this wasn't really my intention when I vented out on religious fanatics. So I'll repeat what I said; I don't find it bad/wrong to have any religion. It's their own choice and if they want to do such, they can do it. It's the fanatics of a religion that pisses me off. But, Im not here to talk about that. There are several possibilities if religion never existed.

There could be things like;
People wouldnt have any of these "Guide lines" to follow so it would be every man for himself. Y'know, people murdering, raping, stealing and so on.

Incase Religion wasn't there and never stopped Science from creeping up, we could be alot further into our technology then what we are today.

And we could live in a quite good world without religion, without any fear of a God that'd smite us incase we fapped to tentacle hentai.

Note that these are just examples, I don't know more then other people do.

Eowale wrote:fear of a God that'd smite us incase we fapped to tentacle hentai.

So thats what it really comes down to, eh? Your secret is out now Eowale; we all know why you really hate religion so!

Tbf tentacle hentai isn't as bad as it sounds....

Aldranin wrote:Tbf tentacle hentai isn't as bad as it sounds....

try telling that to God, dude won't listen.

To save time as we will get there anyway...

It is magic, like believing in santa ect ect ect...

John chapter 5 v1-8 ect ect

Religion is like Ezekiel 23:20.
Some people just can't handle the emission.

I dunno, I just sort of stopped believing in god before I stopped believing in Santa, he seemed more reasonable >.>.

If there's a god, may he strike me down with lightning now... Well?

Anyway if you took the time to RESEARCH, you'd notice a lot of religions were copied from another. (Many of which, excisting before Christianity)

However im not saying it's a bad thing, just an alternative way to teach kids not to be be assholes. However the whole church tax thing etc, kind of went overboard... /signed paying 200sh euros per year to church, for... getting a burial place when i die. Also i think it's a way to give people hope there's something more to life than just what we see. So it's not necessarily a bad thing.. in modern day life anyway, things used to be a whole lot different in the dark ages. Having muslim and christians in my family (My brother converted to islam to marry this girl) have broadened my view on the subject, not to mentione proven any prejudice wrong i had on religion, at least the to show not everyone from other religions are crazy fanatics. (the woman he married is actually really awesome and cool, and not a terrorist, BIG SHOCK! >_<...as you may have been lead to believe ever since the year 2001)

A comedian once put it well. God (christian god) gave us ten rules, if we break even one of them, he will put us to hell, to get tortured, burned, mauled.. etc to the end of time... but he LOVES us. :p


But this is all just my opinion, and i dont mean to show any disrespect to your (non-excisting *trollface*) god.

Food for thought.

Mankind has always wanted to understand the world. But some things happen that make no sense, hence we have religion. Religion explain these things that cannot be explained, even if doing so vaguely. What then happens depends on the people beliving in this faith. But one most also remember that ones faith is also the easiest way of controling you by people who only use religion as a tool for his/her own power. Or maybe a way to push forward their own personal views on moral and such. This is only one view.

When it comes to any religion, if mankind has been around for so long, then why is this god damning so many by not showing them the "word". Think about it. Humans have been around far longer than most major religions around these days have even existed. Does this mean that all humans before this time is damned from the beginning? That is alot of people to exclude from any kind of afterlife (yes, focused mainly on christianity/judaism/islam)

The only safe thing to say really in any debate about religion is "I ain't touching this!", but that is also a very sad thing to do, since then different views are not shared.

Hmmmm.. I wonder if I made any sense, considering what time it is.

Something I got linked to some time ago. It has been the reason for some interesting discussions ever since. Maybe some of you find it interesting:

Religion is fine as long as you don't use it to force things upon others.

I'm not going to get away with pulling facts out of my ass without any proof at all, why should they? In a report that is.

I look at the current scientific truths, facts, paradigmas, theories and I accept that science is the only way we have to define concepts such as gravity and whatnot. Religion cannot and should never throw itself on historical facts and physical laws.

There are some questions, pure logic cannot answer however. Scientific advancements can only ever give us the means to do things. It can never answer the question wether or not we should use those means. Religion can be one way for people to fill out the blanks and answer these questions. But there are most definitely others ways aswell. In the end, it all depends on what place you give it yourself.

I have a scientific, religious and artistic "background" I guess.

I was rasied Roman Catholic (my mother, my father is a woody atheist with some CofE), I was encouraged to read books on other religions (I did so with relish), to think and question. I studied Chemistry at University. I write and dream like a floppy prat.

