Current News - US forces kill Osama Bin Laden in Pakista

by **Kettin** Mon May 02, 2011 12:21 pm

For people that don't know http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-13256676 .

US forces kill Osama Bin Laden in Pakista

Was rather shocked since it just came out of the blue.

What are peoples thoughts on this.

by **Feydor** Mon May 02, 2011 12:30 pm

Interesting, but I think it is the biggest case of PICZ OR IT DIDN'T HAPPEN yet.
I am going to have to be looking at this for a few weeks, reading all the sources and analysing them, with as much of an unbiased view as possible before coming up with my own conclusions (not concrete and unchanging ones of course.)
But as of now, there are a few things I'd like answered. First is pictures and videos, to be assessed. Then DNA evidence, to be cross examined. It is all quite a bit suspicious, you don't take a man you've been hunting for ten years, kill him and throw him in the sea within a day. It's a nightmare to convict anyone without a body. Regardless, the upcoming days should be interesting, Obama's ratings shall rise. And I shall be looking forward to the Southpark episode about this.
Current News - US forces kill Osama Bin Laden in Pakista Tumblr_lkjsa0vvlq1qzu2tdo1_400

Current News - US forces kill Osama Bin Laden in Pakista Tumblr_lkjsa0vvlq1qzu2tdo1_400

by **Chase - Esou** Mon May 02, 2011 12:31 pm

Mixed feelings. I guess it feels good for the americans to wrap up what happened 10 years ago, but it also feels like the risk of a counter attack is higher now. I doubt al-Qaeda is weakened by the death of bin Laden, the north African al-Qaeda boys are much more active now anyway iirc.

by **Feydor** Mon May 02, 2011 12:33 pm

Indeed, if that article is correct, and Osama has been alive the whole time up to now (despite numerous other reports of his death),chilling in a mansion for a while with no telephone or internet, then how has he been a real part of the Al-Qaeda movement. This will do funk all, except strengthen it, and our freedoms will probably be further limited.

by **Feydor** Mon May 02, 2011 12:45 pm

Interesting. http://twitter.com/#!/ReallyVirtual
This guy live tweeted unknowingly as the shit went down. Will be interesting to compare his timeline to the official story.

by **Geldar** Mon May 02, 2011 1:17 pm

Thoughts? Most expensive game of hide & seeks in the history of man has ended. And I'll be staying away from airports and the subway for the next few months.

by **Ehrfürchtige Bennedict** Mon May 02, 2011 1:20 pm

Feydor/Dostoyev wrote:Interesting. http://twitter.com/#!/ReallyVirtual
This guy live tweeted unknowingly as the shit went down. Will be interesting to compare his timeline to the official story.

Care to explain to someone who hasn't been following the story, how ReallyVirtual is attached to the Osama assassination?

by **Drustai** Mon May 02, 2011 1:31 pm

About time.

by Guest Mon May 02, 2011 1:32 pm

Le gasp.

by Guest Mon May 02, 2011 1:32 pm

Bennedict wrote:
Feydor/Dostoyev wrote:Interesting. http://twitter.com/#!/ReallyVirtual
This guy live tweeted unknowingly as the shit went down. Will be interesting to compare his timeline to the official story.

Care to explain to someone who hasn't been following the story, how ReallyVirtual is attached to the Osama assassination?

He lives near the villa where Osama hid and tweeted about the attack.

by **Gahalla** Mon May 02, 2011 1:48 pm

I'm inclined to agree with Feydor here. I'm not really sure I believe it. There's been speculation he's been dead before. And unless some sort of proof is presented and/or Al Qaeda proclaims him a martyr I'll just remain sceptic.

by **Lexgrad** Mon May 02, 2011 1:58 pm

I think the real question rather than if he is really dead is the political question that he was being hidden in Pakistan, the americans entered Pakistan to do kill him and also how much the goverment of Pakistan knew about this.

Also what effect this could have on the arab uprisings, most likely little but we dont know how much of the uprising is Al qaeda.

by **Lini** Mon May 02, 2011 2:07 pm

Talebans have already threatened with new strikes.
As for DNA tests, the results will be available in a few days.

As entertaining as conspiracy theories are, I'd say he's dead. Dead, as in, shot in the head and thrown in the sea dead.

by **Mervyn** Mon May 02, 2011 2:17 pm

The biggest thing i'm getting from this is it's nice to see some pro-american news going on, sorry i'm as anti-America as the rest of them but with all the rise of china thing going on to see the Americans kicking ass is rather relieving! Very Happy

But as for if he's dead...Pictures would be nice, but if it's being reported by the BBC as fact then as far as i'm concerned theres some truth to it, and for the US president to come out and say it is rather large i recon! Very Happy

But another point is how long they waited until they moved in on him, and not to mention that this might secure Obama 4 more years in power!

