Bitter Lamentations – A confession of a RP Guild Leader

by **Mallucis** Mon Apr 18, 2016 2:58 pm

Disclaimer:
This message is purely Out Of Character. I am writing it to share my doubts, that arouse since I have started to run my own guild in June last year. I share it because I hope, that it may help "those in power" stop for a second and think about the ways they approach others, maybe much younger, maybe less thoughtful RP entrepreneurs.

I have been a fan of the Warcraft series since the very beginning in 1994. When World of Warcraft had finally come out I was not yet able to afford paying for subscription, and the availability of prepaid cards in my country was low. Together with my brother we travelled through different private servers, very often being granted the GM status, so we could explore the game in all its features (as much as a server could provide). When the moment to join official servers came in 2008, I insisted on joining an RP-PvP server. The first one was The Venture Co. However, I have never met any single RP event back then, and for a long time I had no idea how a roleplay in WoW may look like. That changed the moment we have joined Defias Brotherhood, as, I had heard, the biggest hub of roleplay of all these servers.

So, we have joined the server in 2012. The roleplay back then was easy to spot – Stormwind was full of guilds and roleplayers. We started to ask around, looking for a guild for paladins, as this was always my favourite class. We have contacted Maelmoor and he invited us to Holy Lightbringers.

From there the roleplay started to be more and more visible. Learning about different events let me see how did it work. In the beginning I was quite shy and withdrawn, with just a draft of some background story there, and still wearing some epic armour IC. But I was observing, learning all the time how it was done and what did I need to tune in.

One of my first observation was that there were some individuals treated with a high respect by others. Generally these were guild leaders. Falrock, Maelmoor, Helmut, Valestrion, Wulfgnar, Janelle, Calisar, Iriiel, and more. If they said something In Character, then the rest had no reasons not to trust them, as they had never been wasting words. Soon I learned, that it was mostly because they all had started long ago from zero level and, with time and character development, they progressed, reaching their status both thanks to IC and OOC engagement.

So, I knew there is no way I can start by roleplaying a mighty paladin from the day one and started to prepare a background for Mallucis, a grown-up, who does not know much about Azeroth, because he spent a lot of time on Outland. He was hired by HLB as a blacksmith and a “hammer-to-hire” in times of need. Hence, the journey began.

For those of you who have never been in either Disciples of Light, nor in Holy Lightbringers you must know, that progressing through ranks there was not easy. It took me two years to be knighted In Character (first promotion), and involved taking part in almost every event, not to mention creating my own. After two years of roleplaying I realised that the time to help the Community was at hand, so I decided to apply for the post of Minister of Trade.

That was achievable only because the DB RP Crisis had struck the Community, causing many major guilds to move to different realms, and the roleplay was almost non-existent. For couple of months the Council sessions did not take longer than fifteen minutes, and the Councillors had to ask people to join it as well as trying to create any traffic and provide the Community with whatever roleplay possible. I must admit I was not the best person to do it. From the other hand in that time, when it was hardly possible to assemble a group of roleplayers eager to do WPvP event, no one would have been interested in any “Trade RP” (Emiraude’s Cattle Run, for instance, gathered 7 people in total, including four from the Ninth). So, I focused on repairing the meta aspect of the Ministry: I created a quasi-background for it at [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], I read through all former posts on defiasrp forums and proposed a [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] for the use of roleplayers. In return I was only laughed at and told, that I must not have been serious if I believed that incorporating RPG books into the roleplay in game was any good idea. In other words: two weeks of my work for nothing.

Half a year passed and I saw there was little I could do on that post. So, I started to think how else I could help the Community. Myself and many others knew very well, how the Council is perceived, and how hard it is for new roleplayers to approach it with anything. Little did I know back then, always defending the Council, unable to see the point in the criticism the Council had been receiving. I also noticed that strangely there was no roleplay connected with knights and chivalry; like, this universe, that not only resembles IRL medieval times, but also has a very rich lore in those aspects, have nothing to propose in that way. Therefore I began to brew the concept of House of Nobles, a body that would not only help the Council, by addressing all those who have failed in proposing their ideas to the Council, but also by promoting the nobility and all that is connected with it. But I knew, that in order to start it, I needed more IC reasons to do it. So, I postponed it, spreading the concept to random players in the meantime.

In April, as far as I remember, two guard guilds have left the server, creating a huge hole in the realm RP. Since then the Law RP ceased to be, as there were no guards who could catch criminals. Consequently, those roleplaying criminals had nothing to do.
After two weeks of their absence, seeing that no one had been trying to help the situation, I started to ask about that matter IC, requesting for it to be solved as a top priority thing. After couple of weeks of my repeated appeals Minister of Defence said why wouldn't I have taken care of it. That was a moment I was waiting for and I grabbed it. Next month everything was prepared and “Light’s Hammer” started to recruit.

When I announced this I was greeted with a harsh response from Valestrion who set the line very clear – if I create a guild for paladins, then I am his competitor.

23rd of June 2015:

Indeed, I had always been dreaming of having a guild for paladins, and my former intention about the “Light’s Hammer” was precisely to be the one. But, I didn't want to create any tension and I somehow agreed, that there are two paladin branches of the Silver Hand already, so why should I create the third? I needed to redraft everything. I came up with a plan, that the guild will serve as guards for some time and then it will join the Argent Crusade and move from Stormwind, not to be a competition to Disciples or Lightbringers. Before that happens, I needed to form this guard unit in a way, that would not allow all past “sins” of former guard guilds to happen. I incorporated the Three Virtues to that, each member of the “Light’s Hammer” will need to follow the teachings of the Church, no matter for their class. Therefore, through following the teachings of Tenacity, Respect, and Compassion, they will not be allowed to behave disrespectful towards other roleplayers, no matter who do they roleplay. Furthermore, I decided to ban or at least limit any supernatural powers one could use, as throughout the years I saw, how often a roleplay was “spoiled” by the use of portals, stealth, the Light, and other magical abilities, that were treated IC like they work in game. With such settings, my proposal would be much different from Disciples of Light or Holy Lightbringers.

The beginning was not an easy one and the only help I have got back then was from Skarain, to whom I will be grateful forever. The recruitment was though, as there were few veteran roleplayers, and if one decided to join he very soon left due to very low activity. For a while we even had the future creator of House of Yore in our ranks, thanks to whom the guild changed its name to “The Ninth Company.” But he had his own ideas, which were not even close to what I had in mind, so I told him it would be better if he started his own. That was also the time when Heldrik started the “King’s Household Cavalry,” another military unit but more elite in nature. Working together we [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], breaking the old fashion to assign one building to a guild and proposing instead an open space with buildings assigned to their function, what would allow each and every military guild to use them. I tried to invite “The Theatre of Blood” there too, as the Alliance Intelligence did not seem to be any active, but Naroma was already a little disappointed with the state of matters in Stormwind, so they did not appear often there.

House of Yore grew in numbers very quickly, soon reaching around 15 active roleplayers. Everyone else envied Zackarus and his ability to gather people around his concept. I personally think it was all due to the fact the Alliance has never had a neutral organisation working within the city walls. Or maybe there was more? I remember that the more people joined Zackarus the less there were with Heldrik. I myself can remember at least one guy who definitely switched guilds.

House of Yore had soon become a target of attacks. From one hand, maybe the inconsistency of their claim to be neutral, at the same try trying to get influence in the Council session caused all this, but I myself tried to help both ICly and OOCly. I have not profited at all from the support I have offered them ICly, meeting with them out of sight.

