This community's self destructive spirit

[Jeanpierre]

Grab a cup of coffee. There will be text here.

So.. Here we are. I'll finally let Jean-Pierre be 'officially' named priest. I would like to take the opportunity to reflect on a few things, for in the end, this history of my character is shared with the community, and the community is part of our character's history. It is the end of a chapter which, I hope, others enjoyed tremendously as well.

It is also something I have tried to share with the community as often as the community would allow it. And it is this aspect, in particular, where I would like to share my experiences... and disappointments.

From the start I felt attracted to the idea to "earn" a priest title through the community. It proved a difficult, and in the end impossible challenge.. but for all the wrong reasons. Where I expected endless RP challenges, I found barely any. Where I expected authoritive people to enjoy playing that "wise" teacher, I found barely any capable of being that.

There was no structure, no overview, no general concept... This community struck me as clueless.
I tried to overcome that, and developed my own structure, my own overview, my own concept. It was shared with my guild. It was shared with all those people who had once claimed they would teach me. And for a moment I thought there was hope. Giving them a structure of where I want to go with my character, offering blueprints of roughly 50 rp sessions, surely that would have been enough of a cookbook to help them RP their part?
It failed miserably, for they suffered another weakness: continuity. They lacked what they demanded of their students: commitment.

The solution was to remove my dependency from other people. It pains me to say that, detaching my development RP from the community has been a lesson I had to learn every single time I tried to launch something through the community. My character and roleplay evolved faster, as I increased the distance between my character and the community.

When Fortesgue launched the community of Light, I had a brief moment of hope. I had enough work, plans, blueprints lying about to deliver something I thought interesting: a chance to elevate priest roleplay in this community. I envisioned we could inspire priests to public acts of faith, ceremonies, preaching, rather than this pub-talk, and through that build a chance for priest roleplayers to develop their characters.

Unfortunately, every suggestion failed. What I tried to bring one step at a time, proved too fast. What I tried to bring cautiously, proved too radical. We were almost accused of trying to be control freaks for discussing priest development. Heavens forbid! We could have actually built something! Such heresy could clearly not be tolerated.

Stuck between its own self destructive arguments, the community failed to accept anything that could resemble development and I'm left wondering why. Should, when I speak of "preaching", really worry about marking the differences between an Anethion, a Disciple or a Friar before I'm permitted to think about it?
Should, when I speak of community work, really worry about making sure if it fits everyone's highest ideals? I'm talking a priest here, not god trying to make this world perfect for all.
Apparently, people couldn't accept a system that was flexible, and without flexibility the individual demands were too different.

When a new roleplayer would show up and ask about priest roleplay... is the first thing we should teach him: go fuck yourself until you have chosen to be a fanatic or a church-follower?

People never lacked creativity when it came to pulling things to their personal interest. They severely lacked creativity in helping blueprints be what they were designed for: a source of inspiration. A source that, a new person could look at and say "well I like half of this thing a lot.. Let's start with that". A source that, despite our roleplayed differences, tries to inspire people with roleplay and reward them with roleplay. The message I was hoping to build for new players was:
"This program holds examples of things we enjoyed. Perhaps you can too?"
or perhaps more ambitious
"Through this program, you could learn as much as your heart desires AND it will bring you among the people. As you roleplay with other people, so will you build a community around your priest. As you build this circle of people around you, so will this circle of people celebrate your ascension to priesthood".

But sadly, such things can not be envisioned since people do not permit concepts of priest roleplay to be discussed without forcing it be the doctrine of one guild or another.
To put it bluntly, there is no room for progression in this community. The ambition to distinguish their own character and little differences outwight people's ambition to inspire people.

So.. the closing chapter of my character's development is a mixture of joy and sadness. It is a joy, for I had a great time and lovely roleplay. It is a joy for I'm proud of my robe fiddling idiot. But I can't help feel defeat that, despite continuous efforts for a year and a half, I failed in building my character through this community and with more profound interaction.

Most of all, I believe it is a defeat for priest roleplay. Priests, designed to be community-oriented symbols of faith, are forced to become secluded spell slingers.