I'm pretty much a hippy too. Hugging trees and weaving yoghurt (I was a member of Woodcraft Folk amongst other things). I know that Genesis is bollocks. That many people believe in things that only hurt them, or others. But I also believe there's little bits of magic all over. There are mysteries in the world. In the universe. And I don't know the answers, and I look for them everywhere (and nowhere), and that for me is life.

I don't see anything wrong with a belief, or way of living so long as it's not forced. So long as you question and learn too.

Science, religion, art. All seek the same answer really. "Why?"

We won't ever know the answer. Nor, really, do I want to (there's a brilliant Arthur C Clarke (I think) short story about a supercomputer finding all the names of god). Religion moulded me, but it is not me. I am not defined by my belief, and I think it is dangerous to define yourself by any one facet of thing - be that atheist, Muslim, Christian, Goat Boy etc. Except maybe to define ourselves as one particular thing. A thing we often forget:

We're all human beans.

Fallible, scared, brilliant, stupid, amazing, something, everything and nothing.

I don't have a problem with any "religion". Just the doctrine that surrounds some of them. And the way those doctrines and views warp the messages that many of these belief systems have at their heart (messages of love, life or hope, really).

Having said that I despise with unbridled passion the WBC. And to a lesser extent I boggle and fail to understand Mormons.

/ramble

I would usually write a series of long-winded posts on this matter, but I just can't be bothered anymore. Instead I'll sum my views up by saying this:

The fact that most, if not all religious people, KNOW and UNDERSTAND that all other religions out there are wrong, but for some reason have a blind spot towards their own faith... it just blows my mind.

That said, I also don't understand people who spend all their time hating on religious people in general. Do I personally think the world would be a better place without religion? Sure, especially without the crazy fundies, but I also think the world would be better off without partisan hacks, and a myriad of other things. But even if we banned all of that, you still can't legislate against Crazy. Some people are just whacked, and will be detrimental to society no matter what.

Exhibit A
Exhibit B

etc.

Talasseus Ebondusk wrote:
That said, I also don't understand people who spend all their time hating on religious people in general.

I think it starts with just the real "hard core" believers, the fundamentalists. As that doesn't work people become more and more frustrated, then also turning towards the more moderate ones.

I'll also leave this here: http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Poe's_Law

Contributin

Corleth wrote:

Eowale wrote:fear of a God that'd smite us incase we fapped to tentacle hentai.

So thats what it really comes down to, eh? Your secret is out now Eowale; we all know why you really hate religion so!

I am only protecting Davy Jones!



'sides, I've already said that I don't hate religion. Only the fanatics of it.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Religion is fine as long as you don't use it to force things upon others.

I'm not going to get away with pulling facts out of my ass without any proof at all, why should they? In a report that is.

" I believe in god, kneel before me you pathetic little mortal! "

Rite?

Faralan wrote:

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:Religion is fine as long as you don't use it to force things upon others.

I'm not going to get away with pulling facts out of my ass without any proof at all, why should they? In a report that is.

" I believe in god, kneel before me you pathetic little mortal! "

Rite?

Roughly yes, I'm more thinking about gay marriage, abortions, stem cell research, circumcision (unvoluntary non-medical reasons) and such.

I think the real issue in this discussion, is neither religion nor atheism. I think the real problem is that we, stupid and mentally retarded human beings, try to judge a world and life far bigger than our minds and hearts can comprehend. Religion does the same... and it inherits the same flaws in its thinking as the humans that conceived it. Science, oddly enough, is no different.

I've been raised as a protestant till the age of 18. Then I was thrown in a University that indoctrinated the scientific mind. I joined the caped crusaders that would make it their mission to see religion destroyed.
When I was finally freed of both doctrines, I found myself questioning both, and believe neither hold the answer that we need.

Throwing down the idealistic believes of science is easy, and yet few people actually dare to do it. Here we are, 21st century. Here we are and marvel at our scientific knowledge. Look at the door of your home. See how it protects you from outside dangers and keeps you warm. Shall we now bow and pray to the lords of quantum physics to thank it for this door?
Here we are on this planet, perfectly capable of growing the grains and herding the flocks we need to live. Here we are together, sharing this rock flying in space. And here we are, killing eachother over the biggest grain, the best wool, the coolest car. If two neighbours can't tolerate eachother's existance... how is science going to save humanity?
Do you really feel inventing better computers and space ships suddenly will? What if we could generate matter and energy at heart's content... Do you really believe it will help? We already are capable of generating more energy and delving more materials than we need. We devised a consumption society just to give that excess a place and sense in our life. Did poverty end? Is there world peace?

