LGBT needs you!, y'know.. if you wanna help.

It's important to be PROUD of being gay because through history people were tortured, killed, prosicuted and mistreated due to their gender and in the world they still are. The fact a bunch of skinheads think they can crack some peoples heads in because they want to party? Regardless of it being a celebration of who we are. Is wrong, This " Ban " on pride parades is not anything to do with the improper nature of drinking in public. It's about the fact a scared mayor has given into the demands of bullys and ignorant tits. End of.

You can discuss how silly a pride parade is, once people aren't being bludgeoned and killed for wanting to have one.

grufftoof wrote:

Nayan wrote:

Nithel wrote:I'm in.

See you there!

I've got the COLOURED BEADS ready.

I'll get the anal beads.
Wait-

Vect, apart from the first sentence about why it's "important" to be proud of... what you like in your bedroom (which, to me, makes as much sense as "it's important to be proud about liking yoghurt because crocodiles are dangerous"), agreed.

But perhaps it should focus more on "skinheads cracking heads unpunished" and downplay the "oh we poor gay people" part? Because, frankly, that has NO importance whatsoever. Unless you'd be cool with them cracking black people's heads instead, or heterosexual people's heads, but it's bad because it's homosexual people's heads.

Doubt that's the case, though, so I suggest we keep this where it really is at: unnecessary and unpunished violence coupled with political muting.

Vect, shall we make a jewish parade because "It's important to be PROUD of being jewish because through history people were tortured, killed, prosecuted and mistreated due to being jewish."

Sorry, I don't mean to go on but that comment baffled me; the mayor banned Gay Pride Parades; he didn't start some sort of "Gays have no rights." campaign where everyone in Moscow can attack and kill any Gay they see. And it's hilarious how people who support this are like "This is more important guys!" compared to other things going on in the world.

Yes, make a Jewish festival about being proud. Maybe link it to one of the existing Jewish (holy day) festivals and have a procession through a major city? Or a party somewhere? You know... like happens already? A celebration of your Jewish heritage (ok, so this is someone else's Jewishness, as you're agnostic so you said). Perhaps you were Pakistani or Indian and wanted to party and dance at the Mela in Bradford or Leeds celebrating being proud to be an Asian Yorkshireman? Cool. Have a dance. Bring some coloured beads.

Clutching at the "why can't X group have this..." thing doesn't (always) work. It's a false argument and detracts from the point I believe you're trying to make regarding the Mayor etc.

What the Mayor has done isn't say "you have no rights you puff". What he has done is said "you have different rights because you're queer". I am talking about the right to have a legal demonstration/festival - as I am guessing that is covered under some Russian law, the way in which any large gathering in any major city tends to be.

The Mayoral office of Moscow has banned, or attempted to ban, the Pride Moscow march every year since 2006. Yet other showings and gatherings can happen in Moscow. But they're not a problem because...? As previously stated by the Mayoral Office:

"... all public expressions [by gays and lesbians] must be banned [...] They violate our rights... " So, you're entitled to your own opinions, everyone is. But if you make a public expression of your sexuality you are violating my rights how? Really, how? You can make a public expression of your faith (the Russian Orthodox church maybe?) and that's ok why then?

Please, make sure you don't hold your boyfriend's hand in public. Or kiss your girlfriend either. Because gay is catching... it makes me itch.

That this year was a particularly heavy hit year by the far, far right wing nutjobs that call Moscow (or anywhere) home for the Pride march is why the story has blown up so much. That and the continuing heavy handed stupidity of the Mayoral Office.

And, who is saying "this is more important"? Can someone only sign one petition (that's what was the request afterall) or discuss only one topic? Have people stated "this" is the "only" problem in the world?

C'mon...

"I may not agree with what you are saying, but I will defend your right to say it" - I like that almost as much as my quote from page 1.

Nithel wrote:Are we going to organise this for when we are one year without a government? I'm in.

We could do this on St-Verhagen from the VUB. It's not a gay pride thing... But it has trucks, music, booze, loose women, loose men.

Or we could just hold a gathering and enjoy better quality of beer in one of Brussel's pubs.

In Belgium, the oldest LGBT community is called 'Wrongly Parked' ;_;


@Jp: Can't we do both? I wouldn't mind enjoying a nice 'palette' with different kind of beers in Brussels and then go dance on decorated trucks with loose men and women!

