Ciritisism wanted. Changes made.

Due to constuctive critisism changes are made. We have made the image on the tabard white, so it shows better. We do not use our uniform unless on duty.

Atm.. We have found 1/4 people we must find for an event not arranged by us. To do that we need to follow clues from a libram, we need to hand the people we suspect to be 3/4 remaining people an item and see if they can "change" it. If we could have done this without the use of our uniforms we would, but as we do not know how the person will react or do not have any right to broadcast it all, as that very well could lead to 3/4 people vanishing before the event and we oocly do not know who they are.. We use our tabards and our uniforms for the approach on the suspected people.

Stormwind Operations is not an old guild at all. And it has had its hard times and a 3rd change of leadership. If it was not for a certain Council Minister behind the screen encouraging for things to go on I do not think I would have had the stomach to try. The new agenda has been delayed a lot as "everyone" more or less vanished in the direction of: --->Duskwood. So did our alts or mains.

Now.. We do not have many members and those we have are not online that much. Some have issues with our uniforms, some dont.. Some do not see us without it that much as we all have real life and other chars to tend to as well. Some suggests that we infiltrate other guilds with our alts and I have heard to many times how metagaming that is. So we relay on reports. From our members, from other people.

As we in the most have 3 chars online for a brief same period each day. I ask people to be patient. This thread is for reasonable critisism and a plea of understanding that we do as hard as we can with what we got atm. So if there is more huge needs for anyone to make us a discussion again in a negative manner. Do ask us instead why we are wearing the uniform when you see it.

If we could keep our working identities hidden and not be metagamed attacked or greeted by our char names, despite the uniform or not.. Hell, we would do it right away. But metagaming is a trouble enough as it is.

"shh dont say more there is an agent here " *gestures to the causal dressed person in the corner. Or /attempts to kill *incert name* I know who you are moahaha.

So we try to walk the line between avoiding metagaming and realism. I assume the bad evil people feel the same way. And I am very sure that we do not "recognise" them as often as we should have. We are back online, out of Duskwood and the new agenda will be set in motion.
And we do try to lure people to us so we do not just sit on a bridge waiting for things to go smooth. So again: Ask first please instead of assuming we are staring at a wall on the steps of the cathedral just to show off.. It could be someone held an item to see if it would change somehow and dced twice.. As well:)

**Added: ***
This may come off as an immature brat ranting.. But after 3 weeks of hearing about how our uniforms is a problem and the lack of actually being able to conceal an identity without using some kind of mask that covers the whole face and not look like a butcher at the same time.. It is getting tiredsome. If it had been taken with us, to us I would not mind but getting whispered about it from other people claiming he or she said this or that and all in all.. I found this to be more proper so perhaps the lack of need to discuss negative things about the guild could end..

We do not wear all black uniforms with red shining eyes now 24/7. Still the negative talk goes on. We have other outfits, we will use the leathermask with the red eyes if we need to swap between our working outfits ( as we have more then one) as well, so this is not implying we wont ever wear black again or look "scary". And wearing cloth as an agent who should be if needed in a situation, able to fight and not get stabbed to death.. Leather narrows down the cloth options some. New agenda means no uniforms unless in special event situations or direct arrests. Our new event means: no tabards, no legal arrestes and no dark scary cloths... Just lack enough people online to start it this week.

The new agenda and its reasons will of course not be more public then what as was previously posted in the registery


Critisism that is reasonable can be posted below.

Can only say that I hope you lot keep it up, it is a very good guild idea and even quite original for our server if I am not mistaking too much.

It is but atm it is met with more instant spam of WTF that uniform again... Then "Oh.. .somethings up.." Considering one has not been wearing the uniform that much at all the past weeks it gets draining. So this is a washing up attempt before any other recruits gets scared away from negative publisity and no we wont give up. Just had not expected as much negativity as one gets when leading a evil guild. Which is loads.

Well, I don´t see anything wrong with wearing the uniforms and such, it adds to the feel of you lot actualy being agents not just "bob, the guy who has a knife hidden up his crack."

