Re: This community's self destructive spirit

[The Misty Beast]

You mean that the IC controversies between the guilds made it impossible to lay down some common guidelines about priesthood?

Certainly this was part of the issue and what I pointed at

It's not that local either. I'm facing numerous scenarios where this issue pops up, with people approaching _every single attempt at social/goblin RP_ with a 'How can I get my character's attittude past and look awesome/original, potentially ruining the concept / attempt at RP' instead of thinking about positive contribution as a sign of encouragement. There's a garmada of people who rather just watch RP or walk up and say 'this is bullcrap' and justify it by saying this attittude is just in-character. (Not aimed at you Sadok, I swear.)

I can see the point of people for example not trusting goblins because 90% of the stuff they do either explode or malfunction, but I can't see why wouldn't anyone even consider making an appreciative gesture for our efforts. So far we spent around 5000 gold for RP items, serving food and drinks, and the only people that even bothered to take up arms and be supportive for 5 minutes were the ones that saw my comments on the situation on a private channel.

Don't want to derail the thread, just thought a headsup would be nice that this isn't just present on the Alliance-side of things.

[Thelos]

Seems to me there are several powers at work here. The mentor-student dynamic and parallel the individual versus community dynamic.

Firstly, the mentor-student dynamic, which places an enormous responsibility on the mentor. This responsibility is larger than just a responsibility for the pupil. It is also a responsibility to teach the proper sort of lessons as accepted by the community. I have heard several people mention in this thread the myriad of interpretations of spiritual roleplay. I, myself, wanting to play an experienced Anchorite, tried to do my research so that what I was saying would not contradict that what others were teaching. I did not seek to be special, no, I wanted to conform to the accepted Draenei faith and culture. Alas, I found next to nothing, and now every time I preach or talk about Faith there is a part of me that fears I am contradicting that what others teach.

So, if I were asked to act as a mentor to a priest in training, I would most likely refuse because I fear I am not capable of carrying that responsibility. After all, I do not want to teach a disciple something that contradicts things that others are learning! This is partially because of Blizzard's extremely open and lax treatment of such matters as Faith and Magic. Everything is open for interpretation, up to our imaginations. This, combined with egocentric roleplay, the fact that everyone wants an interesting and unique character, is bound to lead to endless variations of matters of spirituality. And I think this plurality makes the institution of teaching nigh impossible. Imagine if every school in your country had to produce its own schoolbooks, had to do its own research on biology, history, had its own dictionaries and spelling etc. I for one would not want to be the one compiling those textbooks. So much pressure!

Amusingly, in order to properly roleplay a Priest, be you a mentor or a pupil, you need to ultimately submit to a higher authority. You need to relinquish your “uniqueness” and accept that of the community. And in order to submit yourself to a higher authority, there has to be one, and that's where the responsibility problem rears its ugly head again.

Of course, don’t take anything I say here at face value. I've only joined this community for little over a month. These are just a newbie's observations.

[Cid]

Alas, I found next to nothing, and now every time I preach or talk about Faith there is a part of me that fears I am contradicting that what others teach.

You mean like Scarlet Crusade, Argent Dawn and Cathedral of Light contradicting eachother? It is what makes up interesting plots and guidelines in the end. Don't be scared of changes or challenges, they just make RP stronger.

[Nithel]

Perhaps now that you are a priest JP, you can tutor aspiring to-be-priests and share your guidelines through students whom you roleplay with?

[Thelos]

You mean like Scarlet Crusade, Argent Dawn and Cathedral of Light contradicting eachother? It is what makes up interesting plots and guidelines in the end. Don't be scared of changes or challenges, they just make RP stronger.

No, I mean on a more practical level. What Holy Magic can and cannot do. What it can and cannot heal. How one learns a certain spell, technique, or what have you, and what spells and techniques are known to whom.

