Collective responsibility, an analysis regarding attitudes and roleplaying

Disclaimer 1: This will be a very long post and will deal with a serious issue, I suggest that you make sure you have time before you try to read it

Disclaimer 2: Some of you will inevitably feel like I am targetting you here. Please do not think that, I mean to discuss attitudes here and not people. If you feel offended by anything in here, I'm sorry, it's not my intent.

Disclaimer 3: I think all of you are great people and that it's thanks to you all that this server is awesome. Thank you!

Important note in the bottom, make sure you don't miss it.

Hello

I'm Gahalla, Vopyna and Jayanti. I've been around on this server from the start and have had a great time playing on it. I joined The shining strand on day one. I play a doctor that have treated many characters. I was Tiberio's right hand in the initial plots against the Dark sphere (culminating during the servers first winter), recieving my fair share of threats, manipulation and torture. I've been a member of the Stormwind council, the Ironforge senate and now guard (and chip in to) the Tinker's court. I've been kidnapped many times, kidnapped, imprisoned once (by the Dark sphere) and been in exile (granted, mostly self-imposed ones).

Some of you know that I often try to mediate between people and stop drama, for better or for worse (I'm sure some of you feel that I can sometimes be a bit too much in this regard).

I try to keep my ear to the ground and listen, as well as a open mind about most things. I don't think I'm always good at this, but I try to.

Now, to the task at hand:

We all play this game to have fun, no questions about it. We log in and join the communities to find others to roleplay with, because roleplaying is at it's heart a very social endeavour. It works on the simple premise of "I provide you with fun and you provide me with fun". We try to act and think like our characters would in Azeroth, trying to put ourselves in their positions and act out that we're heroes, villains, barkeeps, leaders of nations, guards, doctors and whatnot. In order to do this we need someone that can react to what we do and allow us to react to what they do. Then it all becomes muddled by preferences, human emotion, unwritten rules that complicate it all but makes most of us enjoy it all the more.

In a way, "simple but complicated" is probably an apt way of describing it.

We all know this. We also know that it isn't something that just happens by itself, but that we need to put down effort to make it happen (sometimes more, sometimes less).

And the golden rule: "Don't mix IC with OOC".

Yes, I know you all know this. But bear with me.

The issue I want to discuss is something I've seen in alliance roleplaying, specifically eastern kingdoms roleplaying. It might be in the horde and in Kalimdor as well. But I can't determine that seeing that I don't participate in those communities (sadly).

It's something I think all of us are guilty of to varying degrees. Myself included yes, I have no illusions there.

Divisions and roles
We create divisions in our factions. Groups with diffferent goals and a degree of animosity to one another. On onse side we have the military guilds, the guards, the businessmen and the councils. Let's for the sake of the arguments call this group lighties.
On the other hand we got the cultists, the criminals and the fanatics (and to a certain extent, the other faction). Let's call this group the villains.

I get the impression we all agree that we want this. There's noone that really wants the villains (nor the lighties) to go away. Many of us have, for the most part, have good and enjoyable roleplaying with that other side. I'm sure most of us would agree that there is the odd rotten apple that we don't enjoy roleplaying with just as much but overall roleplaying on this server would lose a lot by losing either the villains or the lighties.

Within this groups there are divisions as well and it is here we find the guilds and the organisations. Most fill a certain niche of sorts in the roleplay community. We have the Disciples of Light, the model of a semi-military semi-religious guild. If someone asks you about guilds associated with the church, I'm sure DoL will be one of the first ones you mention.
We have Bloodwind, which fill the niche of shock troops, veteran soldiers and officers. We don't have knights, we have Bloodwind. Dwarven Rifle Squad, the very definition of the dwarven army. Whenever you want proud warriors or jolly drunk comedic relief, these guys always deliver. Old Town Syndicate (yes I know you're technically criminals) that run the smoking blade, one of the most popular (if not the most popular) water holes on the server. The Blazing shields, who'se name is intimately connected to law enforcement. The Stormwind Council and The Senate, which rules one domain each.

I think you get the picture.

All have a niche, a role they fill and people associate them with.

So too do the villains of course. We have the Dark sphere and the Hand of Nightmares. The wicked and evil cultists that seek to spread terror and exert their tyrranous domination over us. The various fanatic scarlet crusaders, that violently try to enforce their view of purity on us. The Chapter of Holy Anethion, the dogmatic and zealous light fanatics that fight real or imagined wickedness wherever they find it. The Forlorn cartel (and the Old Town Syndicate?) that try to rob us of our hard earned money.

There's many many more on both sides.

Each of these guilds have something they revolve around, a set of core themes that give them this niche. Defining what they do in the community and what they do around others.

Interaction and consequences

Now, all these guilds intermingle and react with each others. The villains do something villainous and the guards try to stop them. Sometimes the issue rises to see light in the council meetings, sometimes they do not. Sometimes the guards catch or stop the villains, sometimes the villains escape. Sometimes we get great plots that many love, sometimes we are left with a bitter taste in the mouth. As much as we try, it's not always easy to please everyone sadly. Sometimes it simply just doesn't work. I think it's fair to say that we have all experienced it and all caused it (we might be unaware of this). I know for a fact that I have.

