Loldodging?

Demurral wrote:In all honesty, I have always seen Death Knights as being animated by a combination of all three aspects -
Frost, to keep sections of the body cold to reduce bacteria and the rotting process.
Blood, to keep flow of blood moving around the body to cause animation to occur - ie, moving around your arms, legs, etc.
Unholy, to control the insects and such wee beasties inside the body, and direct them towards others, and to help with the general reanimation process - magic literally manipulating bones, muscle and tendons, or else replacing those things as magical constructs, in a sense.

That is actually a very interesting, and workable, interpretation. I'm jealous that I didn't think of it.

I agree with Skaraa here.

DKs being "dry" and overly susceptible to fire is down to a player-made guide, not ANY in-game lore. Most play by it simply to give their DKs another weakness, as they're quite powerful.

Incidentally, Helmet, you lot shoulda done your research when making up them bullets. I remember that. Elementium isn't actually stated to be all that tough. It IS very heavy, and conducts elemental magic, though.

DKs are OP lorewise, yes there's ways around it, but it's all down to who's RPing and how good they are. I'd rather fight an overpowered class that's RP'd well and fairly, with consideration for all involved, than deal with someone of a weak class who metagames three zones over into RP with a small army and perfectly-prepared weaponry against an enemy they've never faced, loldodging everything and expecting the DK to lose "because you're teh villainz and bad guy must lose."

People forget it's about the damn story, and just want to win.

Play a Darkmoon gymnast and dodge absolutely everything with acrobatic flips and brightly coloured leotards.

Swan Emperor Arenfel wrote:Play a Darkmoon gymnast and dodge absolutely everything with acrobatic flips and brightly coloured leotards.

New character incoming.

Play a Darkmoon gymnast and dodge absolutely everything with acrobatic flips and brightly coloured leotards.

I love you, Arenfel. ^^

As I've said a million times, my point isn't that all warriors are equal to DKs - but that if someone role-played one of equal power, they're fully within their right to do so. Which was addressing your original point, Skaraa. You called the idea stupid to which you were wrong.

All DKs are strong. Far stronger than your average soldier for sure. But if I want to RP a Hunter who can go toe to toe with a DK on his own, I'm breaking no lore and it's entirely logical inside the WoW world.

It's not about winning, Feral, but the warped view that a DK must be the strongest of the classes. Look at the other classes abilities and where they stem from, that gives you an idea of their potential.

I didn't say the argument was about winning, I said that RP has become as much. I've had people go silent for five minutes after pretty much -requesting- combat, just to bring in a metagamer bearing heavy mechanical weaponry. It takes it from what could potentially be fun rp to just "sigh."

The point was that the class doesn't matter to me so much as not having to deal with bullshit like that--good rp with true-to-character interactions > everything.

As I've said a million times, my point isn't that all warriors are equal to DKs - but that if someone role-played one of equal power, they're fully within their right to do so. [B]Which was addressing your original point, Skaraa. You called the idea stupid to which you were wrong.[b]

I just went back and checked. I didn't call a warrior beating a DK stupid, I called the idea of a warrior long jumping 20ft in plate armour stupid; because it is stupid.

Game mechanic powers are a guideline for the kinds of things a class can do, they do not constitute solid canon lore. Especially when they are as absurd as that is. Would you also argue that I would be justified to have my Warrior transform into a colossus for 15secs (or whatever it is)? I doubt it, somewhat.

Let me clarify that I think this idea is stupid, I don't think that you are stupid. ^^

Yes, there are circumstances under which a Warrior can defeat a Death Knight. We have not argued against that, as I stated above, what we're are saying is that Death Knights are overpowered compared to other classes. That isn't a good thing. This isn't about wanting to be OP on our DK characters (as also said previously). It is about the lore from our perspective and our interpretation of it.

But I've made my point on this, I just wanted to correct your quotation of me.

Well, this discussion has changed a lot from its original subject I don't mind but it is a bit strange. Always when I create a post, a massive conversation follows.

Would you also argue that I would be justified to have my Warrior transform into a colossus for 15secs (or whatever it is)? I doubt it, somewhat.

Well.... [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

Yes, you kinda could. With taking some things into consideration of course.