To give an example, if I am a teacher that is trying to teach my pupil how to heal using the Light, I need to know its limits in details. One opposite would be having it be nigh impossible, making my student feel inadequate, and the other would be making it laughably easy, making my pupil's achievements feel empty.

Basicly, the rules and laws of the Universe. On this level, its different players contradicting eachother, rather than constitutions. There is no "correct" awnser to the question which has of the institutions's philosophy is most faithful to the Light. That, indeed, is what makes it interesting. But there are supposed to be "correct" objective awnsers to what a certain force can and cannot do. You know, pretty much natural laws.

[Kristeas Sunbinder]

Basicly, the rules and laws of the Universe. On this level, its different players contradicting eachother, rather than constitutions. There is no "correct" awnser to the question which has of the institutions's philosophy is most faithful to the Light. That, indeed, is what makes it interesting. But there are supposed to be "correct" objective awnsers to what a certain force can and cannot do. You know, pretty much natural laws.

Edit:
Better?

[Dréfurion]

Basicly, the rules and laws of the Universe. On this level, its different players contradicting eachother, rather than constitutions. There is no "correct" awnser to the question which has of the institutions's philosophy is most faithful to the Light. That, indeed, is what makes it interesting. But there are supposed to be "correct" objective awnsers to what a certain force can and cannot do. You know, pretty much natural laws.

When it comes to magic, it's not so much what the limits of the magic are, but the limits of the caster.

Why didn't you add the img of Kristeas with the glasses (without the text)... Do eet naow!!

*Edit: Much!

[Thelos]

Yes, that's a very interesting stance to take, and perhaps a very fruitful one for the sake of roleplay, but a self-destructive one. Because you will be wanting to limit the magics of others at least. Else why bother having any medical facilities, doctors, surgeons or magical RP at all? We could just place a single priest at the Cathedral that simply waves his arm around fixing everything. O, you lost an eye, sir? *snaps fingers* There you go. Memory loss, you say? *waves hands* There you go! The only way such poorly defined magics could work is in a story told by a single author that has perfect control over everything. As soon as other people come into play, however, other minds, there need to be limits.

I'm exaggerating of course but you I think you can understand the point. Magic without set limits or other sorts of control will break things.

[Kristeas Sunbinder]

Without a, as mentioned, higher authority (like a game master). Roleplayers will have to show discipline and restraint regarding their characters. A character that can do everything, like the single priest that fixes everything, is to my knowledge what is called, a mary sue. A simple way to limit characters from becoming 100% succes, is to /roll for it.
Player A has injury x. Difficulty /roll. Rolls 60.
Player B is the healer. Heal /roll. Rolls 40.
Player B is unable to heal the injury for reasons E, F and G.
Atleast I find it enjoyable to have a framework to rp around.

We're also operating in a setting with very very many different kind of magic users. Different races also have different paths to the same effect. I wouldn't doubt the possibility that all paths have chosen something extra to expand upon the first limits. Or how warlocks tend to be mages that wanted more.

[Thelos]

We're also operating in a setting with very very many different kind of magic users. Different races also have different paths to the same effect. I wouldn't doubt the possibility that all paths have chosen something extra to expand upon the first limits. Or how warlocks tend to be mages that wanted more.

Ah, I think you have found the core of the problem I tried to make (quite inaptly apperantly). Players do not want to come across as a Mary Sue, so they will figure out ways to limit or somehow control the capability of their magics. However, with so many different kinds of magic, magic users and players trying to make sense of how magic works, how will we know what is appropiate to "teach" our pupils? With so much creativity and imagination, I cannot ever see a steady "cirriculum" forming. My problem wasn't really about the all powerfull-ness of magic, but moreso that it is extremely tricky to teach something with such vaguely (and possibly contradictory!) defined properties. Sure, you can say that's something every teacher has to figure out for himself, but as for me personally everytime I think of some sort of ritual or spell to use I have not seen anyone else use before I am scared of breaking the rules, doing something others would argue impossible, or "Mary-Sueing", if you will. Others may have less problems with that, I suppose. Its a very tricky balancing act.

