Military guilds, desertion, and punishment

Well, with redoing the guild concept and everything, and Greyford Company still being, in some ways, a work in progress, I'm trying to improve on things I've done a shitty job of in the past, so I'm looking for opinions on a few things. IC punishments for desertion (and everything else, I guess) being one of them.

So, to emphasize the point of travel times and to emphasize that we're military, I've always tried to give out major IC punishments for leaving an area with permission, wandering off to do other things, going to Stormwind and getting drunk and meeting people and then being back in Darnassus the next day, etc. In the past I was conflicted about that because, if we aren't providing enough for people to do, then they'll get bored and it's unfair to restrict them. But we now check before new members join that they're okay with said restrictions and that they fully understand them so they should be okay with it. And, because we're just getting started so we don't have RP all day long, I'm lenient and I'll mostly ignore it. But when we get enough activity and people still do it, that's the problem.

In the event that people desert and come back, I'm unsure of what I should do. Raenmar doesn't accept corporal punishment so that isn't an option, so the best option to get the message across is usually suspension. Which should be great. But usually, I don't go through with it because I feel like I'm depriving people of RP. They're not allowed (ICly) to be at any guild events, and they won't have access to whatever outpost we're based in. And, while I think it'd get the point across IC and OOC of the type of guild we are, I also think it's partly punishing people OOC for what they do IC.

So, yeah. I'd just like some opinions on whether this is the right or wrong thing to do, and, if it's wrong, some suggestions on what I could do better.
Thanks

In my opinion you shouldn't restrict where people go. It is your job as guild leader to provide RP at your "HQ" and thus encourage people to stay. On the other hand, if even after you've provided RP they still continue to not show up, then speak with them on an individual level, and if they don't improve, gkick (ICly dishonorable discharge). But really, making your HQ a proper hub should be all it takes to get people to stick around.

If people can travel back and forth freely and instantly, then it takes away most of our RP. Travelling is pointless, and we aren't "stuck", so we'll have no problems with supplies or anything. The restrictions are just something that comes with this type of RP. But it's definitely not for everyone, which is why we've been trying to make it clear to new members.

But yeah, I'm being lenient while we don't have a completely active RP hub. As for speaking to them, I'd prefer to deal with it IC, because it's an IC issue if their character leaves. Although I guess speaking to them OOC should come with an IC punishment, or maybe one before the other.

Raenmar wrote:If people can travel back and forth freely and instantly, then it takes away most of our RP. Travelling is pointless, and we aren't "stuck", so we'll have no problems with supplies or anything. The restrictions are just something that comes with this type of RP. But it's definitely not for everyone, which is why we've been trying to make it clear to new members.

But yeah, I'm being lenient while we don't have a completely active RP hub. As for speaking to them, I'd prefer to deal with it IC, because it's an IC issue if their character leaves. Although I guess speaking to them OOC should come with an IC punishment, or maybe one before the other.

I've been in a lot of military guilds in the past, none have ever needed a 'you must stay here' policy. You establish a base and, as long as you make sure to create activity in that base, they'll stick around. For the most part, people will only wander off if they feel like they have nothing going on. Essentially... people wandering off is usually indicative of the guild not providing enough activity, not a fault of the member in question (unless said member is consistently RPing somewhere else while the guild is RPing together).

The key thing is to make sure to have a core group of leaders, particularly sergeants (who should only be sergeants if they actually lead). Never take on the whole leadership mantle yourself... delegation is very important for these types of guilds. As long as there is a good group of active leaders who are frequently available and willing to create RP every day (whether it be training, or small patrols, etc), then people will want to stick around.

This is not to say that you can't OOCly ask people to stick around, and you should definitely tell people regularly to RP at the hub. I just feel making it a hard policy that you enforce with OOC or IC punishments to be going over the top. Create activity so people want to stick around, instead of forcing them to stay for fear of punishment. Positive encouragement, not negative.

Raenmar:

When you have a guild concept and head out on events..
If people dont have people to rp with on those events being far from their usual rp hubs.. They will go there.. Because:

Its like putting a char in prison.. Some people dont have alts.. So they will leave on their main char, to find the rp they want. For the lack of rp in one place will leave them sitting alone.. Out in the woods.. None to rp with. Which if they did have alts that they -wanted- to rp on, wouldnt be a problem...

But events and taking a guild far from the main rp places, will lead to such travels..

People wont log off wow if they want to play just because the rest of the people went to bed. Hence..

This is a problem you will face. Punishing people for leaving late at night with the excuse they could log an alt.. Well yes.. Its a double edged sword..

I got no good solution rather than.. Allow them to do.
You may try to restrict it.. icly speaking.. and punish it.. As should be. But the players wont enjoy the ooc restriction.