One thing many of us want to see is consequences. We want to see the villain face the consequences of their wicked ways. To pay the price of their erronous choices. To see them punished. It's important to us lighties, mostly because of the suspension of belief. To allow the illusion that it is a working society. Nothing is more jarring than a criminal merrily wander about as if the crime had never happened. We know that we technically cannot do anything, that we cannot enforce anything. Which is why we need, and ask, the villain to get caught and face judgement. As long as they do that and recieve a suitable punishment, we can, in theory, go on and have a good time.

The broken toy
In theory... unfortunantely, in praxis, that doesn't happen too often.

The more I think about it, the more I see this cycle repeated time and time again:

* A new villain guild emerge. Everyone think they're awesome and cheer them on. Fresh blood and fresh ideas for everyone. Plenty of interaction.

* We get used to having this guild around, everyone wnats to interact with them and their numbers swell. Some have less than pleasant encounters but overall it's good.

* People feel rather satiated with that particular roleplay, try to step back and leave it alone. The guild continues make themselves known and involve themselves, some people get very fed up. Drama starts emerging.

* The Lighties (not necessarily collectively) get fed up and tries to settle the issue with a big event (a trial, a mahor decision in a council, a big final event) and the guilds gets shoved aside like a broken toy. Lots of drama and everyone feels generally annoyed and fed up with another.

* The new guild either dies or makes their way back after a while, once more welcome but not like they used to. In rare cases they force their way back, which is generally very impopular.

I see this cycle in the Dark sphere (who have gone through it many times), Hand of Nightmares, the various scarlet fanatics (most notably the crimson flame), Utal (who is a individual and not a guild), the dwarf community (twice), the Kingdom of Arathor, The entire Kingdom of Alterac mess (in which it seemed both sides tried to shove aside the other, with predictable results) and now the Chapter.

As you can see, it's not necessarily limited to villains.

I don't mean to say that the big bad community hurts the poor innocent guilds. I think it's more of an annoyed "Enough!", frustrations finally spilling over. Most guilds do their fair share of contributing to ending up in this situation in the first place, like maintaining a omni-presence. Seemingly overstepping what is acceptable and simply becoming to present. Everything eventually seem to boil down to them in one way or another.

One of the primary reasons it boils over to this is that in the most cases, the lighties feel that the others don't face the consequences (or too light consequences) for what they have done. Starting to disturb that thin suspension of belief regarding the working society.

Exile and various prohibitions are popular suggestions for punishments. Something that severly limits their ability to maintain a presence.

The issue with prison, exile and prohibition
This is where the guilds generally balk and cry foul. Saying that those punishments are too severe. To which the lighties respond: nonsense. But let's examine the punishments shall we?

Imprisonment.
We know by know that it's dreadfully dull to sit in prison. It's a incredible limitation that the character you want to rp with is forced to sit and spend his day counting bricks. We try to solve it by giving short jailtime and providing them with company all the time. Making sure that they do in fact have something to do in there. It's awesome and great that the guards try to do this nowadays. Well done guys! (I'm sincere, yes.)

Exile.
Ah exile, the perfect punishment. We send the problem somewhere else, for a time of course. Permanetaly would not be fair. Once they've settled down and learned to behave they're free to come back.

There is only a small problem... where will the exiles go? Wherever they wish of course! Just not here. The problem is, "here" (most likely the kingdom of Stormwind, Khaz'Modan or both) happens to be the primary rp hubs of the eastern kingdoms alliance. To the point of exclusion. There is nowhere else to go.

The biggest victim of the centralized roleplaying is that when we force people away they will be cut off from the entire community. Not only will they not be able to rp with anyone in it, they will have great difficulty keeping up with what happens (not to mention miss potential events they want to attend).

It's just as limiting as imprisonment when it comes to roleplaying (speaking from experience from my self-imposed exiles here, and those were my own choice! Imagine if someone else forces you out) In theory they'll keep themselves company, but I'll discuss the problems with this in praxis soon.

Prohibition
Is another alternative when there seem to be a certain root cause behind it. Simply forbid it and the problem goes away. But, often this root cause is that particular problems central theme. So in order to continue roleplaying, they have to go underground and break it. Back to square one.

Killing of guilds
Yes, the argument the to-be-punished guild raises against these chosen punishments. The rest of us become annoyed with this. That's not what we're saying at all. We simply want you to face the consequences of what you did. Horrific things were commited and proven. There is a price to pay. They argue and the drama begins.

What is not realised is that while they're probably overdramatic... they're not wrong either. Many of the villain guilds depend on being able to interact with the community. It's what their roleplay is all about.

Let's take the chapter as an example. They have gone to great lengths to create an awesome alternative, if very intolerant and fanatical, version of the light. We all respect them for this and think they'd do fine keeping to themselves.
But the very premise of the chapter is to spread that version and hunt down wickedness (wether it exists or not is irrelevant). The guild needs an audience!

If we send them to... say hillsbrad. What are they going to do? Accuse the stable master of heresy? Stare accusingly at the fishertrainer? Harass the odd passerby?

And what if we prohibit their faith instead then? It has the same problem, they have to keep it hidden and locked away. Only having hidden ceremonies and not harassing anyone. Again, the central theme of the guild is at risk. They fade into the background and becomes "just another DoL". This is not meant as a insult to the disciples, seriously. You guys are the best. It's just that... light fanatics not allowed to express their fanatiscism becomes just one more of the Holy light guilds and you hold that niche. Anyone else more or less fades into the background... becoming irrelevant. There's simply no competing with you guys.