Around that time, late summer last year, the increasing number of roleplayers started to bring back roleplay on the streets. There started to be quarrels again, and conflicts, which lead to arrests and… The problem of lack of Law RP. I was one of few who lobbied for it during the Council, speaking with people about it [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] and trying to bring it back, as my unit definitely needed it to handle the crimes. But the law was outdated and needed to be renewed. Zackarus started preparations. Once again I offered my help in revision of these laws, as I had many ideas that could be introduced, like a guideline for guards and guard units. But, again, I was never asked for opinion, even though back then I had the biggest guard guild.

I tried to avoid applying for Ministerial post or claiming the representative seat since the moment I resigned as Minister of Trade on 20th of October. Partially because I wanted to check how does it look from “the other side of the room.” It didn't take long for me to discover, that if one is not a Councillor or a Minister his voice does not count at all. And as much as I always appreciated Maelmoor for keeping petitions in check and brief, that always created a certain feeling, that no one cares or cares little. That was the time I started to form the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], to make it possible for petitioners to express their intent, as clearly that was hardly possible during the Council public sessions (those closed too, actually).

Since the moment “The Ninth Company” was granted the guard rights there was no single evening of boredom. I was approached by many roleplayers who always had some matter to discuss at least, as ICly I was not that radical as other guard captains in terms of handling with crimes and criminals. This was the moment Thorvald started to roleplay his [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], a vendetta character who started to murder warlocks of the realm. I picked that plot instantly, as it was clearly a job for guards. Those who know Thorvald know, that roleplaying with him is not an easy one, but I yet needed to find that out myself then. ICly my character was wounded multiple times, and that was due to a misunderstanding: a player that was using anything he could, including magic, etc., had encountered a player, who tries to keep it simple, with no magic, etc. All my attempts to invite more people to it came to naught ([You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]). And again, hours of writing reports trying to keep it all accessible to others went lost.

In late December I was proposed to take part in [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. This time he intended to roleplay a boss character. After first session I had my doubts and was ready to retcon it, due to [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], that would be hard to mend ICly. But, for the sake of roleplay, and knowing there is nothing going on currently in the realm, I agreed. That lead to roleplay that was on the edge of lore, causing troubles but also, creating very interesting outcomes and side plots. After my character was healed, especially, what lead to a very tense relation between Aramal and Vardrek.

On 26th of January Maelmoor was arrested soon after he opened the Council session. I understood that it’s hard to catch Maelmoor online, but arresting him in such a spectacular way caused my doubts towards the Disciples IC. Aramal tried to address the Council, reminding of the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.], but even though he raised his hand first he was not granted the voice. Instead, Centax was allowed to speak. And yet another brilliant performance happened, this time a call to arrest. None of such had ever happened during the Council as long as I was roleplaying on Defias Brotherhood. I was ready to call to dissolve the session. But then Zackarus decided to jump on the Chairman seat and that was too much. I had three reasons to order my men to draw steel: Aramal still was Maelmoor’s vassal, those arrests should not have happened during the Council, and the imposter taking over the table. Valestrion appeared. I called to dissolve the session, as this was the only way to handle the chaos that arouse there. But, Valestrion decided to treat that as an order. And he: [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. Valestrion proved, therefore, that Aramal may have no friend in him. And this links us to the former statement, that if one is not a Councillor one is never treated seriously. If Aramal was a Minister or a Councillor, there would be at least voting. But, he was just a guard captain, so no one should bother.

The hell broke loose after that. We were given thirty seconds to leave the Chamber. We rushed after Maelmoor. Upon finding him I proposed that if he needs help with taking him out, I can do that. But Aramal’s lord told him to wait. So he waited. Yet that evening two of my men decided to disobey mu IC command and OOC plea not to try anything stupid. Luckily, only Helmut noticed it. For the good of both the Ninth and the Regiment we decided to retcon that. There were more serious matters back then.

Aramal waited for the trial. And again, he would missed it as many other trials, because no one ever bothered to notify him – just a guard captain. He was denied to give any testimony. Eveline decided to do it American way – judges are stupid and if not presented with evidence they cannot decide on their own.

Here I must share my first doubt concerning the current state of affairs in Stormwind. Everyone is so surprised that I try to lobby for knightly roleplay, and I do not understand why. Warcraft is closer to this than anything, even more than Lord of the Rings in that matter. So, if you do not understand why Aramal tried to speak to people’s minds by saying that there was no reason to arrest Maelmoor then I will elaborate.

First, Maelmoor is a lord, a captain of guards, an official, and the Chairman of the Council. By being accused of what he was he would have little reasons not to attend the trial. He posed no threat to the safety of the people. He could have been ordered just not to leave Stormwind before the trail. And even if he posed any threat he could be arrested in his house. Therefore, there was absolutely no reason to cast him into dungeon like a typical thug, with no respect towards his position and all that he did to the realm for the last 10 years (both ICly and OOCly). If he decided to escape and leave Stormwind the case is easy – found guilty and banished. This is really that simple.

Secondly, Disciples decided to treat the other “criminal” with much better respect. Melamoria was simply ordered to stay in Northshire in her apartment before the trial. She had not been cast to a dungeon like a typical thug. Looking at this situation one could say, that Melamoria has much higher status than Maelmoor or Disciples had a reason to treat Maelmoor more severely. And hypocrites at the same time, as I've heard this repeated like a mantra: we are all equal in the Light. We, in the Light maybe, but that would apply the moment we shatter of our mortal coils, and not while being alive. Reality is never ideal. The Light, the Three Virtues, equality, justice are just perspectives, I think that this does not to be explained. Of course I admire the devotion which the holy order represents, but then can your characters look in the mirror and say with all honesty: I am clean as a whistle? Some still remember times some of you wore scarlet.

One more thing: Eveline said, that current law did not allow them to make a different verdict. Here I must disappoint each and every one of you who think, that changing the law would change anything – there will never be a perfect law system. Look around how does it work in your IRL countries. The good thing is, that in European courts judges are not stupid and can decide, not matter the evidence. But, if you wish to roleplay it the American way… The law is for the people, not the other way around.
Then, there was the Inquiry. It lasted too long. And why? Only because two gentlemen responsible for it were not able to arrange an IC meeting with the third captain, Centax, even though he logs in almost every evening.

That blocked the Ninth, not allowing us to do anything, and we had a plan to help Minister of Justice with her law update, especially asking for introducing a guideline for guards and guard orders, so such as happened to Maelmoor would not happen again. But again, we couldn't even apply for the representative seat which is rightfully ours OOCly speaking.

So, the magistrate made it so we needed to focus on our own roleplay. One of our members proposed a plot: he would roleplay a Defias thugs who attacks Westbrook, as it is first bastion on the way (I would like to remind here, that Sentinel Hill was raided a month before by “Red Reach Riders”, and would still be lacking people). The plot developed and actually the “Defias Syndicate” was able to propose its “services” to other guilds. That is how "House of Yore" came in contact with them, capturing Ely and locking her in the city barracks temporal arrest. But, as it generally happens, those who arrest tend to treat those arrested like their subscription was suspended, and provided Ely with no roleplay. Ely got bored. Being bored she came up with a plan to escape. She seduced OOCly one of the Ninth, who decided to develop his own plot on this. Another from the Ninth was used for that purpose. And the latter was captured, the former not. More! Minister of Justice has not even accepted the arrest warrants for him! So, again the real criminals run free, while innocent people get punished.