I adore you for those words right now:) Still this thread is for critisism. Pats on the back like yours there is also welcome of course. So thank you

Metagaming. You'll always get it, sadly.

In a completely different community (San Andreas MultiPlayer, RP community), similiar factions (there used to be factions, not guilds) still face the same problem, and the point is, after all the attempts to call for realistic roleplay didn't end up well.

I think the main problem is concluded in players' attitude towards their character. There's a certain type of roleplayers that realize, and can clearly see a strict line between themselves and their characters, and such roleplayers usually follow the rule "There's no win in RolePlay, just roleplaying properly is already a win".

While the majority, the rest, simply skip the aspects they don't seem to like.

I've had some random roleplay with a cultist (no clue that was a cultist, IC) and we've witnessed a fight in the middle of the Square, infront of the Chapel (Yeah, quite irrealistic, but well, since THAT happened, we have to RP it). As soon as we delivered the wounded elf into the Chapel, she obviously decided roleplaying being wounded is not for her, suddenly pretending there's a magical poison in some bag, that wasn't here but spawned as soon as she needed it. Well, neither of us (me 'n the cultist) felt like forcing her to roleplay something she didn't like, but she obviously skipped the aspect of realism.

This is just one case that I've witnessed myself after returning to the alliance Roleplay after quite a long break, and the point is, until people change their attitude, metagaming, irrealism is still going to be here.

This whole idea of creating the forums is something I liked from the beginning, as it's certainly going to attract adequate RPers and might create a more stable, friendly community with some authority \ respect in it.



Must say, I really like your guild aspect (Kind'a obvious, I'm playin' a rogue for 4 years, plus that's the theme I like in any (MMO-)RPG.

Can only second Bennedict's words after all - don't give up.

Indeed, its a good guild and im sure it will come back again, were here to pat you on the back and help keep you going !
Metagaming, sadly, -will- always be around... It can be reduced, but not gotten rid of, like the French.

Might it not be a good idea to include a mask in the uniform? Unless people saw you change outfit, there is no real way of knowing who you are without metagaming.

Aragoss and the lowbie rogue (Someone around 30) are quite active, I see 'em keeping surveillance as citizens at the cathedral square and rarely around the city. They don't really look like agents sometimes, and that's what I love about it.

The real agent would never wear shiny rogueish armor unless it's a battle. ;p

I don't understand what exactly you are trying to say, could you try to nail it down a bit?

You need to find some (specific) people and you are having a hard time because people metagame you?

Or is this about your uniform? Wether you should be allowed to wear whatever you like or you have to look guard-ish?

It's all together, Mord. She's thinking of multiple things at the same time, because inside her mind she can see all the relations to one topic... which is an attribute I have as well, most of the time.

Nailing it down one by one:
"1. Constructive criticism is welcome, we are willing to change things around a bit.
2. The dressing code topic is both overnitpicked and wrongly channeled.
3. We're still small in size, which makes events hard. Which gets even harder when people metagame us. Which becomes even harder when people don't bother participating/interacting/suggesting, but instead gossip about what colour pants we wear.
4. Is there anything else, be it a suggestion or a criticism (on benevolent grounds) we should hear?"

That's ofc my own interpretation, and is in no way binding to the OP. ^^

---

As for my reply, I'm still trying to motivate myself to login or stay online more than a couple of hours. You know I like the concept as it is, no issues here. As for expanding.. well.. you either hunt down people ICly, or encourage people to join on one of their chars... not much else you can do other than persevere on your Concept

I know and yes Nayan narrowed it down nice and easy:)
1. Constructive critisism welcome - discussions in private channels with our uniforms as the topic/spamming the second we put it on for actual work use ingame - not welcome.