But then again, isn't it amazing how much the Americans get done when the playstation networks down!

by **Antistia** Mon May 02, 2011 2:20 pm

But as of now, there are a few things I'd like answered. First is pictures and videos, to be assessed. Then DNA evidence, to be cross examined.

There's a photo of a supposedly dead Osama floating around the web, I can't verify it's authenticity and ought to say that it's a bit graphic:

Spoiler:

Furthermore:

(Reuters) - The United States is conducting DNA testing on slain al Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden and used facial recognition techniques to help identify him, a U.S. official said on Monday.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/05/02/us-binladen-dna-idUSTRE7411HJ20110502

The DNA test is coming it seems, I'm personally convinced that it'll determine that it is indeed Osama bin Laden who was killed by US navy SEALs.

It is all quite a bit suspicious, you don't take a man you've been hunting for ten years, kill him and throw him in the sea within a day.

I believe it is Islamic custom to bury a corpse within 24 hours of that person's death. I might be wrong but there's surely a muslim or someone who knows Islamic customs who can prove me wrong or prove me right. What they were doing was ensuring they wouldn't inflame muslim sensitivities.

It's a nightmare to convict anyone without a body.

A Dutch news site is reporting that the US intended to kill him right then and there. If that's true then they never had the intention of convicting him.

then how has he been a real part of the Al-Qaeda movement.

Allegedly Osama used couriers.

This will do funk all, except strengthen it, and our freedoms will probably be further limited

I doubt it, really. It's most likely not a blow that will decapitate Al Qaeda's ability to engage in campaigns of terrorism. It is however a moral blow (and moral victory to the US) to Al Qaeda as their rallying figure is dead. Not to mention it sends the message that the US can find you anywhere and can kill you anywhere, no matter how well hidden you are. As for our freedoms, we shall see.

What I personally want to know is how much the ISI knew and the Pakistani military. Abbottabad has a prestigious military school, is very close to Islamabad and there were a lot of ex-military officers living close to the complex. Also, his son died in the attack, good riddance.

by **Feydor** Mon May 02, 2011 2:25 pm

Lini wrote:Talebans have already threatened with new strikes.
As for DNA tests, the results will be available in a few days.

As entertaining as conspiracy theories are, I'd say he's dead. Dead, as in, shot in the head and thrown in the sea dead.

Oh shit, you just brought out the C word. I'm going to let Noam Chomsky say what I have in mind, as he puts it best.

Noam Chomsky wrote:
There's nothing more remote from what we have been discussing than a conspiracy theory. If I give an analysis of, say the economic system, and I point out that GM tries to maximize profit and market share - that's not a conspiracy theory; that's an institutional analysis. It has nothing to do with conspiracies. That's precisely the sense in which we've been talking about the media. The phrase "conspiracy theory" is one of those that's constantly brought up, and I think it's effect simply is to discourage institutional analysis.

We are simply analysing the situation with the sources at hand.

Edit: As to that photo, if anyone believes that then they need to get off the internet, pronto.
Here is the evidence Wink

Warning for those who are offended by pictures of the dead.

Spoiler:

And sure, it is Islamic custom, but it is much preferred to bury on land, water is a last resort. And since when did the US army care about islamic customs? If they are burying at him sea not to inflare muslim sensitivities, then that is NOTHING compared to the revolt and anger that will be spurred by Osama's killing. It is almost trivial in comparison. It is interesting how they claim they intended to kill bin laden, but had no issue of handing Saddam over for trial.
And indeed, I agree with you about how close they were to a pakistani military base, it's not exactly as if the mansion was hidden either.

by **Kozgugore Feraleye** Mon May 02, 2011 2:29 pm

Easy to claim he's actually dead. Would have been better if they would have had living proof. Still, I'd be inclined to believe it, but I don't really care a lot anyway. Those extremist monkeys will keep going at it anyway.

by **Antistia** Mon May 02, 2011 2:39 pm

And sure, it is Islamic custom, but it is much preferred to bury on land, water is a last resort. And since when did the US army care about islamic customs? If they are burying at him sea not to inflare muslim sensitivities, then that is NOTHING compared to the revolt and anger that will be spurred by Osama's killing. It is almost trivial in comparison. It is interesting how they claim they intended to kill bin laden, but had no issue of handing Saddam over for trial.
And indeed, I agree with you about how close they were to a pakistani military base, it's not exactly as if the mansion was hidden either.