If it has ever happened? Yes, plenty of times. I honestly believe this is the fate tss (the shining strand/vengence) have suffered. It's not anyone's fault. We simply could stand out at all between DoL, the scarlet crusade and some others. So we imploded... vanished. Only for of us staying behind for old times sake.

It can be avoided yes. But that requires some serious unity and leadership. I don't blame guilds for fearing the mere possibility.

So it all ends up in a ooc fight between those who want a harsh punishment for realism and those fighting for their imagined survival as a guild. There's no winning there... Often ending in being blamed on the council (regardless of it's involvement) and/or the guild.

The alternative is of course that the guild is punished that way and just ignores it. Noone feels happy about that at all.

Collective responsibilty
I've discussed what I see and how I interpret it. Now what I propose we do about it.

I propose a collective responsibility of a give and recieve mentality. That means that if you want something from someone such as that they play a victim, an audience, some peace and quiet or that they face consequences. Then you give them something in return.

So if a criminal is trialed, he has some people that stands by willing to roleplay with him while he serves his sentance. So he isn't left alone, abandoned and bored.

If a group is exiled, then they recieve company so they may roleplay with someone during their exile.

If you commit a crime in Stormwind, you stand ready to be trialed for it.

A collective responsibility to make sure that everyone of us can have fun roleplaying. I improve your roleplay and you improve mine.. I give you rp opportunities and you give me rp opportunities. Give and recieve. Perhaps ask a friend to do it for you and give your friend something in return?

Let's take the recent chapter mess as an example. If you want them to adhere to that verdict and act as if they were severly punished. Then some effort needs to be put in by both sides. The ones that wanted a punishment ought to give the chapter a motivation to rp their struggle under the restrictions. Visit them during their allotted preaching time, come to critisize or as an alt to listen to them. The guards could question them about carried weapons, ask which guard issued it, when and why. Occasionally allow them to drag an alt into an alley to beat you up convince you of the merits of Anethionism.

Don't expect or force them to follow them. Help them follow them. Help them have fun!

In return of course, the chapter ought to try to keep trouble of the streets (from their own members that is), try to live accordingly to them and work hard to give this punishment a sense of authority and validity. Help the rest of us feel it was justice! Help us have fun!

Help us help you!

Use what you get (but don't hesitate to ask what you get if it's unclear).

Breaks and OOC communication
I realise that this is quite the mouthful, and sometimes you are just so fed up on some rp that you want to stay as far away from it as possible. It's to be expected and completely natural. Sometimes it happens. Ultimately we do this for our own fun.

If so. Take a break.

No, not from the game. From that particular roleplaying. Simply find an officer or organiser or anyone of them and toss them a whisper saying: "Guys, it's getting a bit too much for me and I need a little break for this." Tell them when you start to feel fed up or annoyed. Tell them that you feel it's going a bit too far. If you hear that others feel like you do, tell them that you're a few that feel that way. Don't order them to stop, but simply inform them that you don't enjoy it as much as you could or would like to. Allow them a chance to stop on their own.

Naturally, these requests are to be respected as much as it possibly can be done. If it's the SW council expressing it, then maybe it's time to go on a little field trip somewhere. Hold an event or series of events outside of Stormwind for a while. Vice versa, if a group that recieves a lot of negative spotlight form the council asks for this, then that's a sign to try to lay off pressure for a little while.

If you think that it will be difficult to give them a break, for Ic reasons or that you're in the middle of a plot or whatnot. Then tell them that and say you'll try to give them the break, but that it might not be easy or possible. So they know that you're trying but that it might be out of your hands.

Another type of break could be to host a w-pvp event together. Ask the horde (or alliance, if this is applicable) to fight you somewhere and then fight side by side as temporary allies of necessity. The enemy or my enemy is my friend. Probably a nice way to vent some frustration too.

Communication is key. Let us know if things don't seem as fun anymore. Preferably if you can pinpoint exactly what is the problem in this case so we can work something out (even if that is something as simply as: okay, we'll stay away from each others for a while).

Communicate, communicate, communicate.

Even if you hold the golden rule as law, if you're not ahving fun that's going to show itself in the roleplaying eventually. Most likely due to a lost temper.

Always remember: If people feel offended, they always go defensive. Always. If that happens you're never going to make them hear your point.

It's very difficult to read people over internet due to that text show so little emotion. That's why it is so important to make people know how you feel and how much you enjoy what you do. Let them know. Let us know. Help us make sure you have fun.

Thank you for having the patience to read this. I think you're all great! For the most part you're the reason I play wow at all. Once more, apologies if you feel offended or targeted.

I'd like to ask you who want to respond to this to take a few moments before you do so. To all posts in this thread in fact. There is no right and wrong here. Just perspectives. Also... if anything is clear, point it out and I'll do my best to clarify

inb4 "tl;dr" and possibly a lot of hate too...

I read all of it and I find myself agreeing with everything written for the most part. Granted, I haven't been playing for a while so I wouldn't know what events on a grander scale have happened, but the general feel of this post matches my own opinion of it all when I've been RPing Chase and Zabatou in WotLK.

I'd personally say a lot of frustration bottles from the fact that a lot of people RPing criminals don't realise that the "an eye for an eye" relationship between "lighties" and "villains" needs to exist, purely for the OOC enjoyment of the lighties, if not even other villains as well.

I'm frankly prone to believe this issue wouldn't exist if the villains stepped their game down a little. Stealing and robbing people's houses could become the norm instead of beating people up, torture or even attempts at characters' lives. When criminals run around trying to kill people, and even if failing, it's going to upset people when the criminals don't get punished in an equal, or even a lesser manner.