In the end, I developed my own path. I developed my own trial to qualify as a priest. And I developed my own ritual of ascension to priesthood.
I'll post the ingredients and blueprints I used here. Not with the intention of dictating anyone, not even to suggest anyone should follow my footsteps. Print it and burn it if you wish.
But I'll post it to say.. "This is what character development inspired me to. Perhaps.. it can inspire another. Perhaps.. it might deliver inspiration in something this community unknowingly holds back. This.. is my story."

You can read our structure here:
https://defiasrp.forumotion.net/t3549-path-to-priesthood

And our personal implementation of that structure will be up soon.


Jean-Pierre

[Gesh]

I'm not an avid human-roleplayer, infact I've never really had a human charecter that a commited to. Let alone a priest, or a paladin. But I do know what it's like haveing a charecter with faith, Within the Cult of shadow we have the most creative and loveable bunch of priests you will ever meet rangeing from the casual to the zealous. The essence of what I feel makes community roleplay, great and welcoming is a firm sense of patiences, understanding and the ability to both give and take, we all have our ideal interpretation of roleplay and charecters, But whats important to understand is that what may seem like a brilliant idea for yourself, may end up being utterly unwanted by another and that's perfectly okay! It's about coming to an agreement for everyone involved, such a shame you haven't seem to have found that.


The Cult of Shadow loves priests, just not the shiny/breatheing kind.


P.S I'm not gonna bother spellchecking my post, I've given up all hope.

[Eodan]

Very nicely posted, JP. While I can't say I know anything about priest RP.. Nor your path, as we only RPed every so often, I understand where you come from. To try and build a character through the community, advancing blueprints as you call them seems impossible, people are too secluded.
"It's black or white.". That's the mentality I feel is spread about, no shade of grey, which in your post is nicely described as to how a priest should be a fanatic or a church follower.

I cannot add anything to the discussion nor a thought of how to improve things, but it certainly brought me to thinking about progressive roleplay and for all that it matters, your characters progress is something I've followed passively through your stories and the chances I've had to encouter JP and I've loved it.
I'm sorry you've had to seclude yourself in order to achieve such progress, but maybe.. Just maybe others might be brought to thinking with this text.


On another hand. Congratulations to achieving your priesthood!

[Kozgugore Feraleye]

I haven't been overly active on Alliance for quite a long time now, so I don't exactly know the state of business in terms of specific roleplay there, but I have long been getting the impression that "spiritual" roleplay is one of the kinds of roleplay that will always have less of an interest than a lot of the other RP.

In my guild, and perhaps in general orc RP in itself, there has been a long time of very little to no shaman RP. This was most oft either due to a lack of shaman in itself, or the player behind the shaman simply not being that deeply interested in the spiritual RP that hides behind the class. Of course it's very much of a waste, because a lot can be discovered through spiritual RP.

Over the past months though, we've been getting increasingly more shaman as well as shaman RP. Although a spiritual leader to promote that kind of RP can help, I believe people simply need some kind of anchor to hold on to; a community of sorts to feel a part of. I'm not sure how many priests or the like are active out there, but as with every other kind of RP, everyone has a different view and perspective on spiritual RP and the beliefs that go with it. Keeping all those factors in mind, I can very much understand that it's difficult to keep any kind of group for that kind of RP together, as it requires understanding of the concept, the will to further explore it, and well... actually being -interested- in spiritual RP in a game that advocates ooga-booga RP. After all, in the end, people will always be egocentric. Not even in the negative kind of way, but people have created a character to further their own needs, and they will, more often than not, stick to those own needs of theirs. If they're to be involved in someone else's personal RP, it's more often than not simply best to OOCly ask if they would be interested in having a personal role involved with another character.

Despite all that, I'm quite certain that there's a lot of people who actually feel appreciation for those kinds of RP, even if they're not a part of that priestly community themselves. Perhaps if you find a lack of RP inside the spiritual community itself, you could try branching off into the other directions as well (as in, try to involve even non-spiritual RPers), though I have a feeling you might have already tried that approach.