It was at sea because that way it does not become a holy site for extremists (kind of like what the Soviets did to Hitler in the end). It's also important to remember that the US seeks to ensure that it is not seen to be at war with Islam. Respecting Islamic customs is one way to make sure this happens, even when you're dealing with bin Laden. One could also argue that muslims who normally would not sympathize with bin Laden could be angered because of the lack of respect given to Islamic custom, I don't think those people would be angered by bin Laden's death.

It is interesting how they claim they intended to kill bin laden, but had no issue of handing Saddam over for trial.

Not really interesting if you ask me. The difficulty to hold a trial for terrorists in the US is simply absurd. They'd never be able to agree on a location or provide enough security to ensure nothing goes wrong. Saddam on the other hand was handed over to an Iraqi court. My point is: Putting Osama on trial would have been quite a tedious journey, to say the least.

by **Feydor** Mon May 02, 2011 3:03 pm

1. Bury Osama on soil.
2. Monitor whoever visits there and acts like its a shrine.
3. Theres ya extremists.

A trial could easily be held in a third country, as the leader of the Taliban offered 10 years ago. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
If the leader of the Taliban was okay with this, why would it have been a problem to do that now?

I think really respecting Islamic burial customs now is like trying to patch a wound with a scrap of paper, it just won't work. After the killing of millions, aggressive foreign policy, invasion, murder, I think that these would anger muslims more than making sure his body is buried within 24 hours.

It's a shame the world is left in the dark at the moment, regarding any proof of murder.

by **Lini** Mon May 02, 2011 3:04 pm

#
1556: The Obama officials, who have not been named, add that "DNA evidence has proven that Bin Laden is dead, with 99.9% confidence", according to AP. The officials did not immediately say where or how the testing was done.

1550: Steve Everitt in Tokyo, writes: "This is a TERRIBLE MOMENT for the world... not a great victory. This so-called 'burial at sea' will not bring closure to any of the families of his victims. They will now be haunted for the rest of their lives by doubts caused by the various conspiracy and cover up theories that are now sure to surface as per 9/11.My initial euphoria has now given way to anger and disgust... and this is from a staunch fan of President Obama. We all deserved much much better."

by **Feydor** Mon May 02, 2011 3:11 pm

You've just posted claims, Lini. As of yet there has been no proof released. And please, do not appeal to the sob story, as you have done in your second post. We are merely wishing to attain the complete facts. If people concretely think that Osama is the sole one responsible for all the deaths in 9/11, then I do not know how to console them. As far as I see it, the murder of Bin Laden only adds fuel to the fire, and assures further conflict.

And for all those speaking of how they buried him within 24 hours, in order to keep up with Islamic traditions, I ask you, how long did they keep the bodies of Qusay and Uday Hussein (Saddams sons). The answer is 11 days. I could point to countless other cases of high stature Muslim's murders, and the fact their bodies being kept way more than 1 day. Do you really think that there would be an uproar if the body was kept for examination and such, longer than a day?

by **Antistia** Mon May 02, 2011 3:41 pm

A trial could easily be held in a third country, as the leader of the Taliban offered 10 years ago. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2001/oct/14/afghanistan.terrorism5
If the leader of the Taliban was okay with this, why would it have been a problem to do that now?

It's quite simple, having a third country put him on trial wasn't acceptable to the Americans then and now. I do not blame them for that. Plus how many countries would take Osama in? Few, if any. They also thought no country would take in his corpse.

I think really respecting Islamic burial customs now is like trying to patch a wound with a scrap of paper, it just won't work. After the killing of millions, aggressive foreign policy, invasion, murder, I think that these would anger muslims more than making sure his body is buried within 24 hours.

True, but is the alternative (not respecting Islamic customs) any better? I'd argue that it is not. These are baby steps to repair America's image in the Islamic world, but they are steps nonetheless. I'll take these small improvements over none at all.

As far as I see it, the murder of Bin Laden only adds fuel to the fire, and assures further conflict.