Minister of Defence one more time gave citizens of Stormwind a laugh, proving once again, that the Ninth Company of Stormwind is useless, by hanging the [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]. That brings us to my second doubt: that moment I have finally realised, why people outside the Council table always claimed it’s corrupted. The reason is simple – the Council is manned by players, who no longer have time to roleplay, and have, therefore, no recognition about the state of affairs in the Kingdom. When they log in they jump to too fast conclusions, accusing not those who try to destroy the realm but those who try to protect it.

And so, our Council Representative, Lieutenant James Masters was found guilty of High Treason (sic!) as the only one in last 5 years of the server history. And why? Because the Defence was not ready to bring enough evidence. Because some people decided that made up letters are more important in roleplay that online players willing to testify. Because the trial was announced spontaneously not giving those interested any time to prepare (both ICly and OOCly). And even though I shared that comment through OOC means, that was not enough. High Treason. Banishment from the realm.

Of course, one could say: blame your guild members for it. ICly, maybe, but OOCly? What should I blame them for – providing the Community with roleplay? That verdict could be different, but I was hoping that bringing live evidence will do more than some letters. When Maelmoor was in court my letter was denied to be taken into account, and I really wrote it and signed it with my real characters name, and published it! It is there, in IC letters to the Council, with the date preceding the Council session. So, if I faked that apothecary expertise, would it really make any difference? The “imaginary” mug was there, in the worst case the judge could schedule the second meeting, after the evidence was checked by experts.

To sum up, during this past year many things happened. The Ninth was pretty active, taking part in most of the events. However, from the In Character viewpoint it is clear that no one respects neither its leaders nor its members. High officers are easily accused and sentenced by most serious of crimes. The unit is constantly being suspended its rights as guards, even though the Ninth has never allowed for a prisoner to be left with no water or food or clothes for six days in the dungeon, and has pursued each and every criminal that started wrongdoing in the realm. So, again, looking at this from purely IC perspective, we are all the time punished for being active.

Currently the Ninth has no reasons to stay in Stormwind. The unit is compromised thoroughly; an order of honourable men who follow the tradition of this realm’s bests has been laughed at by the magistrate, its leadership publicly mocked, its representatives accused, loosing any last bit of its status. So, forgive us if we chose to share the faith of other guilds who decided to leave Stormwind as there was little they could do.

From OOC view, I wish my character could get this minimum respect and trust, but it seems four years of consequent character development from zero level means little, and I loose in ranking with those who hopped in roleplaying badass officers. Maybe if I stop wasting my time on creating reports, lore summaries, bothering Ministers with TLDR letters, then maybe in next six years my character will be treated with such respect as he himself treats/treated other leaders, who are there for 10 years now. Or will that be a rabbit chasing a turtle paradox?

by **Dregdo** Mon Apr 18, 2016 4:05 pm

I agree about the Council part, several councilors dont RP any other time than Council meetings or theyr own events(which are very few), also i am doing my best to bring RP to realm (Creating Villians, events, random Rp...). I am constanly offering people that i will create an event line for them and well this time i created one for The Ninth Company as i am its member now but never before my event lines led to something like this.......
Well and as i noticed trials in SW nearly scream : Outcome prepared before dont even try. For example if you take the trial of Maelmoor and Melamoria. This trial was ridiculous....two people punished for saving life of innocent man. Thanks not punishment should be given in that case and i have no words about the yesterdays trial....it was pure bullshit.

This is only my opinion please dont take it personally or take it as aggresion aimed towards you but as Aramal said alot changed on this server and it was not towards good side of the thing.

by **Reyxor/Dlaqev/Lucag** Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:16 pm

My support, this is a good post. Just life in SW, can become boring without these "problems". Give it another go and another and so on. Don't give up.

by **siegmund** Mon Apr 18, 2016 5:29 pm

I'm pretty sure the money thing not everyone laughed it out in that thread, there was some apreciation, though you can't expect much on these forums since you won't get a big sample of responses, but of course trolling and highly critic people are always in abundance no matter what forum you post in.

Ah yes, "those who know Thorvald know" no ovaries are safe.

by **Bareans Silversmith** Mon Apr 18, 2016 8:32 pm

Well, I can't say people approve my rp or what I think, but DB rp is hard...it has a lot of laws, and sometimes it may be not friendly, epically if you made a crime, and I know many people who left to AD, left because of that reason, because sometimes DB rp make you stop rping, stop doing what you love to do.

However...some members of the ninth did things that well shows the guild in a bad name, and their actions must be considered, I know many guilds in the past would have punished their members for it, now I am not going to tell you to do it, because well I am not sure kicking or doing something is the best solution, however there must be something done...

I can tell you that I rp Bareans for 7 years or more and he doesn't get much respect as well, some people even hate my rp style that OOC they ignore me or just dislike me and so on, I got many hate whispers although I tried to explain to them that it is bareans rp, some just don't care.

Anyway I can only suggest you to keep up, to try your best, in the end RP should be like real life, and IRL it is very very hard..so hey, either you stay in DB and get yourself up and start again or well try to keep up as it is
I don't think people should leave stormwind, because must of the rp happens in SW.

by **Allonia_Miral** Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:30 am

Don't know if rp should be like real life. Should be fun in the end, shouldn't it? (though that fun can indeed involve your character having a hard time, of course.)

by **Littlepip** Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:39 am

There is nothing quite like being kicked in the balls as a wake up call, only to check Skype to see a message from Lavian that someones spoken about me on a forum I'm barely on anymore.

I think TLDR would fit in here quite nicely thought I have to admit that I sat down and read through it all except for the "Spoiler.

There is not much to add that Aramal hasn't already said, thought while this is still fresh I'd like to add that being a villain isn't easy on any regards on Defias Brotherhood due to the abundance of "Good Guys" and the lack of villains, radical minded people such as the Red Baron or thugs in general. By being a villain, or perhaps more of a "Bad Guy" I was hoping to create some sort of interest in criminal roleplay again. That at least was the idea with Priest, which was the one that scarred Aramal.

Sadly enough, it didn't turn out that way and instead lead to some more then chaotic ripples through Defias that lead from one thing to another. And I'm sad to see that my efforts to make some interest in criminal roleplay lead to so much Drama(?) out of character.

A sorry spoiler:

Which was never my intent, never has been my intent and (hopefully) never will be my intent.

by **Skarain** Tue Apr 19, 2016 9:43 am

Question about the Council.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't each guild able to apply as Councillor for the Stormwind Council? So while you lacked a Minister seat, as the leader of a guild, would you still not have the right for the Councillor seat?

---
Thoughts about SW Council.
When a governing body akin to Stormwind Council is used in roleplaying, it can lead into problems and situations as this when those in power use their power and those outside of it are powerless to stop it. It can very much leave a bad taste in people mouth.

I view that political gatherings such as the Stormwind Council are necessarily not a bad thing. Abolishing such a practice on the server would also not be possible, not while so many people still support the idea of it.

The Council exist to support and create roleplaying. Whether the organisation does this depend on the era and time we live in. The Council will always exist, but what it does outside of the Council meetings and how does it treat those coming to interact with it do vary.

The council of the current era we live in is not it worst, but neither is it their best. There is always room for improvement. Hopefully the feedback provided by this thread will result into improving the Council.

Also, I do wish to raise up a point or two that people might have forgot.