[Gesh]

The Black and white mentality is indeed something to be watched, to many people prefer shallow charecters built around pre-designed roles and although this can be a rewarding and quick way to pick up roleplay. It can result in un-natural outcomes and a very emotionless experience. For example, in the same way people don't seem to reconise how a conversation can't simply erupt into bloodshed or the death of a player, conflict is created through disagreements or a misunderstanding. Too many people brew conflict simply so they can demonstrate a charecters strength or superiority, it's more of an OOC intention rather then an IC one!

[Jeanpierre]

A man walks into a garage, looking for a new car because he heard they are awesome. A salesperson greets him and asks him what kind of car he likes. If the man doesn't know, the salesperson walks him around a hall of pristine looking cars. He gives an animated introduction to each car, asks the man what color he likes, what type of traction and explains along the way, as required. Step by the step, the man learns of cars and learns to choose one he might like.

A man steps into this garage and the whole showroom is empty. All he sees are two salespersons shouting at eachother.
"HUMVEEE!!!"
"NO!! Sportcar!!!!"
"HUMVEE!!"

[Eodan]

A man walks into a garage, looking for a new car because he heard they are awesome. A salesperson greets him and asks him what kind of car he likes. If the man doesn't know, the salesperson walks him around a hall of pristine looking cars. He gives an animated introduction to each car, asks the man what color he likes, what type of traction and explains along the way, as required. Step by the step, the man learns of cars and learns to choose one he might like.

A man steps into this garage and the whole showroom is empty. All he sees are two salespersons shouting at eachother.
"HUMVEEE!!!"
"NO!! Sportcar!!!!"
"HUMVEE!!"

Bullseye.

[Gesh]

it is quite discouraging to keep handing out advices and only get insults and total denial in return.

Story of my life

a misplaced sense of superiority that people like to flaunt? I dunno that's just my experience from such sitauations. People dislike being wrong and equally love being right. But roleplay shouldn't be about that.

Spot on.

[Braiden]

it is quite discouraging to keep handing out advices and only get insults and total denial in return.

Story of my life

a misplaced sense of superiority that people like to flaunt? I dunno that's just my experience from such sitauations. People dislike being wrong and equally love being right. But roleplay shouldn't be about that.

Spot on.

My sense of superiority is obviously not misplaced, I know I am superior!


Anyhow I see were you are comming from JP, it seems to be a syndrome of many categorys of RP both current and past.

[The Misty Beast]

Even in a stream of shit, stand proud, use reason, and if it fails, just ignore. Your rhetoric is far more empathic than mine, and things worked for me still when I started projects or carried them on.

[Amaryl]

Woah, what a melodramatic read on my lunch break...

Anyway, I see where you're coming from partly, though I can't say I agree on everything you're saying, but I won't be revisiting trampled horses.

There is however something in there that strikes me as a rather odd accusation:

*snip* another weakness: continuity. They lacked what they demanded of their students: commitment. *snip*

While Yes Continuity on the whole is a flaw of this community or any roleplaying community as big as this one with a completely static world.

You're making it sound like the problem is because peop-l;e can't be arsed to help others if it doesn't help themselves in that paragraph, that "The community" (or in this case "mentors") are there solely to do what they like when they like it and you just have to keep up or get out.

It sounds like a blatant accusation towards the -willingness- to RP certain plots or things.

Which from my experience is far, far from Correct.

I'm not claiming that continuity and/or commitment is not a problem (since well it is), but to imply that it stems from the wilful actions of the community is rather farfetched.

To me that problem is due to other factors

The biggest being: Scheduling:

Wow is a game, and as we all know or as we all should know RL always goes first.

which leaves RPers with relatively little time to be actively engaged in the entire spectrum of RP available, or within their interest.

The more active characters a person has the bigger this problem. I'm not claiming that having a lot of rp alts is wrong, certainly not, but it does cut that person's rping time short, more specifically the chance to use that character to further your own storyline through RP with them.