And his continued survival wouldn't have? I believe it's better to bring the fight to them than hope they do not bring the fight to us if we leave them alone. Sure, they'll try to retaliate, it's not like they wouldn't have attacked if Bin Laden was still alive.

by **Feydor** Mon May 02, 2011 3:48 pm

I am sure that there would have been countries to take him in for trial, or an international trial. And countries that would have had the corpse. Perhaps you do not realise, but they have not been respecting Islamic customs in the past, they've been practically shitting on them. I think that if Bin Laden had continued to survive (taking into consideration numerous past reports of his death, and for now, not being convinced he is dead. I call them like I see them, I'll be satisfied with proof), the level of fervour from extremists would be nothing compared to him being made a martyr. It's the worst thing to do. Just further antagonism, to add to it.

Do you not think that with TEN years of planning time, as to what would happen if he was captured dead/alive, they could have done something better than shooting him, and throwing him in the sea a few hours later?

by **Amaryl** Mon May 02, 2011 3:50 pm

Feydor/Dostoyev wrote:
And for all those speaking of how they buried him within 24 hours, in order to keep up with Islamic traditions, I ask you, how long did they keep the bodies of Qusay and Uday Hussein (Saddams sons). The answer is 11 days. I could point to countless other cases of high stature Muslim's murders, and the fact their bodies being kept way more than 1 day. Do you really think that there would be an uproar if the body was kept for examination and such, longer than a day?

stop posting claims and assumptions and keep to the facts as you yourself are advocating? seriously asking a quasi rhetorical question, based on no facts, and solely on "perception and opinion, isn't

Feydor/Dostoyev wrote:merely wishing to attain the complete facts.

stop using strawmen arguments. and keep to the facts yourself, if you really want to.

the only actual question you can, and admittedly you should pose is this: how was the dna testing conducted, and where was the prior osama dna collected.

to which you don't have an answer yet, so stop countering speculations with speculations based on assumptions based on shit you read.

by **Lini** Mon May 02, 2011 3:55 pm

Feydor/Dostoyev wrote:You've just posted claims, Lini. As of yet there has been no proof released. And please, do not appeal to the sob story, as you have done in your second post. We are merely wishing to attain the complete facts. If people concretely think that Osama is the sole one responsible for all the deaths in 9/11, then I do not know how to console them. As far as I see it, the murder of Bin Laden only adds fuel to the fire, and assures further conflict.

The only reason I posted the sob story is because of the bolded part. People will demand proof and no matter what proof will be presented to them they will deny it, claiming it to be fake and rather cling to their own version of the truth that is a lot more "exciting" than the cold boring truth that Osama was killed in a rather unceremonious gunfight without any kind of public spectacle involved.
The results of the DNA test will be refuted. Since there is no body left, Osama might as well be alive to the doubters.
Seriously, what source would be reliable enough for the doubters to start believing? Anything from the US gov will be forged and an attempt to affect the approval rates of Obama. And yet they're the only ones who can provide us with solid proof.

Pictures? At best we'll be getting horribad quality mobile phone pics that might as well be photoshopped (as pointed out earlier in the thread) that were leaked by the soldiers present. Then again, they claim they don't know who shot the killing bullet which to me sounds like they're protecting the soldier who did it.

Bin Laden wasn't sole person responsible for 9/11, nor was his assassination about justice. That message has been sent with the numerous arrests and trials of other Al-Qaeda members involved in 9/11. Same goes for the trial of Saddam. He was given to the Iraqi people to judge for a reason. This operation sent another kind of message. It's useless to hide, no matter what you try.

Will this add more fuel to the fire and invoke plenty of terrorism? Yes. Would it have been avoidable? No. Burying Bin Laden on soil would've caused the place to become either a holy site for the extremists and/or a site of great insult. Sure, in the modern Internet era of "pics or it didn't happen" mentality it would've provided a more concrete "evidence" of his death but the donwsides would've been more substantial no matter how it would've happened.

And for all those speaking of how they buried him within 24 hours, in order to keep up with Islamic traditions, I ask you, how long did they keep the bodies of Qusay and Uday Hussein (Saddams sons). The answer is 11 days. I could point to countless other cases of high stature Muslim's murders, and the fact their bodies being kept way more than 1 day. Do you really think that there would be an uproar if the body was kept for examination and such, longer than a day?

DNA samples can be taken in a matter of seconds. Facial data can be compared from photographs. That's all you need to confirm someone's identity. There really was no reason to keep his body for examination for any longer than it was kept.

For all the people demanding solid evidence of Bin Laden's death, I'm going to offer an alternative. Wait for evidence of him being alive. Bin Laden has a history of making video appearances claiming he's still alive and I'm sure after news like this he would happily claim otherwise at the first possible moment.

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