What I am trying to say is that I would prefer it if things like "Healing with Light magic" were more narrowly defined, so that there aren't endless interpetations and endless people practising endless variations. I guess it doesn't help that the only objective measuring stick we have are the game mechanics, in which the Light is basicly a miracle cure for everything.

I fear I have massive derailed this thread though so I'll shut up about my personal struggles. My apoligies, JP, just wanted to share this little question.

[Kristeas Sunbinder]

I suppose the start would be: Basics of how to actualy use .
Then: What you can't or shouldn't do with here.
Where the 2nd part can also be why Necromancy/Fel magic (where it applies) is bad.

[Shaelyssa]

Sorry to be blunt with you, but this keyboard is super annoying to type with and I'm about to leave.

You are responsible for your character's own development and nobody else is. I don't understand why you needed somebody to dictate to you what you should do. If people turned out not to be as committed as they first said they would be, then that's too bad I guess. You have to make do with what you have.

There are so many things I want from the Kalimdor community, but I can't expect them all to want the same things I want. Now that your character is a proper priest, why don't you just be part of the change you want to see happen?

But in the end of the day, unfortunately, if people don't want what you have to offer or just can't be committed enough to be a part of it, then there's not much you can do to counter that except keep trying.

[Drustai]

You mean like Scarlet Crusade, Argent Dawn and Cathedral of Light contradicting eachother? It is what makes up interesting plots and guidelines in the end. Don't be scared of changes or challenges, they just make RP stronger.

No, I mean on a more practical level. What Holy Magic can and cannot do. What it can and cannot heal. How one learns a certain spell, technique, or what have you, and what spells and techniques are known to whom.

To give an example, if I am a teacher that is trying to teach my pupil how to heal using the Light, I need to know its limits in details. One opposite would be having it be nigh impossible, making my student feel inadequate, and the other would be making it laughably easy, making my pupil's achievements feel empty.

Basicly, the rules and laws of the Universe. On this level, its different players contradicting eachother, rather than constitutions. There is no "correct" awnser to the question which has of the institutions's philosophy is most faithful to the Light. That, indeed, is what makes it interesting. But there are supposed to be "correct" objective awnsers to what a certain force can and cannot do. You know, pretty much natural laws.

I don't think the players contradict each other at all. The religion can do anything the priest has faith in it doing. Individual dogma and lack of faith is what limits its practical uses. Any kind of pomp and ritual associated with the task is exactly that... pomp and ritual, designed to help the priest maintain and demonstrate his faith. A priest heals because he has faith in his ability (or rather, the Light's ability) to heal. The stronger one's faith, the better the heal. (In the case of Shadow, it's generally about faith in your own power to do so. "This will heal because I said so.")

What would happen if a pupil asked what the limits are? The priest, if he is faithful, should generally say "there are no limits. Only failings in faith." The individual dogmas might say there are limits on things, but that's a case of the order inputting its own approach on the universe and not actually how the Light (or Shadow) functions. A priest of Anethion not wanting to, or possibly even being incapable of healing a non-human would be because their dogma just doesn't encompass them and therefore they have no/limited faith in accomplishing the task. They still technically -could- if they somehow had the faith in doing it, but the dogma limits what they believe is possible/right and so they don't truly want to do it... it'd be heresy, against the order's dogma. This priest, seeing that he is unable to heal the non-human because he doesn't have faith in it, might then use the incident to reinforce his belief that it isn't possible, making it harder to do in the future. "See?! The Light rejects them!" It has nothing to do with what the Light can and cannot do, only what the dogma permits that priest to believe or not believe.

Basically what I'm trying to say is... in the case of religion, most things are possible. Having individual dogmas and even 100 different ways of "ritualizing" a heal is perfectly fine for a priest. Thisi s because those rituals aren't the actual route through which the wound is healed. Faith and faith alone is what heals. Everything else is just fluff designed to allow the priest to better demonstrate or test his individual faith. A heal is only limited by the faith of the priest (or group of priests, in the case of group activities).