Many of the abilities of classes can serve as inspiration for their powers. Each player character can be powerful, or weak, in their own way. At the same time many things in the game are there because it's a game, not because it's particularly accurate in the lore or stories Blizzard tells, and likewise in the roleplay we have. As players we have to determine which is which, and everyone has their own idea about that.

Resurrecting people from the dead in about ten seconds, without any problem?
Makes dying and therefor danger rather pointless, so should probably be kept very rare in roleplay.

Flying over the entire continent of Azeroth in five minutes?
Makes the world a tiny, insignificant place if done repeatedly and with the ease flying mounts work. Should probably not be taken IC as is.

But a dwarf warrior may very well turn into a colossus (as Mountain Kings do. A cool archetype that totally exists in the lore). A big hulking orc might very well wield two two-handers with brute strength. But don't do all the things, all at once, it's not about being a god but having a coherent character. Learn to also take on board some flaws in your character, it makes it more fun.

My warrior can jump 20ft in the air in plate armour, slam down, ram her shield in people's faces, or reflect spells off of it should she get enraged enough to do it. Because sometimes I want to play a bad-ass. Warriors can do these things. It's about the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

If being a bad-ass all the time starts taking away from RP rather than add to it, it becomes annoying. If you read somewhere that your magical armour makes you immune to everything, or that you actually can't die... Or that your class can do this, this, this and this, and also this... Learn to find those limits. Take that one line in the lore about being immortal with a pinch of salt. As I've mentioned before; read the situation and give everyone some fun.

Articulated in that thoughtful way, Rinoi, alright you've got me thinking slightly differently about Heroric Leap (and abilities like it).
I understand your side, now.

You can also take things as professions into account, say.. You have a warrior that can jump twenty feet because they have some kind of gnomish/goblin contraption. There is always a way to do things in game. All about how you go about it.

[quote="Skaraa"]

Seeing a warrior or mage standing up to a DK without any pause/blinking is stupid.

^ the point I was referring to! In the context, it seemed that you thought they couldn't go toe to toe with one without using trickery.

To further Charlie's point, you could have enchanted armour or a metal like LOTR's mithril.

What if it's a really good warrior / mage?
What if the Death Knight is brain-dead?

A lot more goes into a character than "class"

Lyniath wrote:
What if the Death Knight is brain-dead?

The point that Skaraa's side makes is that the Death Knight isn't brain dead. The third generation death knights were hand picked by Arthas himself from among the finest champions of the Alliance and Horde. By being a Death Knight, just existing automatically qualifies you as part of the elite club in terms of how powerful your character is ICly. You were a general of the scourge. That's not an easy achievement, and it's the lowest you can start at as a Death Knight.

A warrior, meanwhile, starts as a random nobody whose first assignment is to be a pest control. There's no prior achievements, no automatic claim to fame by being a level 1 warrior. A warrior can potentially be a useless person who'd barely be good enough to be an inn keeper, let alone a legendary killing machine.

Think of it this way: A level 100 warrior can by all means stand toe to toe with death knights (and going by game mechanics, they've had the advantage for most of the time DKs have been around) and will often emerge the victor. There's no problem here: The DK can lose. However, a level 1 warrior can NEVER stand up to a DK. Not because a level 1 DK is much stronger, but because the DK can never be level 1. The floor is higher for DKs, and unless you're strong enough to stand on THEIR floor, you will never find a DK you can stand up to.

That should be no means mean that you're not absolutely free to claim that your character is strong enough. If your mage is ICly strong enough to what would game mechanically be level 55, then you're strong enough to ICly take on a death knight. Go go.

Also: People who think they can decide how strong other people's characters can/can't be are twats, don't listen to them.

I contest that they are hand picked by Arthas. The starter quests heavily hint that the 3rd gen were being as close to mass produced as possible as powerful shocktroopers, less so as generals. That honor went to 2nd gens usually.

Quest text for the first DK quest wrote:"All that I am: anger, cruelty, vengeance - I bestow upon you, my chosen knight. I have granted you immortality so that you may herald in a new, dark age for the Scourge.

Gaze now upon the lands below us. The Scarlet Crusade scurries to undo my work, while Light's Hope stands defiantly against us - a blemish upon these Plaguelands. They must all be shown the price of their defiance.