"The Council have no more power over you than you allow it to have"
Like with all roleplaying, you can not do something to another person without their permission. This includes lording over them. Despite the Council playing a role as a governing body, they have no godly power given to them by the King. All the power they have is given to them by other roleplayers.

There have been times during which Guard Guilds for example have chose to act separately from the Council, due to a lack of IC trust.

During the time, they merely sent one representative to the Council room (not the table) to listen, but they would not take orders from the Council or follow their set of written laws. Sometimes, they would announce something of their own, to bring it to general awareness, but that is as far as their interaction with the Council did go.

This did not diminish their roleplaying a bit. They were still roleplaying to Stormwind, doing their job, their roleplaying, following their own set laws of proper laws.

They were just not following the whistle of the Council.

You can do that.

If the Minister of Justice then wants to spread a certain set of laws, it is they who will have to approach you.

---

"You do not need the Council to generate roleplaying"
While the Council is a great platform to announce things IC, seeing that many people are gathered in there to listen to the meeting, you are not dependant on the Council permission, support, acknowledgement or a minister seat in order to create roleplaying.

I have been roleplaying on this server since July 2011, primarily on the Alliance side. There has been multiple opportunities for me to step in and take a seat at the Council. I have however never done that. I never needed to.

I do not believe that being a part of the Council is a requirement in order to create roleplaying. You can create gatherings, IC and OOC meetings, Events, Masses, Balls, Tournaments, RP-PvP Campaigns and whatnot in order to create roleplaying without any involvement of the Council. So, if the Council is not giving you the kind of reaction that you were hoping for, you are not dependant on them in order to go along with your plan.

Having the Council acknowledgement helps, but your own reputation and how you will approach other players about your ideas matters more than that.

---

About Law RP,
In regarding Maelmoor's arrest, 4 years back when House of Nobles were still a thing (mostly run by Jarric and Braiden), Nobles were allowed to remain in House Arrest until the moment of their trial rather than being thrown into jail like a common thug. Admitted, at that time, the Minister of Justice -was- a Noble (Braiden), so no surprise such a regulation was in place.

---

Thoughts about Law RP,
Also, most of my experiences with Law RP have been that "the law/government is corrupt". It is not always so. I know plenty of good, just trials, but it is not always like that.

With law RP, there is a fine line between realism and respect of the other players character. Usually, verdicts should be discussed/confirmed to be OK OOC with the one about to be found quilty, unless they specifically wish to leave their fate in someone else hands.

Corrupt trials are fine, if it is by permission of the player about to be judged.

_____

Well, here are my random thoughts on the matter. Hopefully they add up into the conversation.

Also, Mallucis, cheers for writing the post of yours. It did provide some great insight to those of us who are not in the heart of the matter. (Plus, I like reading long walls of text).

by **Myriah** Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:23 am

Skarain wrote:Question about the Council.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't each guild able to apply as Councillor for the Stormwind Council? So while you lacked a Minister seat, as the leader of a guild, would you still not have the right for the Councillor seat?).

True, any rp guild can apply icly for a Councillors seat.
A little explanation about the difference between Ministers and Councillors for those that aren't familiar with it.
A Minister is responsible for specific duties fitting the ministry he or she represents. For instance, the Minister of Justice is responsible for the laws, keep track of who the judges are and who people can go to with questions and complaints in the legal department.
A Councillor is a representative of a specific portion of the community, the guilds or however they describe it icly. A Councillors job is to bring their peoples opinion to the table. One representative instead of a whole guild voicing their opinions. This to prevent major chaos at the meetings and give everyone someone icly familiar to talk to about rules and the things that go on. The Councillors are the ones who have a vote in matters that need to be voted upon. Laws for instance or the vote for Ministers etc.
A Minister is not allowed to vote. This means that the actual power is with the people and not with the ones in the Ministry seats. How it all works out icly is up to all rpers. Ministers and Councillors can be biased or corrupt. But they can also be true to their word, hardworking people who occasionally make humaniid mistakes.
This leads to the possibility that there can be multiple people from one guild at the table, though only one is allowed to vote.
All Councillors can have a backup from their guild to be present in their place. And all Ministers can ask anyone they want to be their deputy. The deputies can also be in the meetings.

There is a lot of potential if people use the opportunitiesthat are their.
In case anyone needs an ic talk with any of my chars, a pm through forums will always reach me when I am not found online.so one Councillor always approachable here.

by **Littlepip** Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:28 pm

Is Eveline currently in the Minister of Justice chair or is it still [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]?

by **Naroma** Tue Apr 19, 2016 12:36 pm

Eveline is the current Minister of Justice yes.

by **Mallucis** Tue Apr 19, 2016 1:48 pm

Skarain wrote:Question about the Council.
Correct me if I am wrong, but aren't each guild able to apply as Councillor for the Stormwind Council? So while you lacked a Minister seat, as the leader of a guild, would you still not have the right for the Councillor seat?

I think I said that, sharing the thought that one does not need to be in the Council to generate roleplay, for half a year we have not applied for the Representative seat. The moment [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] I had no rights connected with it. However, bad things started happening, and there were people working on new regulations. I tried to offer my help as a person outside, a "specialist," but no one has ever used my offer. More bad things happened and I knew there is only one way to have some voice in that matter, as people ignore me as "an individual." We wanted to apply for the Representative seat and we were denied.

8th December:

- this shows nicely, how those roleplayers who try to follow the lore (peace treaty after Garosh's dead) do not accept Horde casual raids as IC thing are pushed back from IC events later on.

[You must be registered and logged in to see this link.] - the first request must have happened before that and after 24th of January as that was the closing day for Aramal's recovery from the coma.
Also another example of treating casual Horde raids as IC thing. This time I got attacked by not joining the rest. If I stopped then those with PvP off would claim I am wasting their time. Who should be pleased, then, during a weekly public IC meeting?
There is also a fine moment, when Azapha shows, that some players may be totally corrupted by fel magics and even hold position of a minister, while others like herself are being dragged naked around Stormwind ("Shame! Shame!") just because they had a "living staff."
And my appeal not to ignore common roleplay, which was almost ignored. As well as ignoring the fact the Ninth resides in Westbrook and inviting people there for an event (I wonder what would happen if I invited people for a party in City Hall or Cathedra, without inviting or notifying anyone who roleplays there?).
Also, Charlie and Hutchins left; there was obviously some OOC discussion in the Council channel. From what I know it was due to the fact no Councillor took time to check Charlie's law update proposals. Hutchins just followed, as they were co-working on this.
Heldrik almost resigned himself - after our RP in Westfall, when we were fighting with Red Reach Riders he asked to prepare a written report. [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.].

1st March:

- public mocking. The "trouble" was obviously "House of Yore" and their power play under Zackarus.

8th March:

- another insults. But, it's his job, remember.

As a loyal servant, I wanted to follow the Council, I willingly gave them power over me and my unit, as I wished to be accepted by them. When they decided, that I can no longer be the leader of my guild (sic!) I followed that order, and gave the leadership to Reyxor. I cannot imagine Valestrion, Maelmoor, Heldrik - whoever ever being willing to do it. Bah! I cannot imagine Valestrion or any other veteran roleplayer bearing the insults that were thrown at Aramal throughout the process! What is more! When I told Heldrik to stop - Valestrion backed him up, saying that it is his duty! And that was in front of all Stormwind!!!