That's the thing I've found troublesome with priests in RP a lot of the time. They frequently seem to believe it's the ritual that enables them to do things. That they 'learn how to heal' instead of the more accurate 'learn how to believe'. Holy/Divine Shadow isn't a school of magic. It is not learned like magic. It is not about reagents and formulaic principles that govern the exact specifics of what it can and cannot do. It is faith and faith alone. Everything else is dogmatic fluff.


tldr: See Kristeas' picture. /nod

[Rmuffn]

Now that your character is a proper priest, why don't you just be part of the change you want to see happen?

This is something I was thinking about.

JP should have the experienced required to be a good mentor for the next people to come. Always a good start!

[Frostfeather]

You are responsible for your character's own development and nobody else is. I don't understand why you needed somebody to dictate to you what you should do. If people turned out not to be as committed as they first said they would be, then that's too bad I guess. You have to make do with what you have.

I think you missed his point. His point was that he wanted to play his character as a student but where unable to due to the lack of tutors.

Holy/Divine Shadow isn't a school of magic. It is not learned like magic. It is not about reagents and formulaic principles that govern the exact specifics of what it can and cannot do. It is faith and faith alone. Everything else is dogmatic fluff.

Well that's one interpretation of it. It can though be argued that a human priest and a night elf priestess of the moon is very different from each other. Game mechanically the same class but with very different views of the light and possibly different power sources. I think you are over simplifying by saying that the light equals faith.

And shadow is a "school" of magic isn't it? The fel arcane?

Anyways I agree that we should put the blame on Blizz for this one. The lore is vague and confusing (at least to me). If we were to write down a kind of server lore regarding this topic it would almost be impossible because of the different views on this that already exists. Who has to yield? Can en-richening the RP for one group of players justify crippling others RP?

Tricky business to expand the lore.

[Dréfurion]

There's two 'kinds' of Shadow, the way I see it. The one that's like Holy magic but it's opposite that's attained in the same way as you gain control of holy energies (read Flitzi's doctrines) and there's a shadow that's twisted arcane. They are two very diffrent things.

Also, if you read Flitzi's doctrines, you could argue that Elune as a source of powers is obsolete, and that just having faith in her is enough to gain acces to holy/shadow energies.

Although I do recall Shae mentioning Elune herself interacting with what goes on with Azeroth, and thus it could be argued that she is the proper source of holy/shadow energies for Night Elfs. I am not too sure if there's Lore the explicitly states the one or the other.

[Drustai]

You are responsible for your character's own development and nobody else is. I don't understand why you needed somebody to dictate to you what you should do. If people turned out not to be as committed as they first said they would be, then that's too bad I guess. You have to make do with what you have.

I think you missed his point. His point was that he wanted to play his character as a student but where unable to due to the lack of tutors.

Holy/Divine Shadow isn't a school of magic. It is not learned like magic. It is not about reagents and formulaic principles that govern the exact specifics of what it can and cannot do. It is faith and faith alone. Everything else is dogmatic fluff.

Well that's one interpretation of it. It can though be argued that a human priest and a night elf priestess of the moon is very different from each other. Game mechanically the same class but with very different views of the light and possibly different power sources. I think you are over simplifying by saying that the light equals faith.

They are different in dogma, but not different in the fact that both rely on faith, which was my point. Whether or not the power source is different is up for speculation (since Elune might or might not be a Naaru), but actually calling upon powers of the faith in both is ultimately the same--simple faith. The dogma is what makes the two religions different.

I wasn't saying that it's faith in the Light. Just faith in one's own religion in general, no matter if it's the Light, Elune, the Loa, and so on.

And shadow is a "school" of magic isn't it? The fel arcane?