Nithel wrote:
@Jp: Can't we do both? I wouldn't mind enjoying a nice 'palette' with different kind of beers in Brussels and then go dance on decorated trucks with loose men and women!

Sounds like a brilliant plan, there's a few places even I liked in Brussels. Even if Brussels is a bit uuuuuuugly. But there's very, very good beer to be had. And we get to have this "palette". And maybe some Kip Kap and other such things to nibble?! Oooh. You are naughty.

Quite.

Dont like brussels, made to eat them at christmas, horrid nasty greens

Dreth wrote:Dont like brussels, made to eat them at christmas, horrid nasty greens

If you hold your nose and swallow it quickly they're not that bad.

This thread needs more John Inman, obviously.

I wouldn't have any issue with someone celebrating their indentity. If I didn't approve, I just wouldn't go?

Identity is the issue here... but ive done enough sociology posts for one week XD

To the "what about white/english/hetro comment, I am a (white english hetro) There might be a case for changing the way of looking at identity so you dont feel a rasist for waving a flag at st georges. But the main thing is white/english/hetro is the "normal" group. White/english/gay or Black/english/hetro for example are compaired to normal, by default this makes a difference. (i am normal, you are not hetro/not white/not english)

It works for more ways than that too, LARPer for example. Not an identity that is concidered normal, maybe there are "types of people" who LARP. Im sure to an outsider there is a typical ideal of what a LARPer is. However (im not a LARPer btw but would sooooo love to XD) Im sure if you get a group of LARPers they are all individual. My point... the majority group are always concidered to be individuals and "normal" by society, but any minority group be it a racial, social, sexual, or even past time related group get a common set of attibutes placed on them, normally negitive ones at that. (camp/geek ect)

This by the way is a process called Othering, placing collective ideals on a group of individuals even though they share just one thing in common.

So in summery it isnt really appropate IMO to concider an unfairness that gays get a march and straights dont until, there is complete normilsation of the homosexual community in socity at large.

(please note, I am talking of the UK, no idea what happens over the waters XD)

Hm.. Ain't always that simple Ember. While I agree to some extent, you can't ignore the fact that "things" have their space. The parade comes at a price. Roads are blocked, noise is made, traffic is jammed... you get endless flyers and god knows what other crap thrown in your face..

And that can not be belittled as if its meaningless. If that's meaningless, then being called shit in your face because of your sexual orientation is meaningless as well.

That said, I don't oppose the parade. I think parades or "parties" with a certain theme aren't all that negative.

Dreth wrote: the main thing is white/english/hetro is the "normal" group.

Maybe we should start a support and equal rights organizations for people who, otherwise, wouldn't have an equal rights organization and support group.

There's a whole councelling/sensibilitation/guidance/activity/support program for women in my company. I think it's awesome but... I want one too!

Jeanpierre wrote:

Dreth wrote: the main thing is white/english/hetro is the "normal" group.

Maybe we should start a support and equal rights organizations for people who, otherwise, wouldn't have an equal rights organization and support group.

There's a whole councelling/sensibilitation/guidance/activity/support program for women in my company. I think it's awesome but... I want one too!

Now we are onto gender politics .... Can we go back to gay rights, much less complicated subject!

Sure sure.

grufftoof wrote:Even if Brussels is a bit uuuuuuugly.

That's ok, so is Nithel. And I hate Nithel. So much hate. Soooo much. Hate? Nay... Loathe!

And Vect, can you please answer me one question? Why is that "your identity"? Have you seen many heterosexuals claiming their sexual preferences are "their identity"? It's part of who you are. Hardly an "identity". And I'm fairly sure there's a ton of people that share the same sexual preferences, political ideas, nativity, hell even football club preference.. but.. that doesn't "tag" them who they are. They are very different from one another. So how is that such a hardcore part of a person's identity, if you could explain that to me?

Isn't that the whole point of equality, after all? To not give a flying fuck about WHAT you are, because it doesn't matter, because we are one and the same level regardless of that? So what's the point in self-discriminating to... fight discrimination? I find it baffling, honestly. That's what I mean every time, when I say "homosexuals are not unique snowflakes, stop demanding to be treated differently because of your sexual preferences". I don't mean "I hate homosexuals", I don't mean "homosexuals are the only ones who are not unique snowflakes", I don't mean "homosexuals are bad", I don't mean "homosexuals are stupid", I don't mean "potatoes wreak of cinnamon and garlic fragrance", I don't mean "Barcelona totally plays amazing football", I don't mean "Martians attacked my dog". I mean exactly what I said. As ALWAYS.

