Altering lore, when is it right, when is it wrong?

Defias Brotherhood is a realm that has a lot of institutions that are directly co-joined with the lore/compliment it/contact it/influence it therefore much minor and major alterations have occurred in the past and have occurred to this day. Practically every roleplayer has altered or contributed to the altering of lore, perhaps besides a few specific people. Therefore the question that arises in relation to lore is this:

Is it acceptable to modify lore for your roleplay? In which scenarios is it acceptable to modify the lore for your roleplay? What makes this modification acceptable?

Is it the conviction that does lore alteration requires or is it an OOC mass-agreement that allows the tweak to be appropriate?

Two examples that spring to mind are these:

Past: Kingdom of Arathor/Stromgarde for a certain period of time roleplayed that Stromgarde was 'rebuilt' and 'repopulated' [This is as far as I know and I am open to correction]. This was accepted by some, rejected by others.

Present: Dun Modr has been occupied by an Alliance garrison during the 'Damnation's Call' campaign. Same concept as above, a modification in the standing lore without Blizzard's update.

Discuss?

It's wrong when you're doing it just to spite people you don't like )))))

The ooc is strong in this thread.

I made my peace with the majority of KoS a long time ago after bashing them for it for ages, don't see how it's relevant.

Dun Modr came up as a recent example therefore it's worth discussing. I'd imagine there would be a lot of OOC in this thread if it's an OOC discussion (?)

Krogon - have a glass of water.

Also, conducting questionable roleplay and not being able to validate it only invalidates it so by the glorious motto 'question everything'.

Seeing as Twilights Hammer as a cult is defeated, the content from Cataclysm can be disregarded or altered with minor energy and within the confines of lore, compared to a Scourge-invasion of Khaz Modan which isn't within the confines of lore, seeing as the Scourge never officially went into Khaz Modan before, unlike the Twilights Hammer did in the past.

Mine was a minor alteration that doesn't affect anything major. Besides, Dun Modr didn't get "occupied" during the campaign, we started with that RP BEFORE our departure from TTH several weeks ago, we just merely finished off what we started. So you are wrong yet again. Now quit trolling the forums, you are beginning to annoy the moderators.

"Does it go against the main plotlines of Blizzard at this instance"
"Is it done to piss people off"
"Does it affect everyone"

I'd say those thee questions.
Clear going against blizzard would be attacking Horde part of Voljins rebellion during well, This whole mess of Garrosh. (As Alliance) Or part of the rebellion attacking the alliance.
Doing something to piss something off ... well no good example but would be obvious I'd supposed.
Does it affect everyone. Does your supposed role change how a place works for everyone? Say, going on a server wide decition on that Orgrimmar being destroyed.

Cid.

What makes it valid though, I mean, at the core foundation, you're still altering lore that Blizzard laid down [which is the supposed guide line and principle everybody refers too]?

Because it's reasonable and realistic? If it was why did Blizzard not update it?

The Scourge invasion of Khaz Modan was used as IC propaganda, the invasion didn't leave one small township that was a fictional location in Khaz Modan and had no over-all impact on lore.

I remember when you began that RP and I questioned it then as well [didn't get a response there either]. I am going by Vaell/Eira's post in the rumor mill that it is occupied.

I can't be 'wrong' about an opinion as nothing has been laid down as fact in this thread. I don't entirely care if you perceive a discussion you don't like as trolling in order to disregard it/not respond to it.

I can wholeheartedly agree with your assertions there Muz, can't contest anything.

Why does it really matter if I am honest, it's a nice place and it's a strategically sound location right next to the bridge. Fits perfectly with the Alliances desire to make sure the horde do not push into the wetlands. It's hardly in the same league as claiming relation to the Throne of a lost kingdom, we're just squatting in a nice spot. The little houses and the barricade are quite neat and it's by far one of my more favored Campaign spots.

If it was why did Blizzard not update it?

