The results of the talk about Silvermoon

First of all, let me say thank you all for taking part. At it's peak I think we reached 20, I didn't think there would be that much interest.

Secondly, from the discussion, most if not all of us were in favour of reforming the Silvermoon Council in some shape or form, and that is what the poll is about. Be aware, that creating a Council will give Elves the right to pass IC laws for the city, and those of any race not adhering to them will be arrested and detained, before a fair trial is given at a new Court we will help create. Councillors would not PowerRP, they too would obey the laws, and would be arrested should they be found guilty of something. Also, to prevent the same mistake that happened to the last Council, which fell apart mostly due to inactivity, there would be ooc elections every six months or so. Obviously, SIlvermoon being something of a tyranny, democratic elections can't take place IC, but we'd think of a plausible IC reason for removing inactive Councillors nearer the time. Vote as you will, but please, only vote if you are a Blood Elf, as the Council will only reform IC with enough support from the Sin'dorei. If you do vote, please put down any people you want to put forward as a Councillor (if you do vote yes).

Inter-guild and cross-faction RP was discussed, and I'm looking into making some big events centred around Silvermoon, as well as perhaps some sort of campaign against Gilneas *nods to Worgen*. I'd like to point out that it's not all doom and gloom. Thursday evenings can be occupied by everyone in Dalaran, where all are welcome at the inn, regardless of race.

I'm sure I've forgotten some things, but all in all, I think we've begun the journey to Silvermoons recovery.

I voted for a mixture of the two, and as it's a vague-ish option I'd like to note that I voted that way because I do think ICly a council should be made only of the three mentioned groups. However, that might not be plausible within the RP community, as excellent candidates may be able to put themselves forward who aren't among those groups. I would really like to see a Silvermoon council stick to the lore-approved groups in power as much as possible, but with the possibility of exceptions.

Also, thank you very much Abulos for arranging that conversation. It seemed to me like it was productive, and even if I'm only a fledgeling blood elf RPer, it was good to see all sorts of guilds and opinions coming together to speak maturely and to bring about new, straightforward ideas such as how to form a new council.

And also, I appreciate your mention of the Jewel in Dalaran on Thursdays. I was so pleased to see blood elves (and a few Forsaken) there tonight, and I'm looking forward to the chance to expand that RP to more people of both factions as a casual gathering place. I'd appreciate the word being spread to anyone that readers might think interested, as my knowledge of Horde RPers is still sadly in its infancy.

The conversation was indeed interesting and I hope that it will revive some of the Sin'dorei spirit, especially in its capitol.

About the council. Yes, I experienced the rise and fall of the last attempt and sadly enough I was able to tell rather early it won't make it far. It became evident during the early stages already, even from the perspective of an observer. One of the most prominent issues with such a concept, apart from the lore difficulties that one may encounter, is the clash of IC and/or OOC interests of those who wish to be part of it.

Admittedly the role in such a RP concept is a rather prestigious one and that not only ICly. People tend to get too (passive) aggressive or overly defensive when the IC qualifications of their character are questioned, which often leads to OOC conflicts. Yet many (if not most) of those who do accept to partake begin to lose their motivation not long after the concept is launched and they have realized that it actually requires some work to keep it going. Being able to avoid such conflicts, and furthermore being aware beforehand that something like this inevitably demands time and effort, would greatly help in having the concept thrive. Having the promotion of RP as priority #1 should make this a lot easier.

With that said, I hope that this attempt will be successful, that the elves will stop being so scattered and take up on the task to form a union of sorts, making SMC a pleasurable and lively RP hub

The main reason for this council is having blood elf guilds work together. So I'm against option one, because that only lets the BK/Magisters/Farstrider know how to behave. But at the same time there shouldn't be a "minister of culture", unless he/she can make events that enforce Sin'dorei culture.

You shouldn't take this too far and create lots of ministers, in which half of them don't really do anything.

Good luck and hopefully this thorough pre-planning will work out better than the rather rushed former "council".

I foresee some issues working with a certain guild that seems to contain many a hero, as described in the discussion yesterday.