I willingly put myself under Minister of Defence (Helmut>Beladon>Heldrik). I believed, that if the Law RP can exist without bigger problems, laws and regulations must be equal for all guard guilds, so, putting Minister of Defence as responsible for keeping it in check was a good thing,a perfect setting. When I applied for the guard rights and then discovered, each guard guild can have their own ways, then I realised, that there is no difference then, no "premium" aspect of having them. Therefore, I lobbied for unified system.

I have no intention in abolishing the Council. However, from purely IC standpoint, all that happened lead to the Ninth being perceived as a bunch of troublemakers, not something I am willing to accept OOC.

Concerning Law RP, I do not blame them for giving the verdict. But, both IC and OOC circumstances could have lead to different outcome. This one was just a drop that broke the camel's back. Again, IC speaking. I think I confessed, I was one of those who wanted the Law RP back.

by **siegmund** Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:31 pm

- this shows nicely, how those roleplayers who try to follow the lore (peace treaty after Garosh's dead) do not accept Horde casual raids as IC thing are pushed back from IC events later on.

I'm sorry but in that case I don't see that from the chat log. Of course it's people's own thing for the "peace" thing if it's full out or not and raids on SW being IC or not (The latter being more controversial but that's a topic on it's own).

Still you can't expect to get invited to a meeting about defending Stormwind lands/patrols when your character dismissed everything (splinter groups and whatever it would be called it doesn't matter) and ended up adding sarcastic remarks.

by **Ixirar** Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:40 pm

I'm at an absolute loss as to what the purpose of this thread is. Anybody?

by **siegmund** Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:28 pm

Sharing is caring?

Well probably what was written in the disclaimer. So what we need now is for those in power to reply here and some popcorn.

by **Reyxor/Dlaqev/Lucag** Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:35 pm

It's nice to have controversies. Brings some more delicious situations. And some more real rp in general. Everyone isn't in rl either best friends why be in a game or pretend to be such. More real rp, that sounds good as Bareans pointed out. Don't hide your real feelings behind your character.

by **Helmut** Wed Apr 20, 2016 7:32 am

As someone who was a vital part inreforming the council to have not only ministers but also Guild Representivs: We should have removed minsterposts alltogether and we were foolish not to do so. I mean, the idea was to make it so the council were to not just have different nobles and lords rule over the RP of the people they had nothing to do with. The council should be for the people, by the people. But we thought that the different seats would still be usedul but really, when I look back att everything, I can see how we could have lived without them.

Now, I am not only pointing fingers at others, I blame myself a lot here too. When Helmut was granted the title of Minister of Defence he was also granted respect, power and new doors and enviorment to RP, and as the power hungry shit that he is he loved it. Power, however, does not only corrupt, it makes you lazy. And yes, just like most politicians, removes you from interactions and common grounds with the common people. I noticed that it did not take very long before the council turned back to what it was.

Well, there was a couple of months where it was good. The table in the councils was packed with people who all was chosen by their guilds to carry that guilds voice into the meetings of the community. It was not nobles and lords meeting, it was the community, and it was beautiful.

However, at the time of Deaenor people left SW for a good while and during this time I lead the shorteat councilmeeting ever (2 seconds BBY!!!). I myself played Draenor and SW was empty. But people soon started to crawl back into the city but it seemed like the RP was dead. With my studies taking up much time I became one of those who just logged in to sit at the counciltable every tuesday. I knew that I had become this, the thing I wanted removed, but I still showed up out of the sense of duty and also the feeling that I might lose the prestige that the Minister of Defence had. I would eventually leave it.
The RP on the server almost reset but more has started to RP again and now the council has turned back into its old form. Just ministers of different noble or knightly titles and no voice of the common RPer. As a last thing I hope that things will change by saying If you do not take time to be a part of the community then you should not speak or decide for the community

by **Charlie Blazesong** Wed Apr 20, 2016 9:38 am

Helmut wrote:We should have removed minsterposts alltogether and we were foolish not to do so.

Just my thoughts Helmut. The council feels clunky as it is right now and I think it would be better if the guilds in and around Stormwind decides the laws and such OOCly aswell as in a "that would make sense." kind of style. Currently there is nothing the council does that couldn't be done better in another style.
Another problem with the council is that it feels more exlusive than it needs to. You shouldn't need a vote on a councilseat unless the legitimacy of an organisation is in question. For example if a cult guild is trying to gain a seat and are under suspicion of such activities.

And Mallucis, a lot of misunderstandings and such was lead to things. I do believe that the not fed for six days part was mostly because people assumed it happened OOCly. People who don't get rp in the cells generally don't ask for it either. So here I say this and I will urge others to do so aswell. If you ever arrest someone. Please shoot them an ooc whisper going along the lines of: "If you want some rp down in the cells please poke me." Because a lot of the time stuff can be done in the cells yes. But also a lot of the time people log out after getting arrested and move on to do OOC stuff. I am on most days and I wish I could rp more than I currently do.

I also believe the IC reasoning for not accepting your physical evidence is that it could of been tampered with due to the fact that it was the ninth who would want to protect their member. You have to understand that that part of evidence was questionable at best.

I would also like to point out that the letter in Maelmoors case if accepted would of been detremental due to the wording of it as it did prove what they were accused of to some extent. If Aramals words would be taken that is. That trial there was also a bit of mixed messages. I feel like there were a lot of hidden retcons due to both being there during the guildmeeting where Melamoria brough the thing up and sitting in ts while a lot of stuff was going on.

I would also like to apologise as I was sitting in TS while the trial was going on which I shouldn't of done especially as I was taking on the role of advisor to Eveline. I believe both Heldrik and Sky pointed this out during it upon which I realised I should probably not of stayed in there as it was unfair on behalf of the people at the trial.
Also pointing out that before to Zackarus going off this was common practise with House of Yore during council meetings.

I think these were my two cents.

At this rate it will turn into a confession thread.

by **Myriah** Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:19 am

Confessions are good, they give insight, understanding and communication. All needed to prevent and sort misunderstandings. It is so often forgotten to have an ooc chat along while rping with people. A mistake I made myself as well on a few occaisions.

by **Mallucis** Wed Apr 20, 2016 10:57 am

Charlie Blazesong wrote:
Helmut wrote:We should have removed minsterposts alltogether and we were foolish not to do so.

Just my thoughts Helmut. The council feels clunky as it is right now and I think it would be better if the guilds in and around Stormwind decides the laws and such OOCly aswell as in a "that would make sense." kind of style. Currently there is nothing the council does that couldn't be done better in another style.
Another problem with the council is that it feels more exlusive than it needs to. You shouldn't need a vote on a councilseat unless the legitimacy of an organisation is in question. For example if a cult guild is trying to gain a seat and are under suspicion of such activities.

I do not think the setting with Ministers is a bad thing - after all each time the Council opens its session everyone knows who is responsible for dealing with certain petition or matter that may arise there. But, and here I agree with both of you, it really should not be that those wielding the titles are no up to date with state of affairs in the city. And it is not a hard thing to repair it either: what would be needed here would be a simple Deputy who does roleplay there, so he or she could always take the Minister on side and quickly present the background, so that a Minister knows.
I do not blame non of them for anything. I am grateful, that they still take part in it, as time goes by, being experienced with dealing things and having the knowledge of the past. But, they should not forget, that half of the public may be seeing them for the first time an be totally unaware of the fact, their doing their job for many years.

And Mallucis, a lot of misunderstandings and such was lead to things. I do believe that the not fed for six days part was mostly because people assumed it happened OOCly. People who don't get rp in the cells generally don't ask for it either. So here I say this and I will urge others to do so aswell. If you ever arrest someone. Please shoot them an ooc whisper going along the lines of: "If you want some rp down in the cells please poke me." Because a lot of the time stuff can be done in the cells yes. But also a lot of the time people log out after getting arrested and move on to do OOC stuff. I am on most days and I wish I could rp more than I currently do.