Becouse they don't have time for every single thing to do in the game. It's common they don't update a ton of stuff that could be updated.

Cerik Ironforge wrote:
Because it's reasonable and realistic? If it was why did Blizzard not update it?

The same reason they haven't updated Outland or Northrend.
The same reason the world stayed the same until Cataclysm. Changing those things are expensive and takes time. (And are obviously not apprichiated enough).

To be honest though Cerik. You did stage some RP in that self same village during some Cult of the Damned Rp where the cultists attacked the same village which had guards and also civillians, to which the ironforge military came to attack in return. So. I think you have your own answer there?

Bakar wrote:To be honest though Cerik. You did stage some RP in that self same village during some Cult of the Damned Rp where the cultists attacked the same village which had guards and also civillians, to which the ironforge military came to attack in return. So. I think you have your own answer there?

Please re-read the thread. I wouldn't be so blindly hypocritical either - we used Dun Modr to represent a different location so it wouldn't tamper with the lore.

As for above, Dun Modr is merely an example and it's the principle in the modification of lore itself.

The most important sentiment seems to be with how much conviction you can modify the lore.

Muzjhath wrote:"Does it go against the main plotlines of Blizzard at this instance"
"Is it done to piss people off"
"Does it affect everyone"

I'd say those thee questions.
Clear going against blizzard would be attacking Horde part of Voljins rebellion during well, This whole mess of Garrosh. (As Alliance) Or part of the rebellion attacking the alliance.
Doing something to piss something off ... well no good example but would be obvious I'd supposed.
Does it affect everyone. Does your supposed role change how a place works for everyone? Say, going on a server wide decition on that Orgrimmar being destroyed.

Blizzard has no plots or plans for Dun Modr in the near future, the Twilights Hammer gets wiped out after the death of Deathwing (and the Twilights Hammer in Dun modr gets wiped out after a plotline anyway, it isn't phased however). So nope, it doesn't go AGAINST the main plotlines of Blizzard at this instance, rather the opposite.

This is done to create more RP in an otherwise rather empty area RP-wise together with the Stonehearth and Thunderwing clans, whom both are based and have reason to be in Hillsbrad/AV and Kirthaven/Twin Peaks, Dun Modr is close to Arathi and it makes sense for us to aid our Arathorian friends (AB) when we're not struggling diplomatically among the clans. So to answer the question, it is not done to piss people off, quite the contrary, it is done to promote RP together with others.

It doesn't affect anyone, seeing as questers who pass by Dun Modr still have plenty of mobs to kill for their quests while we can RP with ease since the mobs are of so low level (and seeing as we RP them as Blackforge NPCs we mostly tend to ignore them anyway if they try to attack).

Scourge on the other hand... is still active if not much so, seeing as they still got operations going in the Plaguelands and Northrend (but not outside those regions). They are however guarded from all exits by 3(!) factions that wish to contain the Scourge.

Undead pig:

The only Scourge outside the Plaguelands now are the pigmen in RFD/K, and they certainly have no reason to go to EK to plague it. So the whole plotline of Scourge in Khaz Modan falls upon its own impossibility, no matter fictional towns or not. The Scourge is such a heavy lore-bound object and organisation, that it is just silly to go outside the confinements of lore to spread it outside the Plaguelands. THAT goes against Blizzards guidelines more than a recapture of Dun Modr do, fictional town or not.

Thus you are wrong, Cerik. Now give up to try and convince others that you are right, because you aren't. I made events that had minor effect on lore, compared to Scourge-invasions which have to be concidered a major effect on lore. Also, you said it yourself ingame that it had spread to where we were fighting, which happened to be Dun Algaz as well, I still got the screenie of that, so it wasn't confined to "one small township" as you claim here on this forum. So I can claim that you are wrong and a hypocrite, and prove it as well. Now begone and quit trolling, you cannot affect the RP we do as a community anyway.