I know it'd be wrong to restrict people OOC as we are now, which is why IC punishments aren't happening. This is more about when we're providing a good amount of RP (but not 24/7, because I don't even know if that would ever be possible) and people still leave.

The idea of sergeants is a good one. We do have the rank, I just haven't had a chance to work out who seems best suited for it yet, but it's a priority.

But I do still think that some form of IC punishment is needed and an OOC restriction, if there's a good amount of guild RP being provided. If we're based in Gilneas but people jump on their gryphons and fly to Stormwind for a drink every night, it just makes our RP entirely pointless.

desertion, should be when people walk out of your event with express IC orders to stay.

imo.

I kinda see what you mean. Freelancers bein an exploration guild and going up and about into other zoned and most are with no resident other RPers. So naturally i decide to etiher make it a shorter trip, bring other guilds along, or try to find a RP hub area.
Same here sometimes there aren't enough people online sometimes the next day, so it's kinda tricky. In the past it worked out with areas like Darnassus -> darkshore , RP-PvP event around the time -> Ironforge.

Personaly if they have to log off mid-event or so, we can always say he/she got hit on the head (Kinda a punishment), or went back to the camp, went to guard a area, send as a scout back... and so on.

But as it was said you have to have a active Hub placed, possibly with extra players stationed there (from other guilds possibly) or if you got enough players in general that it doesn't matter. Or if they have alts to log on.

desertion, should be when people walk out of your event with express IC orders to stay.

imo.

Is the thing you consider logical, but leads to role-play that isn't fun for all parties involved?

Don't do it.

Is the thing you're considering fun for all parties involved, but highly illogical and nonsensical?

Don't do it.

Is the thing you consider logical, but leads to role-play that's fun for everyone?

Do it!

This may seem like an open door to kick in, but sometimes when you are considering implementing a rule it can be just as simple as weighing these factors against one another. So many times have I seen role-play suffer just because people are insistant on pushing trough rules that make perfect sense from an IC standpoint, but only lead to frustration and drama for all involved. At the same time, I am sure you are also familiar to the opposite: if all good sense is sacrificed in the name of good fun, it will lead to meta-gaming, godmoting and other lollerisms that will completely break your immersion and deflate all your role-play of any worth. It leads to pointless role-play, as you yourself called it.

You need both, it needs to both make sense and be fun. If something makes sense but isn't fun, then don't do it. If something is fun but doesn't make any sense, don't do it.

In this case I think what you have is something that makes perfect sense, but isn't fun for all parties involved, as some people already pointed out. Drustai put forward a comprimise I think is very sensible to consider, since it is a positive way to solve a problem, rather than a negative (i.e rewarding presence rather than punishing absence) and those are always preferable.

I just wanted to write something about the tension between so-called "quality" role-play that kills any joy and creativity on the one hand, and lollerisms that break immersion on the other, and used this thread is a thinly-veiled excuse to do so.

...Carry on!

In the Marauders desertion is something actively roleplayed and hasn't often happened.
A deserter is someone who makes a point of roleplaying deserting.

Someone who stops turning up for OOC reasons is just treated as having either urgent personal business IC or has been out on a mission.

Grim wrote:In the Marauders desertion is something actively roleplayed and hasn't often happened.
A deserter is someone who makes a point of roleplaying deserting.

This hits an important point: role-play desertion if both parties want to role-play desertion, just like, ideally, you'd want to role-play imprisonement, only if both parties desire to role-play imprisonement (though this is sadly a rarely realized ideal)

There is great wisdom in this thread.

I'm a great fan of spreading a realistic vibe over to my guildies. Travel can be fast, but ocasionally rping a boatride or travelling is fun aswell. I do however make clear to them that you need to try and keep a bit of realism in the back of your mind, if someone would end up hopping from Silvermoon to Stormwind and from Stormwind to booty bay, I'd mention it to them and just suggest they use a little timeskip they dont have to rp it all out but just going "My John. That travel sure drained me. I could do with a good rest!" is good enough to me.

I've also made a habbit out of telling recruits that desertion during war-times without a valid excuse will be punished by execution. It hasnt happened once, but it gives a dark vibe that I think suits our roleplay, however when such things -do- happen (desertion being rp'd out) it is just a matter of oocly communicating. Punishment wont ever be forced upon anyone we're still here to have fun regarding the prison rp, 19 out of 20 times a suiting punishment can be sorted within minutes, it provides roleplay and its also an oppertunity to drag random roleplayers in. (Who doesnt love a good show?)

If the crime deserves a "bigger" punishment I myself could have it sorted within a day aswell however the current "laws" and "court" system limit such efficiency, but just talking to people oocly seems to always clear everything up.