It's not a school, since a school in magical terms is things like Necromancy, Conjuration, Evocation, etc. Blizzard does sometimes call shadow a school (along with the other elements, like a fire school), but that's a bit inaccurate and contradictory when they also say there are only the finite Schools of Magic (Evocation etc). Shadow is more of an energy. If anything, it's a descriptor or subschool (which is what Wowpedia calls it).

[Drustai]

There's two 'kinds' of Shadow, the way I see it. The one that's like Holy magic but it's opposite that's attained in the same way as you gain control of holy energies (read Flitzi's doctrines) and there's a shadow that's twisted arcane. They are two very diffrent things.

The former is Divine Shadow. It's a divine humanism style belief system based on the properties of shadow (draining others to fuel yourself).

And normal shadow isn't twisted arcane, since that's fel (fel and shadow are not the same thing). Shadow is a natural destructive energy source (decay and death are caused by natural shadow).

[Thelos]

Some interesting points being raised in this thread. Let me keep my responses brief. First, a minor gripe; there is no such thing is an individual dogma. There can be a personal interpretation of dogma, but a dogma is per definition something held by an organization/group/community.

You are responsible for your character's own development and nobody else is.

This I fundamentally disagree with. A character is developed as much by the community and the other characters it interacts with as the player that controls it. Yes, the player might eventually be the one making the actual decisions of what the character is to do, but the choices are offered by the community. I'd argue that the other players that have characters that interact with yours are partially responsible for your character's development.

A priest heals because he has faith in his ability (or rather, the Light's ability) to heal. The stronger one's faith, the better the heal.

I agree 100% with this. I Holy “magic” (the word magic seeming inappropriate) is magic of the heart; opposed to Arcane, which is magic of the mind. Also, while I agree that the Light should only be limited by the Faith of those who partake in it; this is not how it can work on a practical level. At least, not without the limits of a meta-level decency, humility and respect for other players. And from what I have read in this thread that is ultimately what it boils down to. I seem to be asking for an objective measuring stick or some sort of laws from the community that does the limiting for me, while apparently this is to be done by individuals. It doesn't help that the only other objective measuring stick, namely the actual game, uses healing to practically cure anything without consequence.

Tricky business to expand the lore.

O, and this. Leave it to others to express what you are trying to say in much clearer wording

[Drustai]

Some interesting points being raised in this thread. Let me keep my responses brief. First, a minor gripe; there is no such thing is an individual dogma. There can be a personal interpretation of dogma, but a dogma is per definition something held by an organization/group/community.

I meant the dogma of the organization/group. Anethion dogma, Elune dogma, etc. I meant individual as the dogma the individual happens to follow.

A priest heals because he has faith in his ability (or rather, the Light's ability) to heal. The stronger one's faith, the better the heal.

I agree 100% with this. I Holy “magic” (the word magic seeming inappropriate) is magic of the heart; opposed to Arcane, which is magic of the mind. Also, while I agree that the Light should only be limited by the Faith of those who partake in it; this is not how it can work on a practical level. At least, not without the limits of a meta-level decency, humility and respect for other players. And from what I have read in this thread that is ultimately what it boils down to. I seem to be asking for an objective measuring stick or some sort of laws from the community that does the limiting for me, while apparently this is to be done by individuals. It doesn't help that the only other objective measuring stick, namely the actual game, uses healing to practically cure anything without consequence.

There isn't really any objective measuring stick or laws I'm afraid. You pretty much have to decide for yourself what is reasonable. I think for most people, though, the idea of healing "curing everything without consequence" is viewed as too much, and most people limit themselves from that.

[Frostfeather]

Well it seems like there are some different views on what "holy magic" actually is. While I find the discussion interesting I think we are derailing from the original post. It does though high light the problem with defining a priests path.

There are other examples as well where the vague lore will make it impossible to decide what is right, to give a simpler example all kaldorei guilds have probably had several discussions about whether animal forms can speak or not. While it is immensely funny to theorise and lore craft about these things it will be a never ending discussion. Even if all of DB were able to agree on questions like these now we have to realize that six months from now the community will be different - new players, new interpretations and even new lore. It would just start all over again.