EDIT: Thanks Beladon, we try our best to be good hosts.

Personally I think it's a question if you want to be accepted by the community or not.

We all pay money each month for this game, and we've probably spent a lot of money by now. I think this entitles us to RP whatever the heck we want. If it will be "accepted" by the community or not well, that's another question. But if a group of people seperated from the large community wants to RP that Illidan is alive and well and has a wife and babies.. Well, they pay for the game so they can do whatever they want. Would I join in on the RP? Probably not, but I wouldn't really care if they RP it or not either.

Cerik, you jumped straight to this instead of doing your research.

Cataclysm is over so we can consider all cataclysm based quests completed. You do a quest to clean out Dun Modr and then kill the local Twilight Hammer leader. The zone is only populated for levellers. It's like you making a thread about people saying the Lich King is dead with the argument "I can still kill him though..."

/applaud

Well said, Vaell. Vaell said.  

I dont know why you are even debating this, it is just an ooc Mother Epitossa political attack on the enemies of the soviet republic of the senate. Dont take it seriously, it isnt a serious RP question, there is nothing to be learned here other than what new lengh of idiocy will eph go to to try and bully the server into his ways. Dont debate, seriously trolling is more valuable here, it is what this thread deserves, trolling, rejection and condemnation.

Seeing that the Scourge topic got mentioned afew times here I though I'd rise up and stand by its side, seeing as I were the one leading it on the Scourge side.

The whole Scourge invasion thing was meant from our point of view atleast to provide RP for those that wanted and for our self of course. While the Scourge is heavily beaten and being kept in check by various of factions, the first attack was done by the cult of the damned, wish at least from my view have a lot of possibilities to move about this world as the please, seeing they can infiltrate societies and whatnot. And after that our Death knighs from The Frozen covenant used the risen dead from that made up town to continue our assault around the land.

I at least tried to avoid changing the lore in anyway and do all in my power to keep the lore intact while still provide enjoyable RP for everyone it can be hard sometimes, but at least our Scourge were beaten back eventually and it all were restored to the way it was, minus a village (unless anyone would want to rebuild that made up village)

My reason to post this is to defend Scourge RP as I think when people read what was spoken about them, more people will look down on that kind of RP and further reduce the chances for anyone to RP that, which in turn reduces the overall RP possibilities around, I support wholeheartedly people that want to take bold steps to provide RP. For me a faction isn't "UnRPable" just because the expansion is over (not saying that anyone here said so) because anyone can RP "survivors" of that said faction that tries to return it to glory and such, like what the Frozen covenant is trying to do.

As to the topic at hand! I think it's alright to use that village, and its a shame that we can't get an update on every single thing, but then again WoW is rather big and updating every little thing would be an enormous undertaking, so we'll have to make do what we got and try to make some kind of RP out of it while trying to stay true to the lore as best we can, but sometimes it might need to be bent a bit in order to provide enjoyable RP that can be remembered in everyone's mind for years to come. We all exist on this server and we all try to enjoy what WoW have to offer, I would like to see people supporting others in RP rather than standing against each other, but that's just my personal view and it might be wild dreams, but one can at least hope!

I thank you for reading all of this I hope it made sense if not, then I apologize for taking your time with useless nonsense. Enjoy the rest of your day!

Cid wrote:Blizzard has no plots or plans for Dun Modr in the near future, the Twilights Hammer gets wiped out after the death of Deathwing (and the Twilights Hammer in Dun modr gets wiped out after a plotline anyway, it isn't phased however). So nope, it doesn't go AGAINST the main plotlines of Blizzard at this instance, rather the opposite.

Source regarding Blizzard's plans? I think Blizzard know what plans they have or don't have and taking an assumption regarding the matter would only undermine your own course of action.