That's my somewhat outdated view covering some part of this issue. OP was a very good read, and I love the admitted uncertainty about wtf the OTS actually does. Means those dudes must be doing awesome, still <3

I don't have anything to add to this since most of what is stated above here seems to be true.
Yet, I would just like to point out that not all OOC-annoyances come only from miss communication. Some simply come from lame behavior of the opposite faction in the form of meta-gaming, Or other lame and disrespectful behavior regarding the others RP.

Okay, I'll just point out the few things I personally see important here.

Starting with KoA. When I first started KoA it was much disliked by a lot of people, the Stormwind Council included. And there was a few plots about disowning us, and with that we stood offensive, trying to protect our hard work in a quite aggressive way. Then all that changed, and we started to tone down, compromise a bit for the sake of the community. And I personally think that is the best thing we've done. Okey, we are not a massive guild anymore (but anyhow, quality>quantity), but we're being taken seriously. Our roles, our importance, our beliefs and opinions. And we still keep our niche, but we merely compromise a little, and thus get the same respect in return. I think this is important for some guilds, and I do not for once second believe that a little compromising will ruin a whole guild. It might ruin some egos, but that's about it.

As for the killing of guilds..

First thing, if you are an evil guild, and if you do not act subtle. Then to some degree I think it is kinda your own fault if your guild dies. Cause in the end, you get trialed, you don't get a fair trial, go out and do your thing again.. People get annoyed and in the end starts to ignore you. Not our of evil, but because people do not want to deal with that. They log onto WoW to have fun. Not deal with a bunch of bullshit drama. And when people get FORCED to deal with the drama, a lot of arguments occur, because they do not want to deal with that stuff at all. Thus getting seriously angry. So yeah, in some cases.. It's kinda the guilds own fault if that happens. I think it is because they do not take the TIME to actually plan the guild properly. If you are an evil guild, you got to let every single new member know that they can not go around on the open street murder, assault, harass, preach. It's just stupid. Sneakyness goes a long way. Look at the Old Town Syndicate for example. I personally know no one (I think) that know they are "evil", or "criminals".

And the second point - Punishment. I can't remember who said it, I think it might of been Andrek. When RPing evil guilds you'll never win. You roleplay it to create some fun for the Lighties (and yourself of course), but at the end of the day the Lighties are always going to win. That is how it is really, at least on the Alliance-Eastern Kingdoms side. And when you look at it.. I think the majority of people cutting some slack is always the good guys. They are the ones getting kidnapped, tortured, harassed, killed. There are not as many things like that on the good side. Except your occasional prisoner, that most of the time escape anyway. Which I think is one of the biggest mistakes one can do. Escapes occasionally sure.. But seriously, escapes are near impossible as far as I'm concerned. I think that the evil side got to pitch in a bit, cut the good guys some slack. Be imprisoned (even if its boring. Cause if we look at it that way.. Its not really fun to constantly chase evil guys either), get punishments, lashes, pay fines, get executed (you can always make alts for this. An occasional alt execution now and then I think would really make the good guys happy and more willing to work with the evil guys). Just a few thoughts of mine on that thing.


As for the helping the, during exile and such.. Well, there was a discussion about exiling the Chapter to Duskwood. Then they'd have a perfect opportunity to do what their guild is supposedly about - hunt evil. And in turn it would give the cultists some RP for a while, during the exile. Regardless, I do believe this would be whined over as well, should it of been the case. Overall in the matter, I don't really think people need to go with them and hold hands during exiles. There are other RP communities, such as Duskwood, and even Kalimdor. Go strike some fear in the elves for once, create some roleplay there! And also, when people do move, others do tend to follow anyway. It's not like they are kicked out to a desert all alone. There are plenty of opportunities. Just gotta open your eyes.

Lastly, for the communication part and letting someone know you've had enough. That was done in the Chapter thread. People weren't aggressive at first (except me I think), but discussed it in a neutral tone, trying to explain that they did not think this was right. Yet they got shit thrown back at them like "Metagaming", and "ruining guilds" and "you never create RP anyway!". Those things just spur it all up all the more, and in the end there's a huge discussion. Whether it was on the forum or in whispers, it's always the same. People do not want to hear that they are not liked. They get defensive right away, and do not take the time to consider it. And I say that from my own experience with it, in KoA. It took quite a while before we started to think "hey.. Maybe there is a point in what they are saying.. Maybe we should start compromising a little".


Anyway, there's few of my ideas, thoughts and suggestions.

I would imagine the venting wpvp would be best done in an area where none of the two sides have an interest. So you can either take it as a grand victory for the alliance or a minor skirmish for the lulz on the horde side.

It is a great point and I agree to it; however I would like to bring something to light. Considering I had the 'priveledge' of seeing the Chapter's guild chat and all the drama slowly unfold over the months, I would like to say what makes 'villains' especially bitter OOCly.

First of all its the attitude of some of the enforcers of the Good Side. I will elaborate. Agent Of the Council #1 came into the cathedral while the chapter was holding a mass; he insulted us and out teachings, and we (surprise!) remained very calm and respectful. He followed us into library, talking without any respect, making demands, calling the High Inquisitor "kid" and so on. We asked ICly how that behaviour can be combined with the virtue of Respect considering he is a paladin. He raged at us ICly. told that "Respect is earned, not given!". When we pointed that out to his superios, they just shrugged shoulders and said "sorry, he has the freedom of speech".

