Regarding the Stormwind Crimes and Punishment

https://defiasrp.forumotion.net/in-character-f6/stormwind-crimes-and-punishment-t859.htm

First of all it's good to see a full list and their respective punishments, so kudos to that. But there's something that I wanted to touch upon that's always bothered me with the SW punishments.

Who the hell survives 30 lashes?

.. don't look at me, I got freed in court..

Ataris wrote:



Who the hell survives 30 lashes?

Paladins.

Madel/Vectoria/Koblitz wrote:

Ataris wrote:



Who the hell survives 30 lashes?

Paladins.

That's unfair towards other classes when looking on the statistics of paladins being brought to trial.

I had the number reduced, if you think 30 is bad, your head would have exploded from the original number.

I just wonder why you don't go with a death sentence while you're at it. o_o

The basic reason for setting it at 30 is so the actual punishment holds some weight. We can't give people the death penalty without their permission and the chances are most people aren't going to want their character killed anyway. On top of that, we can't use banishment because most people'll come back the next day with a hood on.

The number is high, sure, but it's been seen in the past that people receive their lashings and are seen the next day, happy as larry. The number really is about giving the punishment some substance, even if it is high in realistic terms.

And, murder is actually that frequent, I mean. Who let's their charecter be killed?

Ledgic/Omanos wrote:The basic reason for setting it at 30 is so the actual punishment holds some weight. We can't give people the death penalty without their permission and the chances are most people aren't going to want their character killed anyway. On top of that, we can't use banishment because most people'll come back the next day with a hood on.

The number is high, sure, but it's been seen in the past that people receive their lashings and are seen the next day, happy as larry. The number really is about giving the punishment some substance, even if it is high in realistic terms.

I see what you're saying but I honestly don't think the number matters to those kind of people. I've met plenty of opponents who have gotten back up to fight a few minutes after recieving pretty bad stab wounds and the like, but that does not mean that I in the future try to cut people's head off, if you catch my drift.

"lol ima just taek a health pot0n"

Or the more popular:

"a healr healed teh scarz 4 me. nothin der anym0ar"

I've always attributed the surviving/ignoring lashes to ignorance to what a whip really does with the back (for reference, it rips, tears and crushes the muscles in the back, but rolls over the bones and doesn't harm them. If I recall correctly 10 lashes are enough to cause permanent injury. Noone is expected to survive over 35).

I think that lowering the number to five or ten would be appropriate, seeing that the court will give them an additional sentence after all.

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Two laws I reacted to was the Fanatiscism and Cultism laws... they are very vague and seem fairly arbitrary. Especially fanatiscism. If you must have them you ought to make them much more clear.

"Any act of religious fanaticism or zealotry which is not sanctioned by the Church of the Holy Light" - what does that mean? Do you need written permission before you go acting irrationally? Can the church give you a free pass for murder? Does it need to be given before or after? Which priests can issue this? What in this case does the church of Light mean? How about elves with Elune and dwarves worshipping titans exclusively?

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Other than that, excellent work

I actually thought the number of lashes was too little ...

'Sup my power dwarf would survive that *nod*

But he wouldn't move for weeks or even months.
Lashing is nasty business, use the whip wrong and you could even manage to kill the person being lashed (hitting him in the back of the head for example)

great to see some things published. I hope that you'll stick to these rules and these rules only (allows the bad guys to work the rules )

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I would like to state something that should in NO way fill this thread with a heated discussion, but I'd like you to ponder:

Sex has NO place in roleplay, this is my personal oppinion. This is a game minors play aswell.
By creating laws against rape, Sexual Assault etc. your words could be seen as a justification of doing those things ICly, which (again, in my oppinion) is very, very, very wrong.
I know there are murder and such in there aswell, but sex crimes is still much more offensive than those.
An argument could be that the Council needs to be neutral and enhance RP even for those who like that kind of RP. I can understand why some would argue that, but it is still my personal oppinion that, for the good of the community, the council should denounce all sexual crimes as nonexistant.

Again, don't discuss this. Just think about it. Elaboration can and will be given through PM.