2. The critisism has been responded to. Gossip not.

3. Metagaming, attempts to avoid it = uniform.

Shortly said, if people could refrain from badmouthing over trivial matters such as uniforms and stick to actually complaining when theres something "really bad" going on. I should take it as a good thing though if thats all there is to complain about I guess^^

I like how this has basicly turned into a clever "It's that guy, you all know who it is, but I won't actually say it so I haven't done anything wrong"

The whole 'gossip' stuff was my fault mainly I'll admit. I brought up a one line nibble against the whole uniforms thing in Vanguard and it would seem 'somebody' decided to run screaming that we had started a secret cult dedicated to the destruction of Gotham Ci- Stormwind Operations. Nobody is gossiping behind your back to my knowledge, I am yet to actually see anybody else complain about the guild in public.

With a guild tag you are always going to be metagamed. Always. Even the best, veteran roleplayers will do it. Example? If your character is being stalked through Stormwind you might realise IC you cannot just turn around to face him (that's metagaming) but you purposely avoid dark alleys and non-populated areas just to avoid it (You may not fancy doing that roleplay there and then for example). Even if it isn't obvious, or intended, it's still there.

The same applies to 'law enforcment' guilds. If people do not wish for their characters to get lept on by half of Blazing Sh- no, Scarlet Cr- No wait, uhm, Disciples of Light (???) or Stormwind Operations (A job I am yet to see one member stood in the cathedral do when they're in uniform but that is another story). Where was I? If people don't want their characters to be caught they won't commit a crime infront of a known guard guild. Whether they are off-duty, out of uniform or otherwise when they can instead do so elsewhere. It applies to everything uniforms or not and it isn't something you can solve as long as you have <Stormwind Operations> or any other familiar guild tag under your name.

Your uniform was thieved from Ledgic, I am now forced to wear Tier 9.

I will have my revenge

Just use the B~ Defias set and some neat mask. Atleast it's still an uniform looking like "your current" but not as intimidating (or whatever the reason for nag was!) =p

Anyway, Good luck with.. uhm, this! I don't know your guild enough to state opinion.

Where was I? If people don't want their characters to be caught they won't commit a crime infront of a known guard guild. Whether they are off-duty, out of uniform or otherwise when they can instead do so elsewhere. It applies to everything uniforms or not and it isn't something you can solve as long as you have <Stormwind Operations> or any other familiar guild tag under your name.

Some people might have been marked for "Wanted". Their faces or somesuch been seen and etc. Are they stupid enough to walk without disguise then they can suit themself.

If there's one thing I learned from my short time with the Lichbanes, is that nothing works as good as intensive contact with your enemy. People usually don't want their evil character to be caught in doing when they didn't plan them to be caught. Contacting them on forehand and proposing a certain plot might work and avoid metagaming and godemoting, as well as giving you more active rp.

Just a suggestion, I hope it helps.

For...You're meant to be spies right? You're meant to be "in the crowd", "behind the scenes" and totally inconspicuous. Why on earth would you wear anything that would even slightly give away your identity?

Seriously, just wear -normal- clothes, "hide" a certain restricted amount of blades about your person and take the benefit of being practically invisible instead of the practicality of being in leather spy stuff. You could walk around normal as anyone with normal friends, a normal job, normal! Like the way the Blade uses it as a front for "syndicate" activity, -noone- suspects them because they aren't trying to hide!

You could even create GHI items and a OOC or IC channel, outside of ANY GUILD ACTIVITY! To completely eliminate the floating name. Some people could completely ignore the spy within you till it's needed...Imagine someone that you have spent tons of IC and OOC time with suddenly going ninja on someone's arse after cracking a case? How much that could develop -both- your characters?
I mean, even meeting in different places set up via secret mail to communicate spies on a regular basis if you wanted to? Make it a off-guild society, like KoA is attempting to do with Arathorian RP, and like Imanuel did on Sophyra with the "Underground", project.

There are plenty of addon's and ways to do your entire concept without the need of a guild. Which allows for anyone that RPs with you to take upon different situations and occupations to vary the RP alot more, with -alot- more people involved and recruited.

Even the lack of tabard is easily sorted out...I mean how difficult is it to create some sort of uniform that hardly has to be used that fits without any tabard...

--

Even if you didn't want to do this, keep your IC front with the members you already have, if they want to stay. I still think the rambling I typed up there makes a valid point about ways you could continue and enhance your project.