Agent of the Council #2 came to Darkshire when Chapter controlled it, started giving orders, disregarding anything we are saying and basically ignoring ICly our presence and refusing to co-ordinate. So, they came in, caused a mess, refused to work together, insulted us and left. When we complained to the Council, they too said that "they have the freedom of speech" etc, and its their right to refuse to co-ordinate.

When the Chapter raged at anybody ICly, it immidiatly was harassment. If we didn;t want to co-operate, it was nearly treason. Considering there is no body higher than the council, we of course feel that double standards are being used there.

Same goes with people harassing the chapter. one of them gathered huge lynch-mobs to attack us and preached the death of all chapterians. THat person was reported to the council 3 times and not once was anything done about it. So, that person may cause lynch-crowds and preach death and destruction - but when the Chapter does it, its illegal.

Generally speaking, when after we had these experiences the Lighty comes to us and says "You must face responsibility for your actions!" chapter-members return a "how about you?".

What I wish to add: that being on the Light-side does not make you Pure and Holy per default. If your character makes mistakes or even breaks the law, you too should be ready to face the consequences for your actions. Regretably it is very hard to make trials against higher-up, though.

Chase: Thank you, and yes. I too believe that villains need to find that balance where they are not overbearing and not irrellevant. But's not a easy one to find and many begin being too prominent.

Rhebeca: Yes, in some cases it's caused by being disrespectful. Sadly. But sometimes there's also the situation where both sides think the other side "cheat" despite that neither are cheating. There's not much to do but to try to solve it. Accusing the other side of cheating/metagaming/whatnot is the worst way to handle it though. If you simply don't have fun, tell them that and if nothing changes: Step aside, leave and let them knock themselves out.

Saihna:
Thank you for your post, I truly hope I did not offend you (i get that impression from your post, I'm afraid). I just mentioned KoA in that you've been through the circus. You've been there and seen that. I'm aware that you used that to change for the better, and I applaud you for that. But mind that not everyone might have your unity or the ability to spot what can be changed without ruining what people like about their guild. Besides, you got to admit: It wasn't very fun at the time, was it? Wouldn't it be better if others were spared all that drama?

On your second point: The problem is that if you punish the guild that way, you punish the players. Finding that perfect balance between not being over-the-top and not being harmless is far from easy. They need help achieving that. The drama comes when they think that it's going to harm their guild, they're going to massively defend themselves ooc. They are literally defending their playtimes against a percieved threat. Hence the drama.
If they aren't very subtle, I don't think trialing them and punishing them harshly in a way that limits their roleplaying is the right way to go. All it's saying is that their roleplay is not welcome. Not why or what they can do about it.

Third point: I think I wasn't clear as to why "we should hold hands" in the punishments. It's about making taking the consequences more fun than comitting the crime. If you reward players who allow their characters to get caught with roleplay opportunities, then they're going to flee less, escape less and allow themselves to be captured more often. It's not about winning IC, but making it funnier to roleplay facing justice.
A trial should be a event where you decide what kind of rp that will come next, not a way to "teach the player" not to do that again. If that's the case, then yes. They're going to go back to robbing, harrassing you, attacking you... and why shouldn't they? That's how they get you to rp with them. Which is fun.

Oh... and about the analogy of prison vs. repetitive hunting. The latter is infinantely annoying. Believe me I know. At one point it's simply isn't worth it anymore. But... at least you can "choose not to do it"(it's more complicated, I know, I know). In a prison you're limited to what the warden provides and if the warden provides nothing... the choice ends up between being log off until the sentence is over or break out (and get those guards to chase you and rp with you).

Allowing alts to be executed is an excellent idea though. Thank you. DIdn't even think of that one.


Kristeas:
Yes. Definantely. It shouldn't be much more than a simple skirmish together. No complex rules or repercussions. Just something easy, quick and fun together.


---

Please do not use this thread to cast blame on the other side or anything in any conflict which you may or may not have been involved in. It leads to nothing.

Instead, please let's just dicuss the merits or fallacies of my idea (and possibly to discuss yourself)

(I havent read all yet, and Im off to a raid. Just wanted to make it clear I did not feel offended in any way =) Was just explaining it all)

I agree with everything above! You speak right things, guys. My russian brain tenses, trying to realise them, and... it does realise!

Now that the mess was told in details, I will completely reconsider my views upon certain aspects of roleplay!

Awesome post from Gahalla, thumbs up!

Yet they got shit thrown back at them like "Metagaming", and "ruining guilds" and "you never create RP anyway!".

That was me and I mentioned that I was not speaking on the Chapter's behalve. Just saying.

And what Imanuel said.

Doesn't really matter, other Chapterians has gone that road before as well so. Besides, it does happen overall anyway.

(Still need to read Gahallas response and reply once the raid is over)

After reading Gahalla's entire post (yaay me!), I cannot help but to think...

Spoiler:

Bennedict wrote:After reading Gahalla's entire post (yaay me!), I cannot help but to think...

Spoiler:

You're staying with us.

*Drags Bennedict back to Prologue*

We've got Warlock's to permakill (again), sweetheart.

Even if I haven't played in ages I do agree with what Gahalla wrote.

As a long time evul roleplayer over the years I have seen the silly circle Dark Sphere does every now and then.