Also, rather than creating a huge bureaucracy from the start, I'd think that it'll be better to go with a few seats in this council at first and then expand later as needed.

I voted for the mixture. I do think that we should not forget the groups in power made by lore but also we should think of seats that add something for the Silvermoon community. For example minister of defence (BK leader), minister of magic (Magisters), minister of environment (Farstrider), minister of culture (whoever culture favoring belf), minister of foreing affairs (race issues). And these titles i just pulled out of my head so dont take them too seriously.
And to avoid powerhungry belves to fight about who is the most important minister they should all be equal and maybe a chairman who does not have any authority but to make sure the council meetings go smoothly and everyone has been given opportunity to present their matters.

I vote also for the mixture since just Farstrides, Blood Knights and Magisters are a bit constraining.
From IC point, Im proponent of the council to be really a council of the Regent lord Lor'thema Theron, e.g. his auxiliary ruling body helping him in ruling different aspects of our kingdom. Since there are already NPCs as leaders of few SinDorei factions, I like the idead that coucilors for these will infact act as being deputies or being delegated by their respective leaders to represent their opinions in the council. This would also made these more prestigious position less powerfull, since you're just a deputy not ...let's say...leader of the Farstrider aka the main bulk of Silvermoon armed forces.
As for other position I'd kind of like the idea of calling them in some more original name which wold suit the current Blood elven society like instead of mminister of culter we could have the position of "High Censor" for example.

...and of course let's start with less and prehaps add another positions if found worhty than thinking in a big way from the begining.

Since I am highly inactive right now, both from the game and my belth, I won't vote.
But my input would be to follow the lines of the lore. Have councilors that make sense with the bigger factions. Don't throw in anything that doesn't seem to male sense from a Belf point of view but does from a human.
For example "Culture" for me doesn't seem as high on the agenda as a Censor as posted above. Yes, they care about the culture, but from what I see it they feel it is up to the induviduals to care and nurture it, within limits.
As I see it the council would most likely consist of a rep from the Magisters, one from the Blood Knights, one from the Farstriders. Then maybe a minister for external, and one for internal affairs.
One for each of the three bigger factions of the city, and two that sort of "represents" the Regent Lord. (Yes, he was a Farstrider, but they have a new leader. And the Blood Knght leader is never in the ruling chamber)

I'd say keep the council below 6, since the smaller the number the easier it will be to have working meetings without people missing. (And with seven, since six is a number that will mean some issues are settled by lottery it'll be far to big considering the belf populance at large of players).
Stress the fact to everyone considering it that these meetings will happen on a regular basis. (But there will always have to be some agenda, holding a meeting with nothing to discuss is catastrophic).
Also, stress that these people will have to work, and come up with things concerning their specific areas. Stress it to the amounts that people who are "Well, 'Minister of the Blood Knights' sounds like a mighty fine thing to have!" but only care for the title, not the actuall position and responsibilites realise that, no they don't want that.

Just my two coppers.

I'm really in favour of any type of Council, provided that those who enter it take it seriously and it is done in true Blood Elf style ICly. OOC is of course a different matter, but I am not sure we can pull off a 'true democracy' in IC Silvermoon.

I voted for a mixture of both. I feel a council made up of only Magisters, Farstriders and Blood Knights would be too class specific and those who play Priest, warrior or Death knight might feel left out or unsure of where they belong.

Limiting the council to a small number of seats might result in some guilds not having any members voted in, this lead to guilds not feeling represented and perhaps ignoring the council because of it. I think that if a council is made that every Blood elf guild in Silvermoon who wants to be part of the council should at least have one seat and that each guild should choose one person from their guild to represent them.

arulan wrote:
As for other position I'd kind of like the idea of calling them in some more original name which wold suit the current Blood elven society like instead of mminister of culter we could have the position of "High Censor" for example.

*grabs list of blood elf npc classes*
*sees Centurion and Legionnaire*
Possibilites: Consul, Praetor.
I'm not the one running around with such a title, but I think the second sounds more bad ass.