Of course, this is what I mean. I have arrested couple of players myself, but was doing what I can first to not give them any reason to think they may escape (informing either OOC or through /e about the safety means), that they will be fed (not much, mostly bread and water, but still), and that they have a right for a visitor a day. This is something that most guards remember to do, this "american" phrase that goes just after the arrest "You have a right to remain silent." It just needs to be extended. And I was trying to put a regulation there, as Melnerag had once proposed, so, people would now things like: which cells are magically protected, how many doors/bars are there, how many NPC guards should stay on guard each time, how long should be a shackle, so that they can lay down, are there any beds, how long should a person be in arrest without giving him or her the trial date, etc.

I also believe the IC reasoning for not accepting your physical evidence is that it could of been tampered with due to the fact that it was the ninth who would want to protect their member. You have to understand that that part of evidence was questionable at best.

That's why Aramal questioned Neme at the end. He wanted to prove this way, that guards were not doing here job properly, and that the rule of presumed innocence was abandoned in that case, and there was no investigation going on (week time). Because this is Neme or her men who should do it. And that it why Aramal has said, that the men who tested it is not only entrusted to the Ninth, but not a legaly approved alchemist.

I would also like to point out that the letter in Maelmoors case if accepted would of been detremental due to the wording of it as it did prove what they were accused of to some extent. If Aramals words would be taken that is. That trial there was also a bit of mixed messages. I feel like there were a lot of hidden retcons due to both being there during the guildmeeting where Melamoria brough the thing up and sitting in ts while a lot of stuff was going on.

I am not that sure, as we are stepping on the edge of lore there. If you remember "Harry Potter" the last part, when wizard dies and meets with Dumbledore in a white room? It's just a first example of many movies, that came to my mind. We know that different magical forces have their "realm," like fire elementals have Firelands, nature force has the Emerald Dream, Shadow realm is what we all experience getting Invisible or when we are running to our corpses. A logical conclusion is that there is a realm for the Light to, and would getting there to communicate with a soul be a forced influence?

by **Skarain** Wed Apr 20, 2016 11:28 am

Mallucis wrote:A logical conclusion is that there is a realm for the Light to, and would getting there to communicate with a soul be a forced influence?

Lore-shenanigans:

by **Lady Eveline Williams** Wed Apr 20, 2016 2:39 pm

I'm.. Going to quote a lot of separate bits and pieces that I have experienced differently, my post by no means is an attempt at coming across as factual for I have not been on DB for as long as you have. I have struggled quite a bit, trying to read such a book and I've likely missed quite a bit. The only way I got through your post is by keeping it open on my second monitor, then quoting pieces into a 'post a reply' snippet that I had open. Hopefully, this will mean anything to you or at least show my perspective on it all, but by all accounts, you may have simply experienced it differently.

Around that time, late summer last year, the increasing number of roleplayers started to bring back roleplay on the streets. There started to be quarrels again, and conflicts, which lead to arrests and… The problem of lack of Law RP. I was one of few who lobbied for it during the Council, speaking with people about it OOCly and trying to bring it back, as my unit definitely needed it to handle the crimes. But the law was outdated and needed to be renewed. Zackarus started preparations. Once again I offered my help in revision of these laws, as I had many ideas that could be introduced, like a guideline for guards and guard units. But, again, I was never asked for opinion, even though back then I had the biggest guard guild.

I tried to avoid applying for Ministerial post or claiming the representative seat since the moment I resigned as Minister of Trade on 20th of October. Partially because I wanted to check how does it look from “the other side of the room.” It didn't take long for me to discover, that if one is not a Councillor or a Minister his voice does not count at all. And as much as I always appreciated Maelmoor for keeping petitions in check and brief, that always created a certain feeling, that no one cares or cares little. That was the time I started to form the House of Nobles, to make it possible for petitioners to express their intent, as clearly that was hardly possible during the Council public sessions (those closed too, actually).

Were these suggestions ever written out? I was not a Minister at the time though know Zack was making changes for himself, changes I never saw, bear that in mind. I know he wanted to change the laws to be less vague and have a clear line through it all; A thing I am still working on, a thing you have suggested a few things (Worldly forces, Charlie's laws) for, though not written out (Unless you refer to Charlieblaze's post, which serves as inspiration still, though I disagree to some laws stated in there.). I'd like to say that I've taken these suggestions into account, but I took it as that. -A suggestion-. Not a command, not a fact, not an order. Sometimes, a suggestion is not accepted or taken to those you suggest it to and entirely disregarded, that is why it is an suggestion. If you feel your suggestion was dealt with in a less enthusiastic fashion, then I can see that as well, for I first had to form my own opinion on the new chronicle book and the worldly forces, to then inquire around me for I felt safe by that, to then translate that knowledge ICly. Right now, it continues to serve as inspiration and I am glad to have acquired the chronicle book and the worldly forces page.

. I had three reasons to order my men to draw steel: Aramal still was Maelmoor’s vassal, those arrests should not have happened during the Council, and the imposter taking over the table.

If Aramal was a Minister or a Councillor, there would be at least voting. But, he was just a guard captain, so no one should bother.

I quite disagree, though I understand the chaos of that evening. To me, it escalated the moment you drew steel. As you wrote, you had three reasons for such; I do not question if you drawing steel was a breach of character or anything like that, though I do feel it made tensions even worse, for suddenly someone was prepared to murder for his case. Someone was prepared, to fight his way out the keep, possibly out of Stormwind entirely, with high risk of injury and death for all those involved. Aramal became a threat that moment, which had consequences.

As for Zack sitting down on the chair, that too, aided in escalating things further. Reflecting back, to me it looks as those two events spurred the chaos in both Ministers and guard crews at the time. Zack, however, has vanished and all contact with him has diminished, so I can not give you my thoughts on why he did such. I do not know them.

Aramal waited for the trial. And again, he would missed it as many other trials, because no one ever bothered to notify him – just a guard captain. He was denied to give any testimony. Eveline decided to do it American way – judges are stupid and if not presented with evidence they cannot decide on their own.

Now this is where I raise an eyebrow. Back then, I was not the Minister of Justice; If you were not contacted, then there is nothing I could have done about such, I was not aware of it. This, was my first trial in-character and out of character, I was put on the spot by Charlie and without any knowledge, any experience with these things beforehand (On how trials happened within DefiasBrotherhood, no guidelines, no handlebars to hold onto. I had read the laws of course, though mistakes were still made. See below.), I had to take the longest trial I've been engaged in thus far, an incredibly difficult one.

Were mistakes made? Yes, in fact. I entirely missed the clausule for accidental crimes and regret for said crimes; This was a rule breach based on a technicality, that had been done by accident therefore, Maelmoor & Melamoria could have been let go or have a diminished punishment. Such was an IC and OOC mistake, one I can not revert now but one that also fueled that Eveline had no real IC reason to not vote Maelmoor back in; It fueled Eveline's desire to change the laws, to strive to do good in the city and through such, she became Minister of Justice.

It also streamed me, to streamline the process of how trials are held, how judges are chosen, trained, contacted and overall employed. This, is not an easy task and not one I've been allowed to try and enact for long. I ask for your patience, and with your history, I am aware that may have simply ran out, but realistically, I have not been Minister for that long and mistakes will be made. I still must learn my position while sticking to my character ICly, while carefully enacting things that I feel good for the entire server as a whole when it comes to the laws and trials.