Additionally if you only have one or two active RP chars, and little time to RP
you're stuck with the ability to Roleplay in the events and plots that you'd like to rp in, And keep up one on one developmental Roleplay.
(You and I, JP have had a few problems with that alone. with Percey)

[Krogon Devilstep]

Though it has been a long time since i played on alliance, it seems little in reality has changed. and by the sounds of it you JP have been greeted with the same problem i often was when trying to organise and build things, and unfortunately the stress of it all finnaly beat me.

and thus i present you with a piece of advice that i was given long long ago, but i DONT want you to follow like i did.

"drag them, drag them every inch of the way, kicking and screaming if you must. Becuase if -you- dont, nobody will"

[Drustai]

It is very sad, and I agree entirely. Everytime it seems the community starts pulling together, divisive personalities often split it apart. It comes to the point where if you really want to get what you want, you have to look for the handful of people who can cater to it. They're out there.

Somewhat on the idea of you wanting but being unable to find a way to get training, I personally find it hard to give it. I'd love an apprentice mage, someone to set up a very long set of training and education (rather than the quick 'in a month or two you will be a master mage!' shit that most people do) though in my experience it's often hard to find those who want to play an apprentice that is willing to go through the effort of a realistically long learning experience. In that example I suppose it's a bit more personal than the community-centered priest, but the point is that you just have to find those people who are looking for that same type of commitment that you are, and sticking with them.

Point is, eventually you have to realize you can't really build a community. Instead, try to foster the ties you have with those who do share the same feelings and desires you do, and stick with them. Build smaller groups of like minds instead of wider communities. Those will be a bit more permanent and enjoyable.

[Jeanpierre]

You're making it sound like the problem is because peop-l;e can't be arsed to help others if it doesn't help themselves in that paragraph, that "The community" (or in this case "mentors") are there solely to do what they like when they like it and you just have to keep up or get out.

No, no. I'm not trying to imply they have bad will, nor proved unwilling to play along. I'm confident they meant it when they said they wanted to play a mentor. But the truth is, they didn't get that far. When I asked people what it would take me to RP the evolution to a priest, and to RP their student, they would openly speak it would require dedication and commitment. That was "the deal".
The way it was presented to me at the time was literally: "we know the stuff, you dedicate to it and we'll get you along the way." It almost sounded ideal to me. I hold no grudge against them personally, but with each and every one of them falling, be it to RL or any other perfectly valid reason, there were two things lost:
1) I had nothing left to dedicate to
2) I had "to start over" as all structure, overview and tracking of my progression was lost
In fact, there never seemed to have been any goal or any structure at all. Either that, or we never got to that part.
It was like being ordered to walk, but having them disappear before they told me how fast, how often, how far, and where to.. and long before they could give me feedback on how well or badly I walked.

It encouraged me to believe that, perhaps an overview of some things.. a plan.. a structure.. could help. Not one that a Disciple has to dictate for an Anethion. But a blueprint. Something with enough ideas, concepts and examples put into so that it can help a newbie roleplayer build his own idea, his own concept and preferences with... and propose it to the people around him. Basically, like a cookbook, filled with recipes, variations and ideas.

In the end, it is the student him or herself that has to choose where to go with their character.. but when even the wise take their knowledge and experience with them.. are we not loosing more than just a member of the community?

Secondly, I tried to work with them because I felt such evolution in character should be accomplished this way. This responsibility is not something I can decide for them however. In that you are right. But if our community proves large enough, could we as a community not share this responsibility? Is it really that hard to let a man, who himself volunteers for it, work with the community through roleplay? You could perhaps claim we have little common ground ICly so no plan can please everyone, but what does that have to do with it?
It's the student's choice what is done.. not ours. Our part is to deliver inspiration, and we could be an audience to whom a person demonstrate their progress.

Yes, us being that audience... That is perhaps an important key in this whole discussion. Why? Because it is an integral part of what a priest could be: a community oriented class. Just like a Paladin needs his battles, so does a priest needs a community. But if this community doesn't permit progression, because they can't accept the concept without it being their own guild's iconic definition, then this community as a whole cuts off a piece of its own RP.