And then there's religion... Religion does try to tell us how to live together. And that's where shit hits the fan. Religious institutions quickly realized that, for their view to survive, they have to protect it like a nation protects its borders. And it realized the wealth to be gained from expansion, much like a nation or our economy.

Sure, we can blame "religion". If I were to blame everything that indoctrinated me, I would blame religion, my parents, my teachers, science, my company, my clients and my friends. For they all contributed to my thinking and how I percieve the world around me. They partly determin the world I see around me.

And then there's another part I like to blame for indoctrination. Genes. They tell me to fuck anything that walks, they tell me to be loyal and build a socially secure relationship. They tell me to think that young girl over there is a hottie, and the clever one sitting next to her is less interesting. Then they shift my logical mind into gear and tell me the clever one is a smarter choice.
They tell me to try to make babies.. even if my partner would have been a dude. To tell me to hunt food, even it's but a super market.
And... They tell me to jump into a pond to save kids, (4th factor of Darwin's theory IIRC) and by extension blow myself up if it were to save the species and tribe. It tells me to kill another tribe to ensure my tribe's success and it tells me to build a socially safer tribe.

But yeah.. Let's blame religion.

I'm not fond of religion. I'm not fond of any power trying to tell me how it is. In this.. I'm perhaps a scientist more pure than science itself. I won't accept a man's theory just because 1000 scientists say it's the truth. I don't accept another one's claims untill shown the truth of them and even then I'll try to be sceptical.

In conclusion.. I think I'll be an atheist. Probably because I think it's the best of all the options available. It even has the -best- "after life" option, because:
- If there is no after life, you get to die with the satisfaction that you were right
- If there is an after life... I'd like to quote my "Philosphy of science" professor:

"If there is a God whom we have to face upon death.. then I'm glad I'm an atheist. A religious follower will be shivering fear, knowing he'll have to answer for his sins. An atheist will smile, knowing God will have to answer for His."

There have been quite a few incidents with Scientists losing their fancy prof. or dr. because fraude was discovered. And that with numerous publications and peer review (not that they get all the raw data).

It's bad science to just "accept" things. You have to be aware that a lot of things that were once scientific "fact" was proven wrong or had to be changed.

It is a wise man that knows, that he doesn't know everything.

Science is either pure, meaning it's based on fact, and fact alone... and it is naught more than theory.

And then there's impure Science. The impurity starts the second you apply it. The second you apply scientific knowledge on Humans, you are saying "this model of reasoning now applies to you". It's naught different than a religious view being applied on someone.

Eowale wrote:.
Incase Religion wasn't there and never stopped Science from creeping up, we could be alot further into our technology then what we are today.

This argument pops up in different variations, and it is quite false. For one, the whole "Science vs Religion" opposition is somewhat of a modern invention. Science in general, or how we see it now, in general is. Many developments which we know would consider scientific were in fact developed within and thanks to the religious paradaigm and mindset. One can think of the close bond between Bible studies and literature and language in general. The development of astronomy, which in turn lead to the mathmatics that is at the core of so much science, was chiefly inspired by awe of the heavens and the Gods that ordered them. Trying to understand how the universe works isn't anti-religious, in fact much of it can be inspired by religion. It is just in modern times that this diehard "Science vs Religion" dictonomy came to be because the Church's dogmas cannot keep up with such rapid developments in society and technology.

And then there's another thing; Science for its own sake to me is a very frightening idea. Many people seem to advocate science and scientific knowledge to be something to be pursued on its own sake, but I do not feel that at all. I for one am happy that there are moral consciences around to "Slow Science down", because frankly, something has to. Science without a heart is a frightening thing.

I hope I have made it clear that the "Science vs Religion" opposition does not have to be as absolute as it is often presented. We all too simplify things by implying that you are either an Atheïst and pro-science, or Theïstic and anti-science. The two do not have to be in opposition. They complement eachother. Studies and activities like art, religion and literature deal with the "Why" of this world, the normative driving force, the conscience, the heart. Let Science deal with the "What and how" questions. In order to get a complete picture of the universe, we'll need to keep asking both questions and never let one awnser or one approach dominate the others too much. Of course I will admit that there have been plenty of ocassions where the Church has oppressed these other methods of seeking awnsers for other questions. Of course, I'm not stupid. I just ask you not to make the same mistake and once again let the bullied become the bully; try to transcend petty and false opposition and keep the big picture in mind.