Therefore, there was absolutely no reason to cast him into dungeon like a typical thug, with no respect towards his position and all that he did to the realm for the last 10 years (both ICly and OOCly)

This I agree on, hence why Eveline voted him back in and has not regretted it since. I corrected my mistake through such, you are free to disagree but this is how I see it.

One more thing: Eveline said, that current law did not allow them to make a different verdict. Here I must disappoint each and every one of you who think, that changing the law would change anything – there will never be a perfect law system. Look around how does it work in your IRL countries. The good thing is, that in European courts judges are not stupid and can decide, not matter the evidence. But, if you wish to roleplay it the American way… The law is for the people, not the other way around.

I did say that, that was a mistake. I disagree that changing the laws would not affect anything; I disagree with your assumption we are trying to make them perfect. The laws will never be perfect, they are not meant to be. They are meant to a broad in-character instrument, a tool, to encourage both guard and criminal roleplay; They are meant to encourage players catching criminals and enacting out punishments, to criminals committing crimes in the first place, and even avoiding said punishments. It needs to have loopholes, it needs to have rooms for mistakes, and above all, I feel they need to be simple so that they may be understood, and be known through a few glances and readings over, instead of having to go through a book.

Judges have the power to decide, have the power to give smaller punishments, to give larger ones even; They can dismiss crimes entirely under accidental or showing regret. If that has not happened before the 3-4 months, or to be more precise, the (roughly a) month I've been a Minister of Justice I've been on DB, then this is not a thing I take responsibility for.

That blocked the Ninth, not allowing us to do anything, and we had a plan to help Minister of Justice with her law update, especially asking for introducing a guideline for guards and guard orders, so such as happened to Maelmoor would not happen again. But again, we couldn't even apply for the representative seat which is rightfully ours OOCly speaking.

Could you clarify the "OOCly speaking" part? I recall you not having been allowed to apply due to the current IC ongoings, but it comes across to me that you feel you deserve the position for your history and length on the DB server, which is not something I can agree with. I may simply be misunderstanding this.

(I would like to remind here, that Sentinel Hill was raided a month before by “Red Reach Riders”, and would still be lacking people).

Indeed, the raids that have happened have not been met with a lot of enthusiasm OOCly. I am unsure what it is, but I am simply too swarmed to look into it myself. Perhaps it is simply another communication issue between Alliance/Horde in regards to shared events; There will always be a struggle with these things I feel due to not being able to talk to the other faction directly unless through Btag or external places, furthermore the btag group conversation system was removed, which put a dent in group-cross-faction roleplay.

But, as it generally happens, those who arrest tend to treat those arrested like their subscription was suspended, and provided Ely with no roleplay.

This, I strongly disagree with but I can see why you feel it to be this way. The fact is, those guards that arrest people have events and lives of their own; They can not possibly interact with the prisoner every day for multiple hours, or even once per day; Timezones with online hours, guild events, server events, a lot of things have to be taken into account and those clash more often then not. I know this is a problem, but you come across as if you are pretending there to be an easy fix, which I strongly disagree with.

In short. "It isn't that simple."

I've been trying to work with people to set up a new concept that would allow magical users to have 'jail time' without being in jail. That way, they could still interact yet be limited in what they would be able to do ICly but this is still a concept under development. Drumnir was meant to assist me with such as the Minister of Magic, though currently he has no subscription and interactions have diminished as a result. We have noticed his absence as well within Yore, needing to request other people to do his weekly event. This isn't just a bummer for the council or those around it.

Minister of Justice has not even accepted the arrest warrants for him! So, again the real criminals run free, while innocent people get punished.

Your arrest warrant was not accepted due to your suspension of guard rights which happened on the same day, I've been meaning to write to you about this. I saw them, but it was one of the things on a gigantic list that piled up. I apologize for not responding sooner about this. I wanted to talk to you about it but as I mentioned before, real life interfered. (And if you want to blame me for having one, be my guest. This remains a game, as serious as I take my position as Minister, the game, is not my life.)

And so, our Council Representative, Lieutenant James Masters was found guilty of High Treason (sic!) as the only one in last 5 years of the server history. And why? Because the Defence was not ready to bring enough evidence. Because some people decided that made up letters are more important in roleplay that online players willing to testify.

These NPC's were the ones Neme was informed about, by Ely. Ely used NPC's to have the keys handed over and be presented to James, to simply walk out on a whim with nobody questioning it; As such, these same NPC's were interrogated for they didn't just simply vanish after that event. Did you truly expect they would? If you come up with NPC's that fine, but you know very well that it will allow others to use the same NPC's. Ely gave Neme all the information she needed out of character about these NPC's to form a proper testimony on.

The testimonies, were not the damning evidence. They proved James Masters to be there; What screwed James Masters over, is you taking the evidence, setting your own apothecary on it which outright enforced the idea that it could have been tampered with. -If- you had taken your evidence, to any of the guard orders, if you had involved anyone else to confirm the mug had been drugged and that James had indeed, done it unwillingly, I don't think anyone would have doubted it if Maelmoor had ruled it forced influence and an accidental crime.

The fault of James Masters lies with his defense, your IC arguments and I'm sorry if that comes across as harsh. Just as with Maelmoor, I felt outright depressed to see a good roleplayer be judged on a crime that should not have been a thing, but the IC evidence, arguments, trial all led to it reaching this verdict. I took no pleasure in James Masters his banishment, I've offered my help, my ideas for him to wear a disguise and come back into the city and I've even made it very clear to him he can and should still OOCly use the area; Nobody expects him to flee from roleplay. He can even RP in Stormwind lands, just don't be caught by a guard and if you see one, just run.

This was never meant to halt his roleplay or that of the Ninth, and I am really saddened you have taken it in a perspective that damns those that did the trial in a fair and IC fitting manner. Sorry Aramal, but I believe you were responsible for his banishment more so then anyone else. You failed to prove he had been forcefully influenced, by ruining your biggest piece of evidence, the key piece to everything in this trial, you chose to hold with you instead of writing even a single in-character post on the DB forums (In case you couldn't log in to bring it in ICly) that you had approached a guard order with this piece of evidence.

Because the trial was announced spontaneously not giving those interested any time to prepare (both ICly and OOCly). And even though I shared that comment through OOC means, that was not enough. High Treason. Banishment from the realm.

Neme had attempted to set the trial up several times, I've even been asked by Maelmoor long before Friday when it happened if I had objections to him being the judge in this case. This was over battlenet so sadly I have no log of the event. Upon hearing that failed due to time conflicts and real life issues, and being told by Neme herself, that there was an OOC pressure happening because of the World Campaign, because of the trial taking too long, I stepped in and began organizing it. In the last weekend, I've send out six PM's to all my judges, James and Neme included in regards to this trial and it was discussed, -with- James Masters, that the trial was going to be on Sunday before Neme went out of the country for a week.

James Masters, himself, even commented that it was fine and he'd rather have it be done and over with. If he, did not communicate this to you, as your defense, then a problem lies there. The only thing not specified, was the time, for I was not able to talk to Maelmoor directly and we had to guess when he was able to login, or any of my judges for that matter.