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As much as I am exited about actually knowing the rules we're supposed to follow, I'm really looking forward to version 2.0.

What I mean is, that this list merely states what is legal and what is illegal, there is no actual description as to what happends to the 'bad guys' if they commit a crime.
Are they getting a trial? How soon? What happends while they're in prison? I'm sure the minister doesn't just intent to tell the bad guys when they're thrown to jail "Heh, now you can't RP for the next xx amount of hours/days, because you have to rot in a prison cell" - how is this all going to enhance the RP for both sides?

As I said, I know such things take work, I'd love to help and this certainly is a step in the right direction.


as a more specific question:
Summoning a demon is illegal, but a felsteed is not classified as a demon, so that is okay? Same thing goes for demons outside the category, for instance if a player is RPing a demon.
What about undead? You can summon them as you please in Stormwind?

Great going
/Mordazan

Great work. Good to see an elaborate list of laws. However I feel it is my duty to go all-nazi in these kinds of threads!

-List is stated to be "For the eyes of the Stormwind Council, to be considered...." however you begin with stating
"Below you'll find a list of crimes and punishments that have been decided on by the Stormwind Council." These two are mutually exclusive.

-Mass Murder. Killing 4 people over a short period of time. How short is -short-? We are talking about codified laws here, and such things must be pecified!

-You frequently list crimes which have a <punishment> followed by "untill court descision is made". While other crimes simply have the <punishment>.
First of all, this gives the impression that judges may pick additional punishments which are not in the list.

For instance execute Mass Murderer after he got 30 lashes. If that is the case, then I believe you should add an appendix of "Accepted Punishments" and at least 1-2 rules to serve as guidelines for determining the severity of a court verdict. "In Stormwind City the severety of punishment may never exceed the severity of the crime" and "In Stormwind City monetary compensation is deemed suited to reimburse inflicted damage, mental and physical", then for instance a judge cannot execute a thief who has not murdered, but it can fine a slanderer.

Secondly, these laws give the impression that some punishments can be meted out WITHOUT a trial. Which is contrary to the Council's claims throughout the years that nobody may be punished without a trial. And most importantly, nobody may be trialed before being proven guilty. So it looks like these laws (a) give guards the power to judge over guilt and innocence (b) abolish the principle of 'no punishment without a trial'. If this be the case, it should be explicitly stated to avoid confusion. If it is not so, then laws must be made clearer on that part.

-Cultism. We need a list of powers which -are- sanctioned by the church. Right now this law is as open to interpretation as anything. You can accuse of cultism a follower of the legion as well as a deranged harmless loony who worships Geldar as God-Emperor of Mankind. (unless Geldar is sanctioned by the church, in which case the Chapter will most definatly convert)

-Zealotry is punished more severely than Cultism, Sexual Assault, Robbery and many other crimes. More over, from the way the law is made a follower of the Church of the Holy Light cannot be guilty of zealotry by default. Also, every cultist is also guilty of zealotry when/if he spreads his beliefs. Also, zealotry is more severely punished than descecration of church property! Zealotry is apparently more heretical....than heresy!

-Bribe law is unclear. Punishment makes it look like only bribing officials is a crime, but law itself is more general.

-I found NO law against Dark Arts, Shadow Magic and Necromancy while it was not only stated,but also evoked against Aislin during a council meeting. Either we should hang Geldar for corruption, or add that law.

-There is no law against bearing of arms in certain places (council meetings?) and masks. Therefore, every person may enter bearing arms and masked.

-There is no law against torture. Therefore torture may be used by guards for the extraction of information. Right?

-It looks like people can only be arrested when caught red-handed. Might add a law explaining mechanics of arrest warrents, and arrests on suspicion.

Now end remarks which I believed to be justified and come my suggestions

-Most of the punishments suggested I believe to be boring RP-wise. Detainment for 24 hours is a good way to ensure the guy doesn't do crime 5 minutes after capture, but it feels so...hollow. Fines of gold are also rather hollow character-wise. Unless this was somehow hidden in "Court Descision" I suggest to have:
=Civil Works, criminals cleaning, scrubbing and drenging as well as other menial work one can conceive of.
=Public humiliations.
=Having one's name and crimes proclaimed by town-criers. (this is more of an encouragement...but hey!)