Additionally if you only have one or two active RP chars, and little time to RP
you're stuck with the ability to Roleplay in the events and plots that you'd like to rp in, And keep up one on one developmental Roleplay.
(You and I, JP have had a few problems with that alone. with Percey)

Aye. You are quite correct, but I do feel this is somewhat distant from my original post.

[Amaryl]

Yes, us being that audience... That is perhaps an important key in this whole discussion. Why? Because it is an integral part of what a priest could be: a community oriented class. Just like a Paladin needs his battles, so does a priest needs a community. But if this community doesn't permit progression, because they can't accept the concept without it being their own guild's iconic definition, then this community as a whole cuts off a piece of its own RP.

Here I believe you are mixing up somethings or i'm simply understanding you wrong. But you're using two definitions of "the community" here that don't seem to permit progression in the way you envision it.

firstly Yes a priest needs a community. or a flock to look over and provide guidance. This is something that the roleplayer himself must work hard to achieve. (and naturally a disciple won't have a congregation of anethioneans and vice versa) but this community is one that you build up over time, and you can indeed use it to both progress your healing skills aswell as preaching skills and what not. and in this Seiken is more then correct that you need to pull and pull and drag and drag until you're so well known that people go to you the moment they need some guidance. What Fort build wasn't done overnight.

and i understand that it will be difficult to rp a newbie preacher and continue to draw a crowd as you improve.

And then you're using the community as a term for a light based organisation that see's to the training of Priests.

and you're using both those terms as "the community" as if one can't do without the other, and I believe that's a fallacy in your argument.

[Jeanpierre]

And then you're using the community as a term for a light based organisation that see's to the training of Priests.
and you're using both those terms as "the community" as if one can't do without the other, and I believe that's a fallacy in your argument.

Pfft. I don't understand what you mean with one unable to go without the other. Can a community do without light orders? Why.. most certainly. Can a Light order do without a community? Perhaps. But I don't see how this is related. It certainly isn't what I wanted to point at.
When I say a priest needs a community, I really don't mean the circle of people he builds as followers (though that is a lovely extra). What I mean is a society where he can "play his role". People he can be a priest for... or -try- to be a priest for.

[Amaryl]

When I say a priest needs a community, I really don't mean the circle of people he builds as followers (though that is a lovely extra). What I mean is a society where he can "play his role". People he can be a priest for... or -try- to be a priest for.

this is the exact same thing, i'm talking about a congregation, not necessarily followers. to be a priest for people, he needs people to listen to him preach, go to him for aid and guidance etc. so its the exact same thing just naming it differently, or splitting hairs whatever..

what i however I was getting at: the impression I got from your post was that you cannot try to gain a congregation as a priest without an order backing you up.
and that you used the same word community to both solely describe that order, and sometimes to describe solely the congegation, while using the same word. which for me caused some confusion as to what you actually meant to say but meh, i believe we spend to much time on this discussion already .

one thing I did find difficult while RPing with JP, he's a chaplain in a priestly order... a bloody officer making life and death decisions for paladins and priests.. while not being an actually ordained priest, or better yet still being a "student"

[Jeanpierre]

one thing I did find difficult while RPing with JP, he's a chaplain in a priestly order... a bloody officer making life and death decisions for paladins and priests.. while not being an actually ordained priest, or better yet still being a "student"

All I can say is... I share your pain. And... I find it sad that his IC authority isn't challenged more often. That is another discussion! Perhaps something to discuss over a beer. But yes, I'm fully aware of this conflict. It's an abomination, almost. But JP is catching up.

[Frostfeather]

Very interesting read. Not sure I understood your point completely though. I would be very interested in talking more to you about this as this seem to tie in to some of my own views and analysis. Now allow me to slip into the role of the devils advocate for a while...

I was hooked from the title but I don't really see how you failing to fulfil your RP goals the way you envisioned it makes the community self destructive. Maybe we have different definitions about what is self destructive and what falls under the more general not-done-right-category.