Atrís wrote:Limiting the council to a small number of seats might result in some guilds not having any members voted in, this lead to guilds not feeling represented and perhaps ignoring the council because of it. I think that if a council is made that every Blood elf guild in Silvermoon who wants to be part of the council should at least have one seat and that each guild should choose one person from their guild to represent them.

I see no reason for every guild having a seat. That exculdes people outside of guilds, or in mainly PvP or PvE guilds from having a seat. Know some very good roleplayers who play belves and are in guilds like that.
It could also bloat the concil so some members would just be there, talk and vote, but not be respnosible for anything. With the numbers we're talking at most there should be one chairman. Also making up rediculus positions to cover all people who are there only because of a guild sounds very bad to me.

But, every guild (aswell as every player of a blood elf!) should have a possibility to affect the countil. Both by speaking at meeting (by requesting leave for it formally before the meeting and waiting for his or her turn), and by being able to turn in motions for the council to discuss and support.
That might be all from minor laws to bigger events the player in question want official support for.
Thus, no one is fully excluded even if they don't have a chair.

I also think that most of the council meetings should be "open" but that some issues should be closed. For example any talk about more censur or war should be very much closed from the general populance. If war is the issue and might be close commanders of major regiments might be asked/allowed to listen and give their input.

Agreeing with Muzjhath's last post in every way. From my experiences with Stormwind (which I know is very different from Silvermoon - I'm more speaking from an organising POV than an IC one!), a streamlined council works better than one with lots of seats just so that lots of people can have a say.

There isn't enough emphasis, in my opinion, in any council that's ever been made in any city, on how to influence politics without having a seat. There is so much opportunity for political RP that is more than having a chair, and the more emphasis there is on having a place on a council rather than on making a difference to the political scene, the more clunky and inclined to falter the council will be.

I'll refrain from voting. I honestly hate RPing in SMC, on any of my characters, because of the sheer amount of stupidity going around.

I'll keep an eye on this though. Good luck! If all goes well, I may actually have FUN sneaking around on my pirate, keeping out of the public eye... Rather than being able to openly saunter around the place with no one making sure I'm behaving. Hell, half the people RP'ing BK's allow me to smuggle through the city. >.> A pretty face gets you anywhere in the current SMC.

Morinth wrote:I'll refrain from voting. I honestly hate RPing in SMC, on any of my characters, because of the sheer amount of stupidity going around.

I'll keep an eye on this though. Good luck! If all goes well, I may actually have FUN sneaking around on my pirate, keeping out of the public eye... Rather than being able to openly saunter around the place with no one making sure I'm behaving. Hell, half the people RP'ing BK's allow me to smuggle through the city. >.> A pretty face gets you anywhere in the current SMC.

It's actually the boobs doing the job, if you get my drift Also, giving up on something and then returning to enjoy it when/if it thrives is bad form and doesn't differ much from what people did with the last attempts to improve the RP in SMC.

Muzi has indeed the right idea with that post. There will be conflicts and they will occur both IC and OOC. Starting small and developing from there is always a good point to start from. Also, the meetings should be open to the public for the matters concerning the city and its population, but there should be private ones as well, for matters that concern the council itself and its members, much like the SW council has.

Lastly, it would be good to lay basic rules from the very beginning in order to avoid confusion later on. It's usually impossible to predict all possible situations requiring rules or laws, though it's easy enough to figure out the very basic ones. Things should begin rolling smoothly once that's done, provided that the people involved show the necessary motivation and dedication. Asking those who were part of the last attempt should also provide some additional help ^^

Mandui wrote:

Morinth wrote:I'll refrain from voting. I honestly hate RPing in SMC, on any of my characters, because of the sheer amount of stupidity going around.

I'll keep an eye on this though. Good luck! If all goes well, I may actually have FUN sneaking around on my pirate, keeping out of the public eye... Rather than being able to openly saunter around the place with no one making sure I'm behaving. Hell, half the people RP'ing BK's allow me to smuggle through the city. >.> A pretty face gets you anywhere in the current SMC.