With evil guilds I feel that it comes down alot more to staying small tightly knit community and plotting/staying hidden etc,. The Dark Sphere started going downhill when we started mass recruiting etc, I just couldn't help but facepalm everytime a new awakened recruit went around torturing and murdering.
Another thing I noticed that alot of people who roleplayed evil characters lacked patience, there always had to be someone to torture or kidnap or some evil grand plot underway.

Still, it has been a very long time that I've been part of the RP community :3

After reading the posts here, I can say I'm very enlightened. Good points, good discussion.
I haven't seen similar problems with the Cult (we don't go all evil towards others that much, atleast I think so) so I won't add anything to a topic I don't know enough about.

Dharum wrote:With evil guilds I feel that it comes down alot more to staying small tightly knit community and plotting/staying hidden etc,. The Dark Sphere started going downhill when we started mass recruiting etc, I just couldn't help but facepalm everytime a new awakened recruit went around torturing and murdering.
Another thing I noticed that alot of people who roleplayed evil characters lacked patience, there always had to be someone to torture or kidnap or some evil grand plot underway.

Agree with all of this. Give TDS with Ataris, Dharum and Shagrath back!

Gahalla, I just read your opening post: all interesting, but I didn't get your point.

Regarding stupid newcomers, let me know if one from my gang does something stupid. In order to become a proper criminal organization we invited some more guys, and because of some plots we didn't have the time to train them all one to one, so if you see them doing something stupid, just let me know. They will pay.

Anyway, trials' outcome is not the problem, but waiting for them is

First of all I have to say that I agree with everything you wrote there, Gahalla. Kudos for investing so much time and effort in creating this post, really.

I have generally tried to stay away from several of the drama situations you mentioned, the newest one being the Chapter one, although it's very well known by now that I too had some personal experience with the guild before, IC and OOC wise. I refrained from making any comments on the Trial thread, nor did I partake in the OOC discussions in-game. Despite the lack of my OOC involvement in all this (apart from the IC one obviously, since Mandui was a witness), I kept observing people's reactions on both sides and listening to what they have to say. This whole Chapter ordeal has come to add to the already existing conclusions I've drawn in the past four years I've been on this server, three and a half of which I spent RPing a member of the council.

I can see both sides being equally right and wrong at the same time, mostly because of the reasons you mentioned. The lack of communication and the eagerness both sides show to defend their standpoint often lead to situations like this, as similar occurrences in the past have clearly proven. However, what I find as the most disappointing fact in almost every single case where drama of these proportions comes to be, is the OOC conflicts that are born not because of the lack of communication, but because of people's OOC impression of others.

I'll name the council as an example. We are looked upon with spite more often than not, we are labeled as elitists who try to dictate/control other people's RP and we are naturally being seen as some of the worst people on the realm. Why? Because the IC "authority" the council represents doesn't sit well with many people. And I don't mean that it doesn't sit well with them ICly. I mean that OOCly certain people can't handle the fact that their characters do not hold that sort of "authority" themselves. No matter what we do, how well we do it, regardless of the effort we put into it, that certain aggressiveness remains.

If people only knew how it actually is to be a member of the council, many would drop this irrational OOC attitude towards us in many cases. We are really doing our best to co-ordinate and bring the whole of the alliance RP under one unified concept, spending a lot of time in- and out of the game in order to find ways to improve this and have the council be a sort of nod where all the alliance RPers cross ways and interact with each other. Yet, more often than not our efforts meet disapproval, nitpicking, complaints and in some cases even OOC harassment, fueled by insults.

You spoke about taking breaks, something that we all have taken from time to time. The spite and belligerent behavior towards us remains even after we're back however or is transfered to the one taking over, simply because its roots don't lie within the IC territory. Only 2 weeks ago and during a council meeting, I had someone openly admit to me in whispers that he was present only in order to irritate us OOCly and he actually did his best to do so on three different characters. This motive alone is indeed one based on OOC spite, since the player decides to have his character act in a way he/she normally wouldn't act according to his/her IC personality, and proves clearly that people do confuse IC and OOC to great extends. This person is only one of the dozens of people who actively attempt everything they possibly can to give the council as a whole a hard time, entirely disregarding the consequences this might have on the long run. Due to this kind of behavior received by many people over a long period of time, many of us lose our patience and at some point we might even begin to be aggressive in return or simply lose our willingness to do what we're supposed to do, namely provide more RP.

I believe if people actually knew of this, they would no longer wish to ever get a seat within the council. Not to mention that they might comprehend how frustrating it has come to be and lay down that sort of attitude. The Dark Sphere, the Crimson Flames, the Chapter, the dwarves and many others had/have their own agenda and they RP the way they see fit. However, all of those interact with the council and situations like the newest one is often something that we are forced to face, thusly leaving us barely any spare time to do anything else but solving OOC conflicts.

You have to imagine that for the ministers if it's not a certain guild causing trouble, then it'll be another and then another and another, all of them rotating and replacing each other in an endless circle of OOC conflicts, having the council constantly busy with silly OOC conflicts. Not to mention the random single individuals who pop up now and then to complain about this and that, also OOCly. This is the situation the council is in at the current moment. We feel like nothing more than the alliance RP community's complaint department and yet we keep trying to fix things every single time. It's only natural that even we might get frustrated at some point.