However, I could have PMed you as well had it been more clear to me that you were actually doing his defense. I'll make it a mandatory question for the guards to inquire who is leading the person's defense, so that they can communicate everything to that person, as well as allowing us to do so. (Us being the guard orders, me as Minister.)

in the worst case the judge could schedule the second meeting, after the evidence was checked by experts.

Due to Neme having been pressured, a thing I have no reason to not believe her on, the decision was made to do it before Monday and it was finalized. Since we are all reflecting, I'd like to ask you to reflect on how you may have pressured her and in what manner, for I've spoken to her several times to being told there was an OOC rush and that OOC problems were forming, due to the trial taking a while. She didn't want the trial to be a mess, High Treason being an incredibly difficult charge to deal with IC and OOC. Again, I stepped in for I was told the trial was desired to be over with before having to wait another week for Neme.

The unit is constantly being suspended its rights as guards, even though the Ninth has never allowed for a prisoner to be left with no water or food or clothes for six days in the dungeon,

This I disagree with and you know it. It makes zero sense for this to not have happened, and it didn't, as you have been told by Neme (at least once). By all knowledge I possess is that he was informed IC and OOCly, just like anyone else who gets arrested.

You can not expect a guard to be there every single day on an IC basis, just as we do not expect the prisoner to sit in his cell on an IC basis every day. As I mentioned before, that is just not feasible to act out and therefore NPC's exist and act, the same NPC's that were used to break Ely out of prison, the same NPC's whose evidence you refuse to accept, the same NPC that held onto your key piece of evidence and had researched it.

but it seems four years of consequent character development from zero level means little,

I just want to reiterate that what I have seen from Aramal, which has not been four years, but 3-4 months at most, has been enjoyable. I like him as a character, I dread what happened to him in regards to his face and everything else, but it became evident to me that Aramal likes doing things his own way IC which does not work during a trial.

Mistakes were made, I fully admit to such, but I also believe they were made from both sides.

For those who have read through all of this, this has been my experience and my opinions on the entire matter. Thank you for bearing with such a long post.

by **Naroma** Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:12 pm

To try and draw some focus to the OOC issue rather than focus on things that need to remain IC only;

Skarain wrote:"You do not need the Council to generate roleplaying"
While the Council is a great platform to announce things IC, seeing that many people are gathered in there to listen to the meeting, you are not dependant on the Council permission, support, acknowledgement or a minister seat in order to create roleplaying.

While this is of course 100% true, if one was to disregard the Council and its rules/laws in its entirety you essentially begin to form blocks with the rest of the community. When points you disagree on reach a certain point, a barrier begins to grow.

If you want to be a guard guild, but don't go via the Council, who will acknowledge it IC? Who will defend themselves simply with the fact being the Council didn't grant the rights?

If you speak up about an event, seeking permission maybe just to promote some more RP from it, what happens if permission is denied? Do you simply abandon your concept, or do it anyway, when there is a good chance all hell will break loose as you are acting after being denied permission. There is no guilty party in these scenarios, but a need for mutual respect of play styles. Where there may be conflict between an individual players RP ideology and the Council's as a whole, providing the conflict isn't going to be harmfully character breaking for both parties, we need to all respect others choices. We all -choose- to RP and we are all on the same side of the fence.

As a community the barriers created by disagreeing with a large group, or acting differently/doing things your own way, need to be broken down and both sides to create work arounds and use the scenarios to create RP. Not to use the fact someone hasn't gone via the Council as a 'go-to' come back, or for the individual circumventing the Council to avoid playing ignorant to their rules. Just some middle ground.

I can see valid points in basically every post made, but essentially the core issue lies in IC decisions being made by a governing body that some of us only interact with every Tuesday evening. Some decision making and thought around all conflicts can create simply more RP and less time trying to discuss the RP OOC. Whenever/wherever there is a decision being made on behalf of someone elses character, their own say is always the final word, and that is not something that is impossible to work around. Mutual respect.

Reference to 'the Council' essentially also means others who may choose to follow their guidance to the letter.

by **siegmund** Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:28 pm

If you want to be a guard guild, but don't go via the Council, who will acknowledge it IC?

The problem is these "guard rights" weren't always a thing. Guard guilds were guard guilds and council had nothing on them besides people sometimes working alongside as Skarain pointed out already.

I remember people not really carring too much for every crime being detailed and written down by guard guilds in the way the council and minister put it. It still doesn't really matter as long as guard RPers do their job right (That's another topic that has been around - Like keeping prisoners happy, punishments and so on).

Probably the main problem with "Guard rights" is that guilds that in spirit aren't really guard guilds want to act as guards so people started this hype of "guard rights" when the main guard guilds died down. Of course the idea of making guard RP when there is none was with good intention but I think it's honestly gone a bit overboard.

For example House of yore or rather a faction in it has "guard rights" granted by the council. But honestly I don't really see them (Order of oak or whatever it is) as guards but rather militia helping keep the city safe. It doesn't help though in cases like this one that they are dressed all the same so you can't really tell if that specific order of theirs apart from the rest or when they are on the job being "guards" or not. I don't think it is a bad thing for guilds to help keep the city safe even if their main theme isn't Guard/military guild/something guild, but just IMO people should wear a suitable uniform if not at least a tabard if they are going to "act" as Stormwind guards as in specifically guarding Stormwind from criminals. But i supose the council is still stuck on whenever Arcane is illegal or not (Or kidnaping for that matter) and have to vote on it, but I better not get ahead of myself.

The second thing is military guilds. SW Regiment and Shields have been both guard guilds and military, maybe the first more then the latter since that was their main theme. But it kind of is strange when you're a military guild but then want to guard Stormwind for whatever reason it may be IC or OOC. Military usually have a better role in guarding against Horde and bigger threats rather then common criminals. It's just confusing being military but want to do a whole other job well unless someone instated martial law. But it is something diffrent then a run of the mill guard guild so either make it some form of militia or something while staying in the city they want to "guard" rather then making them something they are not.

Far as a guard guild from scratch, yes that will always be a problem I mean there has been established guard guilds, who didn't need no council permision ever far as I know, still a new one sprouting up would have truble that is sure but there are plenty of people out there willing to help such guilds as long as they don't go about being all wacky.

Overall though I see more point for these guard things being their own group then the council having power over them. But thats just how it is if you go to the council to get power the council will control that power and yes a lot of the comunity shows up for the council and listens and some are fanatically loyal but a lot of people AREN'T.

Just speak out if you have a issue and no I don't mean make more threads like these (since they pop up every now and then anyway - issues vary though), speak to people OOCly and talk to each other more and not just in a council circle overall the comunity needs to talk to each other more then wait for truble to brew up until you can post a wall of text.

And anway there are two sides to a wall and I can tell you there are so, so many people who don't really follow the council in the sense of obeying it. It's just that people can't get their shit together and talk it out if they have a problem or can't bother changing or improving something (making events and RP and so on and on). Too many people are mindless drones who go to the council to watch people talk boring politics or drama happen and then complain about the council in their own inner circles. Everyone does, don't try to hide it. But yes there are certain people who are stuborn and don't want some things to change since they like power, but most are just clueless people that want to improve things just the opinion never reaches a wide audience.

by **Naroma** Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:41 pm

I wasn't fully aware of the rights being a newer concept quite so clearly. And I can see where you're coming from. My own input is simply to point out we can all just get on with things and try to avoid the conflicts. I know its challenging, but there are loads of us still here, and we should be removing barriers and not creating them.

Thanks for highlighting examples past and present for clarity. Being thrown in here from the Venture Co. when we merged does create a lack of insight into past events haha.

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