Gunnell/Graham/Alefadr wrote:I like how this has basicly turned into a clever "It's that guy, you all know who it is, but I won't actually say it so I haven't done anything wrong"

The whole 'gossip' stuff was my fault mainly I'll admit. I brought up a one line nibble against the whole uniforms thing in Vanguard and it would seem 'somebody' decided to run screaming that we had started a secret cult dedicated to the destruction of Gotham Ci- Stormwind Operations. Nobody is gossiping behind your back to my knowledge, I am yet to actually see anybody else complain about the guild in public.

With a guild tag you are always going to be metagamed. Always. Even the best, veteran roleplayers will do it. Example? If your character is being stalked through Stormwind you might realise IC you cannot just turn around to face him (that's metagaming) but you purposely avoid dark alleys and non-populated areas just to avoid it (You may not fancy doing that roleplay there and then for example). Even if it isn't obvious, or intended, it's still there.

The same applies to 'law enforcment' guilds. If people do not wish for their characters to get lept on by half of Blazing Sh- no, Scarlet Cr- No wait, uhm, Disciples of Light (???) or Stormwind Operations (A job I am yet to see one member stood in the cathedral do when they're in uniform but that is another story). Where was I? If people don't want their characters to be caught they won't commit a crime infront of a known guard guild. Whether they are off-duty, out of uniform or otherwise when they can instead do so elsewhere. It applies to everything uniforms or not and it isn't something you can solve as long as you have <Stormwind Operations> or any other familiar guild tag under your name.

Gunnell first off. If this had been only you, I would not have poked you about this matter last night. So this isnt a - oh its that guy only - . Unless you got a shit loads of accounts that is?
I did not point a finger here as there is not enough fingers to point in all directions.

"For...You're meant to be spies right? You're meant to be "in the crowd", "behind the scenes" and totally inconspicuous. Why on earth would you wear anything that would even slightly give away your identity?"

- We already do that.
- When we are to get someone arrested, or when we have to use the uniform to prove we have the right to demand answers. Then we do.

The nagging Nygarth isnt all the non uniform work we do. It is the nagging that comes the second we are out on - official buisness- this is about.

"You could walk around normal as anyone with normal friends, a normal job, normal! Like the way the Blade uses it as a front for "syndicate" activity, -noone- suspects them because they aren't trying to hide!"
- This is what we normally do. The uniform and nicknames are used to keep our characters - normal - life hidden. So we wont be jumped on in a dark alley by those we - watch and collect intel about -

Right if it helps (and you know most of this already Ind) here's how I RP'd Jayse's 'Agent' side:

1) Establish a persona in the city: He works at the blade known as 'Soap' dressed in general plain clothes or half casual armour. Bartending and generally getting to know everyone/picking up on the rumourmill for anything that might be relevant to his longterm goal.

2) When 'off-hours' on his job he would be casually going for walks, hanging about public areas for anyone acting suspiciously/picking up on conversations. He'd also frequent a circuit of other 'hotspots' within the city he knows the less conspicuous (spelling) things would go on.. (A dark sphere meeting in the old town alleys or known figutives (groups) liasing in the docklands out of the way.

3) Carry hidden weapons: He carries a pistol and usualy two daggers, one in the boot and the other under the cuff of his shirt. Anything else he wouldnt be able to hide and look like a regular citizen. Of course if he came across anything he is very much 'unarmoured' so will need to employ either a little cunning or generally hang back just enough to stay out of the way and get a read on the situation.

4) Dark armour at night: Is the pirmary rule I used for him. When he's on an operation he will prefer to undergo it at nighttime when visibility is very low (the town is dark at night beleive it or not, turn your gamma down. He wears his black armour as it serves the best purpose to stay unseen as he moves. He will also never move along the street unless he absolutley -has- to. Favouring moving across the rooftops with an emote near a wall, timelapse and stealth. Then moving along the gameworld walls ect..

5) Agency Alias: When he's in full gear he goes by the alias 'Peasant' mainly becuase his chosen voice is that of a common/ineloquent/almost sadistic village serf.