So, you see the problem here lies beyond the occasional lack of communication. This of course applies to many other cases as well, the council was but a mere example. People have to lay off with this silly OOC hatred. One's IC standing has nothing to say about their person OOCly. No one has the right to become OOCly cocky and snobish, just because their character is well known and/or possesses a certain IC standing. However, the same goes the other way around as well. Just because certain characters are important and renowned, doesn't necessarily mean that the people behind those toons are ass-kissers, snobs, assholes and all the other wonderful attributes people have so often given them OOCly.

Generalizing, making assumptions, stereotyping and judging them OOCly, only based on their IC behavior, is what has lead many plots/RP concepts/guilds to ruins and is still the most common reason for drama and a generally unpleasant RP environment. OOC egos should remain OOC and never be allowed to intrude the IC world.

Unless people understand this, things will not improve and we'll all be stuck in this rather shitty and anything but fun situations.

Well said, Mandui.

Damor/Zinkle: It's difficult to summarize the point, but I'll try. It's basically that people should do their utmost to help each others ooc, regardless of how much enemies they might be IC. A attitude that's about mutual fun and exchanging roleplay opportunities. Did that help?

Mandui: Thank you for your post Mandui, and believe me I understand how it is to sit on the council (even if it was probably easier when I sat in it). I did not know about people intentionally trying to irritate and ruin roleplay for you ooc however, that's completely unacceptable behaviour.
I agree with your last point completely, that we should stop judging and stereotyping ooc. I was hoping that this idea of mine, about the collective responisbility, would perhaps help improve this a bit. Not completely, because that it cannot do, but a little bit.

Disclaimer: This may perhaps seem a different kind of reply compared to the usual logically argumented reply you'd expect on a forum. I hope you can bear with me through this, hopefully more 'light-hearted' argumentation. It supports both the case of the villains and the lighties.

Present time.
The bell rings and with loud screams the children rush outside on the schoolyard. A group of four gathers:
"What do we play? Quickly! We must chose; we don't have much time.", sais one.
"Ohh, let's play cops and robbers!" sais another.
Cheerfully, the group agrees and soon another discussion begins.

"I'll be the robber!" sais one, chest forward and pointing his finger high.
Two good friends look at eachother, grinning softly and simultaneously reply "We'll be cops."
One boy seems lost in thought for a brief moment and agrees "I'll be victim."
Within the first minute the game and roles are decided and positions are taken. The two cops stand on one side of the schoolyard, discussing how they'll handle the chase. The victim walks around, the robber overacting a casual stroll by him when suddenly he gives the boy a pull on his shirt and shouts "I've stolen your money". He darts off, laughing, the victim shouting with pretended anger. The cops run to the victim who points at the criminal running away "He did it!". Immediately a chase is set in motion by one cop, while the other one offers to deputize the victim so he is allowed to join the chase. The offer is eagerly accepted and soon the criminal is pursued by 2 cops shouting, mimicking police sirens, and one deputy trying to cut corners to block the criminal. All children run, laughing and shouting till they tire a bit and the criminal is caught. With acted sincerity they dictate the law and punishment. Without real negotiation, the obviously punishment seems imprisonment. The criminal has to stand in a corner of the schoolyard, with one cop playing the guard. The other cop starts wander about, keeping an acted 'long distance'. A twists occurs in the game. The criminal offers to repay all the stolen money and more to the victim if the victim helps him break out. Suddenly the victim grabs the guarding cop and the criminal escapes. Soon, two kids are chasing two others, without real order nor structure and yet they somehow managed to time this perfectly by the time the bell rings and they go back to class.
A few hours later the bell rings again and the group gathers again. "What do we play? Cops and robbers?!" sais one. "No, how about we play war?" and cheerfully they agree, beginning their new game.


I can't help feel there is much to learn from these children.

Interesting points throughout the thread. From the OP I primarily stand by the point about communication; Easily the most important skill to have almost anywhere in life. Unfortunately communication sometimes runs into a dead end as Mandui describes; not everyone has the same skill and patience to discuss things. So starts the unfortunate OOC behavior he/she describes. Good communication is nevertheless a worthy goal to strive for continuously.

I also like to continue on Jeanpierre's lovely anecdote about children playing. He makes a very valid point. One I wanted to make myself as well albeit somewhat less poetically.

Design
Guilds should be designed; They should have a purpose. This purpose is most generally offering a type of role-play or experience to its members and/or the community at large.

Considering the points made in this thread and the unfortunate cycle that is described it seems the design of most new 'villain' guilds is only focused on the initiation of the guild; Its premise. As described this gets out of hand and people get upset further down the road.

Thusly a guild should be designed to only last as long as its premise allows. If the idea of the guild is not probable to survive for a long time it should be designed that the guild dies. If this happens from the get go there won't be as many troubles by guilds losing community patience, their core idea being lost or them living on into ridiculousness. If a guild is designed to survive, it should act appropriately by either staying out of trouble and finding its place, or considering consequences at the very outset of events (and even moreso, sharing them OOCly with those that have connections or would be affected). Thinking about the downfall of a guild and how it copes is something that should be considered from the start of the series of events, not as an afterthought.

Although the advantages to having a guild last are obvious, they aren't required for all guilds. Consider the goals of your guild carefully and then decide whether or not you should try to survive or move on to fresh pastures.

Although I mention this in conjunction with 'villain' guilds, it should apply to all guilds. Leaders should design the goals and purposes of their guild, short- and longterm. Just some thoughts to add to the discussion.

Disclaimer: I have read the entire thread. I have read the replies. I think the points here are very valid and all of Gahalla's points should be very well thought through and actual RP interactions changed accordingly.
Now, I shall do my best to make my own little filthy point that should in no way be viewed as a response to Gahalla's thread as a whole.