I think your original plan was flawed. It seems like you really need "the tutor" to effectively play the role as the student. And that's IMHO really the reason this wonderful initiative didn't work out as well as you had expected it to.

I am really impressed by your hard work with the "blue prints". To tell you the truth though I would find it hard to accept the role as the tutor if the student was the OOC leader in our RP (unless ofc our OOC relation was strong enough). I've read a lot of your posts on this forum and I always thought until very recently that you were RPing as one of the higher order priests. I think you are a prisoner of your own brilliance. To play your tutor would be a very intimidating job.

If one of my guildies was to ask me for a suitable tutor for a human priest I would probably have given them your name...

I know that it's "bad" RP to let other players standings within the community or their clever OOC posts influence the IC interactions but it probably does. We are all just humans (OOC) after all.

If first you don't succeed, then redefine success.

[Jeanpierre]

Some fair points. The plan I laid out, is perhaps the third or fourth iteration of the same source of inspiration. Each time, detail was added. Of course, at this point, it would seem much to be thrown in. I assure you I never placed that pressure on my mentors.

Yes, I needed a tutor. Why? Because.. when I started I was an entirely new roleplayer. I had 0 roleplay experience before wow and I was RP'ing Pierre for only a few weeks. I was looking for both a mentor IC and a chance to learn OOC.

Aside from that.. I felt a title should be earned. I felt such a title should be either "chosen" when rolling a character with the background, or played out through the community.
I wanted to build some things where I would try to invite the community to partake. At first just a mentor, but later the community as a whole.
The failure of that, is not what labels this community as self destructive but the failure of a project.

Where I bumped into a self destructive spirit, is that on one hand a community that tries to encourage roleplay, found itself breaking down that very thing because, in the end, they pull so hard on their IC perspective that no common ground can be found.

[Frostfeather]

Where I bumped into a self destructive spirit, is that on one hand a community that tries to encourage roleplay, found itself breaking down that very thing because, in the end, they pull so hard on their IC perspective that no common ground can be found.

You mean that the IC controversies between the guilds made it impossible to lay down some common guidelines about priesthood?

[Seranita]

hmm I know what you mean The times i rp'ed with jean.. he alwasy seemed at different levels of learning.. I always wonderd why.. such a shame this happend... chareshia was getting traning to become a master of shadow much like you in priestiness.. but my teacher suddenly dissapeard and stopped comming online... was most frustrating

[Jeanpierre]

You mean that the IC controversies between the guilds made it impossible to lay down some common guidelines about priesthood?

Certainly this was part of the issue and what I pointed at

[Maelmoor]

People are scared of changes, of new ideas and what for impact it would have on their characters, I believe quite a few have struggled cause of those reasons which is a bit of a shame, as people with fresh ideas and innovative approaches are fought down.

[Frostfeather]

You mean that the IC controversies between the guilds made it impossible to lay down some common guidelines about priesthood?

Certainly this was part of the issue and what I pointed at

Sorry for being a bit slow! In my defence I have virtually no idea what you round ears are up to, so things that might be obvious to you might not be to me.

It's very complex to accomplish a server wide change. Sure a reluctance to change might be one part of it. Another is that areas where the lore is vague enough so lore crafting has to be involved is always tricky business, and rightfully so. Those changes affects others people's RP. The problem is that those "other people" might have a vision that differs from yours. I don't know if I'm amongst those people that are against change. I don't like the tanarisi project for instance but on the other hand I think this idea looks wonderful. *shrug*

Best solution in a scenario like this would according to me be to start an order of priest where you could lay down the law. Sort of like the Christian monks of medieval Europe. Well the best solution would of course be to reroll kaldorei and start fiddling your druid robe.

***
So about the community. It saddens me a bit when many seem to think that the the community means the rest of the realm. We are all apart of it. We can not simply get away from it by pointing fingers at other guilds or players. We must do our part . Maximise your own fun and try to help others maximise theirs. It's a very frustrating and often very unrewarding to dedicate your time to other characters but we need to do it.

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