There is NO point in "being proud" or "parading" or "cheering" or "receiving special treatment by others" for being homosexual because it very simply is NOTHING to separate anyone from anyone else. It's like doing all those things to... celebrate one has no nose. Because, you know, kids mocked him at school and he's been mistreated, the rest of the world "has" to admit he's "equal, but a bit more equal than the rest, because some morons gave him a hard time at some point". It's nonsensical. It's wrong. You are equal. You do what you want. Good for you and hooray, but I don't seem to remember the last time anyone has praised me or assured me I'm good because I'm heterosexual. You might say "yeah, but that's the norm!". Ok. So how come gay people don't do that either? It's not the norm for them. Besides... isn't that what you want? To establish (although in today's world, that's mostly established already) as "equally normal as anyone else"? How the f* is that "equally normal" if you require "special" treatment and "special" pride? O.o

Life sucks, get on with it. It does not suck more for you than for me, no matter who you bed. We all have our plights. One's plights might be another's joke, but that's how it is. We always feel "our" problems are "more important" than "others' problems" because we live them. That does not make them "more important" or "more special" to anyone but you. And that applies to everyone, not just you. (And do note, please, I am not using "you" as a personal reference, I mean it in general. "You" as much as every other person.)

So yeah... what part exactly did I miss that "defines" me as my "identity" being "white, male, greek, heterosexual"? Is that who I "am"? That's the most "important" parts of me? You really believe that? Should I go out in the streets cheering for hours and singing "I am white, male, greek, heterosexual and I'M PROUD OF IT"? And if so, how long do you think it'll be before I get thrown into a white room with a nice white jacket that has buttons on the back? Frankly, equality is more than fine, but overprotectiveness for fear of being seen as "politically incorrect" is one of the major plights of today's world. People end up suppressing a dislike for "x" group of people because they are forced to support them to not be tagged because of political correctness. I'll tell you a secret. There is nothing correct about political correctness. It's the same as someone having a stack of porn DVD's in his closet but gasping and protesting if they see a hint of a nipple in tv. It's hypocrisy instead of frank and honest conversation and compromise that might lead somewhere other than violent outbursts. And, for the record, that is NOT in any way justifying said skinheads. Parade all you want, it just doesn't make it a good idea, a necessity or reasonable.

This was not about the question "should gay people parade?". This was about "skinheads attacking gay parade and police bucketing gay people and ignoring the skinheads, practically accepting the latter's demands to mute their freedom of speech". If you wish to keep discussing (and I apologize for my part on that side of the conversation, didn't think it'd dominate the thread so much) why gay people should/shouldn't "parade" or "feel proud" or anything, I personally suggest making another thread about that, as it's a different topic altogether.

Emberstone/Vectoria wrote:I If I didn't approve, I just wouldn't go?

That statement would make sense if it was a Gay Pride Houseparty; but it isn't. It's a parade blocking off half a city; you can't avoid it.

Right, so even though this discussion is nice and all, this is not why the topic was acreated.

Emberstone/Vectoria wrote:Just a plea for anyone interested.

Are you not interested in signing, or taking interest in why has been brought up, then continue on. Discussion of why, when, where and what can be taken to a different forum, or a different thread! ^_^

Let me not have to lock this because rants are started, and aggravation is created between people.

Just another reminder from the Mods!

//Morty

Well then, I've looked into this thing a bit and I was lucky enough to get in contact with someone who lives in Moscow, and who also has insight on what went down in 2006 and what's going on right now.

For one, the day the organisers for the Gay Pride Parade have been hellbent on holding, was also the day for a parade held by the army and law enforcement for discharged borderguards. It may seem trivial, but I guess Russia's a bit more keen on its borders that encompass two continents and twice as much as other countries. The reason for this was that 'The parade would raise more awareness through provocative organising and practice as well", which I believe the local police force force weren't happy with either, hence we have nice footage of police officers or even army personnel manhandling the paraders.