-Should add appendices which briefly state the powers the guards have. (may they ask anybody to identify themselves and remove their mask? May they ask any person to leave a public area?)
-Should add appendices which state the powers of the Councilors. (some of them act as guards, stating that being a minister gives them guard rights)
- ..... stating the powers of the Council. (may it make descisions regarding Guilt and Innocence during meetings? May it revoke and bestow guard rights arbitrarily, or are there some rules? Does council have the right to refuse a hearing?)
-You should steal&paste Terenor's book on the procedings of a court.

I like the idea that Imanuel proposed, i.e. making the punishments more "creative".

Imanuel wrote:=Public humiliations.

It would be way interesting seeing people going around with "A's" stitched into their clothes :p.

Oh! and. You need to add that severest crime over-rules others.

Because right now if you slap your enemy across the face, then club him over the head and when he tries to run throw a granade after him while shouting "Down with the King! Down with the Council", that granade explodes and kills the man in question and three others.

That person is guilty of: harrassment, assault, armed assault, murder, murder-by-neglect ,mass murder, slander against the King, treason, damaging royal property (assuming parts of cobblestone got damaged by the granade) and disturbing of public peace.

What he should be trialed for: Mass Murder, Treason, Damaging of State property. (severest crime in each logical category)

Food for thought: What if that person also follows a sect within the Holy Light not sanctified by the church, and he yelled a prayer while throwing the granade, and it turns out that the prophet the sect worships is in fact a demon in disguise?

Damn it Imanuel, now you made me want to come back and make a lawyer character D:

Dharum wrote:Damn it Imanuel, now you made me want to come back and make a lawyer character D:

Do it. Make it a dwarf. too! Had a dwarven lawyer in NWN once and it was loads of fun.

Some crimes are handles with:
{{{ - Punishment: -- To be imprisoned until a court decision is made --

What if the court is on a vacation for a month. Does that mean a month of imprisonment?
This ties someone else's RP to the court's activity and online presence. It might work untill someone is afk for a prolongued time for OOC reasons. Maybe something could be worked out here or a rule can be added?

EDIT: other than that, I like the work so far. Thanks for this.

Jeanpierre/Jeanclaude wrote:Some crimes are handles with:
{{{ - Punishment: -- To be imprisoned until a court decision is made --

What if the court is on a vacation for a month. Does that mean a month of imprisonment?
This ties someone else's RP to the court's activity and online presence. It might work untill someone is afk for a prolongued time for OOC reasons. Maybe something could be worked out here or a rule can be added?

EDIT: other than that, I like the work so far. Thanks for this.

I'm going to assume that in such cases, the court's decision would be determined OOCly "off-stage" (in cooperation with whoever the court consists of if possible), or else an IC replacement of the court would have been arranged.

With regards to lashes. 30 lashes wouldn't kill or permanently disabled. Usually. Obviously this is dependant on the person receiving, and the giving the lash. And the implement used to lash (a "cat", whip, cane etc).

The British Army were recorded as administering 1000+ lashes (or flogs, as the sentence was floggings) as a maximum punishment in the 1800s. 1000+... that did usually disable or kill yes. They would even stop as they were administered, make sure the prisoner was awake and then continue. In America the lash limit was usually much less (about 100).

Anywhere upwards of a handful of lashes would cause massive pain, and wounds. Over 30 would take some lengthy time to heal. Infection would often kill people if the lash didn't. Anything over 100 would leave bone and muscle open to the air. Gods alone know what 1000 did...

I'd say that's all dependant on the kind of lash and the lasher more than who's on the recieving end. I'm pretty sure 30 lashes is more than enough to literally partially flay someone provided the correct means.

Hence the first bit of my post Ataris...!

Ataris wrote:I'd say that's all dependant on the kind of lash and the lasher more than who's on the recieving end. I'm pretty sure 30 lashes is more than enough to literally partially flay someone provided the correct means.

I thought we were talking about Mandui here, dressed in a leather suit and a little whip-kind of lashings?