6) Show your presence: When he's in stealth its for a good reason, however I always emote what he's doing and depending on the situation give envornmental cues that would perhaps alert his presence. (again this is a big layer of trust on the other people not to metagame)

7) Never give your real name.. Good reasons for this are obvious.. If the OTS found out who he was and what he was doing.. along with the general populous and worse his enemies. Things would get dicey -very- quickly.

In essence I think you get the jist. His RP is that mainly of the lore behind the Stormwind Assassins part of SI:7 which is why he never joined SWO and worked in unison. He wears a peice of white clothing with a red thread (white shirt with thread on the cuff) to signify subtly who he is to anyone else that may be RPing the same thing. Half the fun is not knowing who else in the community has the same goal as you. The other half is trying to get your job done without getting found out. hence the reason for the layered aliases. It gives a good line of RP for the 'darkside' to try and perhaps look into who this guy is if theyre so inclined to do so.

All I can think of for now but there's more, I just need coffee.

Cheers

I know Jayse and thank you:)

Though we have faced one problem that I am not sure how to deal with atm. When joining Stealth was not to be abused. How ever rogues do stealth as a skill in the game. When I poked people about writing certain things down in our archieves the instant replies was:

"I do not hope that was heard when stealthing as that does not count"
Now I have never my self (as this is my second rogue and I have not generally rped with rogues in the past 4 years + ish mainly) not allowed a stealthed or prowled person to use what he or she has heard when spying unseen. Which does lead me to wonder if this view of stealth being cheating and "metagaming" is an over all view for people? As I do not see people considering a "blinking" mage, a charging warrior, a soul draining warlock etc as cheating.

We have actually taken it into effect that we are - not to abuse stealth- . And by that I do not just mean not stealthing inside a very lightfilled tavern. But also in general for intelligence gathering. As this really takes a punch out of the gathering of information as one can not get as much intel without truly hiding I removed that rule again.

For even if I my self have not always been to happy about people hearing things I thought no one did, it is exciting, it gives more elements of suprises which again is what rp is all about:)

When I'm roleplaying on Morela, I don't use the stealth button unless I'm hiding behind something, or at a great distance, if a person turns around/looks in my direction, I'll whisper them and say they may have seen something/someone there, or do an emote indicating how the person may see something. Of course, I may avoid this if I think the person will power emote or metagame as a result.

I find it rather silly to go "I hope that was heard while stealthing, as that does not count". Stealth is not only a game mechanic but also an actually skill. Rogues/druids have the ability to hide out of vision, using their surroundings a lot better than any other class could for this purpose. I see nothing wrong with using IC knowledge gained that way. If anything, it adds a bit more realism to the RP, since normally, discussions that shouldn't be heard, would be whispered or take place at very remote places. People speaking in /s about things that shouldn't be heard by anyone but the person/s they are talking with, have themselves to blame if they are heard. The carebear mode is also rather silly. People should be aware that there might be a stealther around without any warnings. After all, people with secrets are supposed to be cautious if not paranoid.

I agree with Mandui on this one.

"It does not count"? >_> That sparkled up an image of two 6yearold kids playing hide and seek and one despising losing, consequently ranting "TAHT DOES NOT COUNT, YOU WERE CHEATING!!!"

Anyway. If people want to "not count" stealth, they might as well find a way to prevent /say and /emote from being seen through walls, and learn to ignore people behind a wall even when they see their nameplate. Eavesdropping in stealth, with all the discussion that can be made about whether it's abused or not, is not to be "dismissed" with the reasoning "it does not count". It will not count if both agree to it, neither of the two has the necessary grounds to decide on their own, as it's interacting.

Same goes on the "shh dont say more there is an agent here". My reply would probably be something like "oh? Where? *peers around*" combined with an ooc whisper "and how exactly would your character know what my guild is, pray tell? -.-" or something. I hate it when people abuse game mechanics for their own "benefits" (if one can ever "benefit" from his pixels having an advantage over other pixels..)

That's my two copper, at least.