Another thing that occured was how the Pride Parade was first organised. Before the parade itself being held, the organisers were invited to a talk show to lend their voice regarding this controversial event as alot of Moscow's locals disapproved its place and time, not just the fact what it's about. During this talk show, the organisers were also faced with making reasons for the Pride Parade, as since then, and to this day, Moscow has numerous clubs dedicated to homosexuals, they have their own daily newspaper and their own website as well of which none were never questioned or touched by anyone apart from pitiful attempts by radical rightwing activists (or whatever they call them there), These factors were acknowledged, so the reasons were about civil rights, freedom of sexual preferences, and generally the tantra the LGBT community lists down given such an occasion. Additionally, gay artists of various kinds are also operating in Moscow, making plays, sculptures, paintings and such without any prosecution (and since they also deny any connection to the Gay Pride Parades, or don't even wish to attend them due to various reasons way before the parade was even a reality in Moscow, they aren't being oppressed in any way either), the only issue rising when there are polls made for galleries for intentionally provocative works, which the locals are generally against and wouldn't allow.

At one comment however, that was percieved as a snide or offensive one, on of the organisers threw a massive hissy fit, barging out of the studio like a madman and went on a raging rant and emotional breakdown, whilst it was recorded by many western news reporters. Just to add to this, the organisers are a group of 3-4 people who work in the same league and also they cover all organisation for such events, the media and press coverage overall, moreso to keep this thing alive than to raise awareness.

Anyhow, the parade was about to be held: However, unlike what we first thought it'd be like (raging halfnaked people on trucks having wild orgies covered in anal beads and high on crack or low on bloodsugar), it was about 30~ people, dressed as average civilians, hanging around the heart of the city they demanded to be reserved, blocked and barred off to hold the 'parade', waving signs and transparents on occasion or shouting at bystanders / goers about why gay privileges are more important and they need the awareness otherwise homosexuals die out. Due to the parade being banned by this point after a large margin of the locals said they don't bloody want one, the 'paraders' were arrested and towed away, something which every Western and LGBT news coverage recorded, showed and have been on about quite alot, along with the protesters of old 80-91 year old religious coots wearing icons and doing singalongs.

The Pride Parade had 30 attenders, out of which the main organiser couldn't attend due to family issues. And they were there as a random rabble, with angry discharged soldiers at one side and the antagonising public on the other, whilst those that were supposed to be redeemed by the parade were at home facepalming at the city at that moment, along with the law enforcement who weren't just having their own parade, but were also supposed to prepare for _alot_ of protestors (aforementioned skinhead bullies and the general population of Moscow) at the same time.

Just thought this issue needs some input from 'the other side' as well. Up to this date, the parade not being held is an issue being kept alive by the 3-4 organisers and some of their followers, while the rest of the local gay community has never and still doesn't give a flying shit, nor the locals, or the government. Seems everyone's happy apart from the said cluster of people and apparently everyone who doesn't even live there.

Edit: Another source also confirms that before 2006, the Gay Pride Parade was clashing with not the borderguard, but some aerial defense force's (I seriously don't know the word for this one) discharged trooper's annual parade, during which said troops are drunk, violent and would start a fight with anyone that bypasses them, let alone a pride parade. This was the government's fault however, as this suggested route (and crossing between the two) was the only viable way to hold both and not cripple the whole city. The new leading party was the one that first banned the parade as it was causing so much shit it wasn't worth it. Not to mention the organisers at that point insisted on a route that was to avoid the other parade, yet would fuck up more of the city than before. And by insisted, it meant they either do this or they may as well be dragged away or shot on the spot, raging at the fact they can't make the parade because the army vets / law enforcement brigades /borderguards weren't happy about their traditional thing being fucked over.

\o

Thank you for that digging Vondun.

Well, I'm sorry, but that would be amazingly low of them, if it holds truth. I still say no extremist should be exercising violence from other groups, I still support freedom of speech, I still support equal rights, but that would be abuse and I don't support abuse of privileges.

Ya ... I think I pretty much agree with Nayan for the most part. Although, I don't think Vect was implying that our sexuality defines who we are: I think he meant that it's part of our identity. But I've never been to a pride parade myself, be it gay pride, black pride, arab pride, thai bride, or whatever, so I'm not really sure what they're all about anyways.

So why should less Pride parading be a bad thing?

More to the point there are alot of large blocks of text and hard words for a complaint of traffic being stopped once a year...