Random points:

@Gahalla: While I think you did great, I disagree with your categorization of the Chapter in the villians category. The chapter is radically different from the Sphere and the Cartel. Criminals and cultists are the antagonists of authorities and holy-boys. They are ethically dead people - the Chapter isn't, quite the opposite! They've got ethics and they stick to them 100% (ethics being: Don't let the cultists go, we need them down at all costs).

@Saihna: We've talked about this just the two of us before I don't agree with your categorization of the Chapter as evil. If anything, they're the enemy of evil.
Yes, they have killed people (evil people), yeah, they have tortured people (evil people), they've in general been more of an enemy to the cultists than anyone else around. Now, I know I can't decide your perspective, ofcourse, but I want to remind people that being fanatically dedicated to killing and defeating evil does not necesserily make you evil.

Also, your deduction that it is the good guys cutting all the slack is (very much) debatable. The Dark Side has to adjust all their activities in accordance with the good side and their stuff. We can't just claim places ICly in the same way and we suffer from being hunted by merely existing.

@Mandui: I think you deduction of people's intent when you say "I mean that OOCly certain people can't handle the fact that their characters do not hold that sort of "authority" themselves." is wrong. I have had a hard time around you guys because I thought your authority was unjustified, not because I wanted it for myself

My point:

Consequences. People go on and on about them.

We are enemies, enemies fight, when one side looses, the other has to win.
I think there is a general misunderstanding in this. It flurates around the chapter trial thread again. People are disappointed, they wanted to 'win' the trial.

I think this is created by a slight mix of OOC and IC. This isn't an accusation, by the way, as Gahalla stated we're all guilty of doing this - and I think at times it is even justified! That is another discussion, though.
I think people have come to view their character's ingame goals as their own goals OOC. When their character wants to do something, the given person wants to do that too. Basically, your characters IC goals and your own OOC goals melt together - and they don't have to!

In essence, your OOC goal is to get RP and have fun. That is the basics of things.

When someone is punished, being assaulted by cultists, for example, your character's goal is to kill the guy you're assaulting. You've been ordered to kill this dude. Your masters have told you that you're up for promotion if you do this well. You know this guy has done something bad to the other evil folks and you want vengeance.

If this becomes your OOC goals too you're bound to be disappointed. Most people won't build up a character just to have him destroyed. Even if you've got him in a cornor, surrounded by evil folks, people would rather make a miracle escape than die, even if they don't like things being unrealistic. This is both understandable and logical.

But if you seperate your OOC and your IC goals, your IC goals remain as stated above, but your OOC goal becomes solely to get RP.

Thus planning this assault, preparing for it and doing the assault will be RP for you, so far so good! The actual assault will result in RP aswell.
Even if the good guys whispers the guards OOCly to come help him (OMG metagame!) and they're only 4 vs 10, but get away anyway (OMG powergame!) it can still have been a great experience, great RP and a lot of fun.

Your character's IC goals didn't get fulfilled, but your OOC goals certainly did! Thus you may be unhappy ICly, but OOCly you should be dancing!

But, heck, that guy didn't face the consequences! He has been hunting cultists, thrown them into prison, tried to kill cultists, preaches that people should fight cultists etc. etc.
All this, and he took no consequences for it, even when the cultists spend a lot of time planning this and doing it well enough to be able to "win" ICly (4 vs 10).

Isn't that bad?

No. No. Not at all. Your OOC goals is what matters and they were fulfilled

Mordazan wrote:
@Mandui: I think you deduction of people's intent when you say "I mean that OOCly certain people can't handle the fact that their characters do not hold that sort of "authority" themselves." is wrong. I have had a hard time around you guys because I thought your authority was unjustified, not because I wanted it for myself

I never generalized, that's why I said "certain" people and not "everyone".

I can't help myself, I must discuss!

About the finding authority unjustified. That is something a lot of people nitpick on. But the thing is, there is most likely not a single person on our server, with authority that is unjustified. The people I have met with authority this far, has actually worked really really hard for a very long time to get where they are. And this also includes giving the server a lot of roleplay - I guess that goes the most for the Council. People may complain that it is silent at the moment. Yes sure, that might be so. But it is as was mentioned before. We've not had the time to get the events we've wanted to make up and running, due to always being forced to handle peoples ego-issues and dramatic stuff. Yet, a lot of the roleplay that does happen has in many cases a connection to the Council, be it intentional or not.

As for the Chapter being evil well.. They torture and kill innocents also. Just because you kill a few evil guys does not automatically make you a good guy, especially not when you kill a few innocents in between that. And the fact they don't have the authority to actually hunt the evil guys, not being a group with guard rights (at least within Stormwind), makes them lawbreakers as well. So I'd still say they lean more to the dark side of the force!


And about the alt execution thing - Yes I do think it would lift some of the bad feelings that the good guys have now and then that they never get cut some slack and win something. I for example plan to have my own cultist being caught to give some people opportunity to practice on judge skills, and practice some really harsh punishments. I think this would help a lot. Accepting the fact your character is not a God and may be caught and punished. And even though that goes the other way around as well, we still got to keep in mind as I said before: In a world like WoW, the good will always have the upper hand. The evil is sort of the side-kick in the story, creating the events. But in the end the Good will win (else there will not be a world left to play in). That is at least how I see it.