So I actually think one should try to accept different interpretations and try to isolate a part and develop that while accepting that there might be other views. In the example of the OP I think it would have been a much higher probability of success if the goal hadn't been to define priesthood but to define the teachings of the [whatever]shire monks/priests. That would give more freedom to be bold with the lore and less politics.

[Seranita]

A priest heals because he has faith in his ability (or rather, the Light's ability) to heal. The stronger one's faith, the better the heal.

I agree 100% with this. I Holy “magic” (the word magic seeming inappropriate) is magic of the heart; opposed to Arcane, which is magic of the mind. Also, while I agree that the Light should only be limited by the Faith of those who partake in it; this is not how it can work on a practical level. At least, not without the limits of a meta-level decency, humility and respect for other players. And from what I have read in this thread that is ultimately what it boils down to. I seem to be asking for an objective measuring stick or some sort of laws from the community that does the limiting for me, while apparently this is to be done by individuals. It doesn't help that the only other objective measuring stick, namely the actual game, uses healing to practically cure anything without consequence.

ay same here... thow I do agree on the conciquence bit.. calling upon any light source or magic.. be it holy fel etc.. wether by faith or understanding would always be tiring... hell when my wee little priest first discoverd she could use light (not my draenie) it would exaust her just healing the simplest wounds with it and she would go temporerely blind as a result.. as she never had any guidence in learning such stuff she never understood how failt = ability so she would do all she could and volenterely ware herself out to heal this injures one... this expectance to be worn out was what partialy led to the temporary blindness

[Gilraen]

What an interesting thread to read while trying to stave off the effects of alcohol in my blood stream... ahem going off topic... right...

I agree 100% with this. I Holy “magic” (the word magic seeming inappropriate) is magic of the heart; opposed to Arcane, which is magic of the mind. Also, while I agree that the Light should only be limited by the Faith of those who partake in it; this is not how it can work on a practical level. At least, not without the limits of a meta-level decency, humility and respect for other players. And from what I have read in this thread that is ultimately what it boils down to. I seem to be asking for an objective measuring stick or some sort of laws from the community that does the limiting for me, while apparently this is to be done by individuals. It doesn't help that the only other objective measuring stick, namely the actual game, uses healing to practically cure anything without consequence.

Normally I would also be in agreement, but digging through that dungeon journal in the past there is an interesting part for Halls of Origination.

In the final days of the Halls of Origination's use by titanic forces, Temple Guardian Anhuur was endowed with the willpower needed to wield the Light. Thus empowered, he was charged with judging the purity of those entering the facility.

So we really can't just claim faith beeing the only limitation. Or dismiss rituals and ceremonies as etiquette with no practical results.

I would say mental discipline, emotion state, training (meditation comes to mind), and faith could equally influence those partaking in the Light/divine "magic" and its effectiveness. With faith obviously beeing the most important of the ones listed above. Rituals and ceremonies could varry from beeing exercises required to retain the mental state required for divine spellcasting, to guidelines on how to achieve something.

Also by turning to the actual game we do have some examples of how healing spells affect those using them. An example that comes to mind is the draenei priest performing the exorcism back in Hellfire and how he remarks on how tiresome the whole experience is or his exhaustion afterwards. Eventually it boils down to how much of you did it take to perform a healing task, to judge the exhaustion and side effects. No need to actually seek a ruleset to apply limitations to everyone when everyone is a unique and different person.(not to mention that finding a ruleset that everyone will agree upon as beeing a very tiresome task if at all possible). Personal creativeness should be promoted (as long as it is does cross into the realm of sillyness)

As a last note I find the suggestion of adding a percentage difficulty for a task (for example 60) and rolling to determine success as an excellent idea. Some randomness added to what I have perceived as random predetermined rp is fine and well in my books



If all of the above are making no sense or are blatanly offtopic, I apoligise I am obviously a bit too intoxicated to notice.

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