You will become my force of retribution. Where you tread, doom will follow. Go now and claim your destiny, death knight."

The bolded parts heavily imply Arthas personally had a hand in picking you out as a DK.

True, but I suspect that the PC is a bit of a snowflake in this regard. What I refer to is when you walk around the scourge-held Acherus, you see Death-knight levels of intelligence coming from those being newly risen when they are asked who they serve. I cant find the quotes, but its split between those who are ready to serve, and those who awake confused, and are swiftly devoured by the ghouls.

Are we sure that isn't singular? The same way one might complete a quest to hunt a specific character? Are all DKs in the starter zone hand picked and generals?

I'd assume it a similar situation to the Garrison "Commander" thing

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:

Quest text for the first DK quest wrote:"All that I am: anger, cruelty, vengeance - I bestow upon you, my chosen knight. I have granted you immortality so that you may herald in a new, dark age for the Scourge.

Gaze now upon the lands below us. The Scarlet Crusade scurries to undo my work, while Light's Hope stands defiantly against us - a blemish upon these Plaguelands. They must all be shown the price of their defiance.

You will become my force of retribution. Where you tread, doom will follow. Go now and claim your destiny, death knight."

The bolded parts heavily imply Arthas personally had a hand in picking you out as a DK.

Yeah but this is prior to Arthas revealing that they are all.. basically shocktroopers with their only real purpose being luring out Tirion Fordring so Arthas can murder him.
The revelation of how expendable they all actually are being a central part of why the Ebon blade sorta go "Fuck this noise" and switch sides.
I mean I don't see why Arthas wouldn't lie a bit to give his stronger-willed minions a bit of a confidence boost.
"Go on slugger, you are the best of the best buddy, totally not expendable to me!"

Ixirar/Kavalis wrote:

Lyniath wrote:
What if the Death Knight is brain-dead?

The point that Skaraa's side makes is that the Death Knight isn't brain dead. The third generation death knights were hand picked by Arthas himself from among the finest champions of the Alliance and Horde. By being a Death Knight, just existing automatically qualifies you as part of the elite club in terms of how powerful your character is ICly. You were a general of the scourge. That's not an easy achievement, and it's the lowest you can start at as a Death Knight.

A warrior, meanwhile, starts as a random nobody whose first assignment is to be a pest control. There's no prior achievements, no automatic claim to faim by being a level 1 warrior. A warrior can potentially be a useless person who'd barely be good enough to be an inn keeper, let alone a legendary killing machine.

Think of it this way: A level 100 warrior can by all means stand toe to toe with death knights (and going by game mechanics, they've had the advantage for most of the time DKs have been around) and will often emerge the victor. There's no problem here: The DK can lose. However, a level 1 warrior can NEVER stand up to a DK. Not because a level 1 DK is much stronger, but because the DK can never be level 1. The floor is higher for DKs, and unless you're strong enough to stand on THEIR floor, you will never find a DK you can stand up to.

That should be no means mean that you're not absolutely free to claim that your character is strong enough. If your mage is ICly strong enough to what would game mechanically be level 55, then you're strong enough to ICly take on a death knight. Go go.

Also: People who think they can decide how strong other people's characters can/can't be are twats, don't listen to them.

Okay... just to clear things up. OOC levels have NO effect on RP what so ever. (well, only what you can transmog, that would be the only effect... and where you can go to RP). A level 20 can defeat a level 100 depending on what and how that person RP. I had a level 10, 89 year old warlock, which ofcouirse had a weak body but DAMN, his magic where powerful. OOC content and limits don't matter in any way, shape OR form. So don't mention levels, please.

I was using levels as analogies to better explain the arguments made by the two sides. I never claimed OOC Character level is a conflict resolution tool.

So you didn't really clear anything up, mate. Try reading a post over a few times before correcting somebody.

As for:

Are we sure that isn't singular? The same way one might complete a quest to hunt a specific character? Are all DKs in the starter zone hand picked and generals?

Good question. I'd go with not singular though because he tells you that before you even get your runeblade and he's the only one who treats you as anything out of the ordinary. A few moments later, for example, you're slaying failed acolytes to prove that you're worth the Scourge's time.