It's actually the boobs doing the job, if you get my drift Also, giving up on something and then returning to enjoy it when/if it thrives is bad form and doesn't differ much from what people did with the last attempts to improve the RP in SMC.

As I wasn't at the discussion due to a guild event, I don't think I have any right in a say! XD But I'd be more than happy to give my opinions from a criminals view. \o Because the current 'guards' are a bit... Lacking. XD I want to walk into that city and be QUESTIONED goddammit!

Everything is so bloody scattered on these forums D:

Nonetheless, for those who can't find stuff around here:

LAWS OF SILVERMOON

SIN'DOREI GROUP FORUM (If you can't see this, you probably haven't subscribed to Horde usergroup)

I vote for Morinth To be the chair person of this council =D

Flumi wrote:I vote for Morinth To be the chair person of this council =D

*smacks* When frost mages ain't OP.

Wish I was at the meeting, but I have video of the opening words

But really it is nice to see silvermoon elves getting together to do this. As morinth said as pirates we need to be stopped when in the city doing bad things, would give a nice spice to things.

Flumi wrote:As morinth said as pirates we need to be stopped

Can a mod please stop the pirates? (from derailing)

From what I'm reading im seeing alot of talk revolving around conflict of power. This should not even be an issue given the reasoning behind the council. Those that play Sin'dorei and have been to Silvermoon can see why a council such as this would make for a good RP Hub within the playernamed "Sillymoon. Since I trailed completely off there (Thanks train of thoughts) I would like to say that the council is one body and one mind. There should be no comparison of power given that all members would serve a common goal. The Upkeep and Progression of Silvermoon. While I was unable to attend the meeting I was kept in the loop about the entire event and concluded with a poster waaaay above that Sin'dorei are bred to be self destructive in their mannerisms. Kael'thas and those that followed him being a prime example here. So there will always be someone wishing to gain more power and more authority within the council but in the long run there will always be those to counter that kind of lust by letting the person know that there is a grander scheme of things.

And on a note regarding Muzjhaths post I am inclined to agree with the guild based things. But for the main body of the council I would suggest the guilds that have the biggest presence on a consistant basis within Silvermoon while giving the Sin'dorei community as a whole a chance to feed their input. Even if you created some form of office where a plyer could drop in and give their two cents about what they would like to see within the city that way everyone gets a fair say. A council will no doubt be a complex and time consuming "project" but it will benefit a multitude of RPers as a whole... I'm looking at the thieves and criminals here! But I have ranted on for too long now. Good luck with the council and I look forward to being updated about its progression.

Althaeron wrote:I would like to say that the council is one body and one mind. There should be no comparison of power given that all members would serve a common goal. The Upkeep and Progression of Silvermoon. While I was unable to attend the meeting I was kept in the loop about the entire event and concluded with a poster waaaay above that Sin'dorei are bred to be self destructive in their mannerisms. Kael'thas and those that followed him being a prime example here. So there will always be someone wishing to gain more power and more authority within the council but in the long run there will always be those to counter that kind of lust by letting the person know that there is a grander scheme of things.

You are describing how things should be and we agree on all those points too : ) However, reality can be a little different than that, especially during the phase where the council is being formed. I would like to hope that this won't repeat itself, although that has been the case this far. If people are able to focus on their main goal, namely the creation of RP, such conflicts should be avoided, like I said in a previous post.

Also, leaders or representatives of major guilds should try to be present in the meetings in order to keep their guilds updated about any recent developments, even if they don't have an IC role that bears significance in regards to the council itself. That'd be a good way to keep people informed about the current RP.

Althaeron wrote:
But for the main body of the council I would suggest the guilds that have the biggest presence on a consistant basis within Silvermoon while giving the Sin'dorei community as a whole a chance to feed their input.

There haven't really been any guild that has had an actual consistant presence* in Silvermoon for a long time.
Apart from Sin Dorei Commision. But eh.

*as in doing more than sitting in one building and not interact with anyone else.