Cid wrote:(and the Twilights Hammer in Dun modr gets wiped out after a plotline anyway,

The one that's conclusive is this one here: http://wowpedia.org/Quest:The_Battle_of_Thandol_Span

Further reading about those who occupy/dominate Dun Modr:

http://wowpedia.org/Balgaras_the_Foul

What is clear is this:

Anvilmar sends you in to kill some of the Twilight Hammer [perhaps all?]
You then engage in combat with the leader and the risen puppets he has who vanish into purple smoke [on the Span, not inside Dun Modr].

Cid wrote:This is done to create more RP in an otherwise rather empty area RP-wise together with the Stonehearth and Thunderwing clans, whom both are based and have reason to be in Hillsbrad/AV and Kirthaven/Twin Peaks, Dun Modr is close to Arathi and it makes sense for us to aid our Arathorian friends (AB) when we're not struggling diplomatically among the clans. So to answer the question, it is not done to piss people off, quite the contrary, it is done to promote RP together with others.

It doesn't affect anyone, seeing as questers who pass by Dun Modr still have plenty of mobs to kill for their quests while we can RP with ease since the mobs are of so low level (and seeing as we RP them as Blackforge NPCs we mostly tend to ignore them anyway if they try to attack).

I'm not against the creation of roleplay itself, the thread is to discuss what makes lore modifications appropriate and acceptable, using two examples as a broader base [those examples were picked up from mostly being top of my head/in front of me].

Army of the Damned/Frozen Covenant has never represented 'the' Scourge but 'some' of the Scourge. The Scourge invasion reached wherever the roleplayers on the day decided for it to each, I wouldn't know, I was working. If Dun Algaz was reached I'd say Althalos/Zalon/Siaer/whomever else was involved probably used it as another nameless area in the Northern Wetlands, obscure and irrelevant, that's how we roll.

Cid wrote:So I can claim that you are wrong and a hypocrite, and prove it as well. Now begone and quit trolling, you cannot affect the RP we do as a community anyway.

Take a deep breath and have a glass of water. A perspective can't be 'wrong' because it's just that, a perspective. Everybody has their own right and wrong and their own perspective. I've not said anything factually incorrect or set in stone, feel free to directly quote me if I have.

Disregarding posts that you disagree with as 'trolling' is poor behaviour for one who places themselves on a pedestal of morality. Surely you're not going to try to curtail my right to expressing my opinion?

I don't RP to affect the community, I RP plotlines that promote my characters, and my guilds. Whatever happens IC, happens IC.

Cathee wrote:Personally I think it's a question if you want to be accepted by the community or not.

We all pay money each month for this game, and we've probably spent a lot of money by now. I think this entitles us to RP whatever the heck we want. If it will be "accepted" by the community or not well, that's another question. But if a group of people seperated from the large community wants to RP that Illidan is alive and well and has a wife and babies.. Well, they pay for the game so they can do whatever they want. Would I join in on the RP? Probably not, but I wouldn't really care if they RP it or not either.

I suppose that's fair enough as well - but at the same time if you publicly advertise that's questionable you're bound to be brought up on it. That's the entire point of a forum [unless it was IC only, that would be awesome!]

Beladon wrote:Why does it really matter if I am honest, it's a nice place and it's a strategically sound location right next to the bridge. Fits perfectly with the Alliances desire to make sure the horde do not push into the wetlands. It's hardly in the same league as claiming relation to the Throne of a lost kingdom, we're just squatting in a nice spot. The little houses and the barricade are quite neat and it's by far one of my more favored Campaign spots.

'Question Everything' - Euripides. It's worth discussing things.

C

Vaell wrote:erik, you jumped straight to this instead of doing your research.

Cataclysm is over so we can consider all cataclysm based quests completed. You do a quest to clean out Dun Modr and then kill the local Twilight Hammer leader. The zone is only populated for levellers. It's like you making a thread about people saying the Lich King is dead with the argument "I can still kill him though..."

It was one example, and I've no problem saying it was the wrong example to use, the principle and topic of the discussion remains the same. As seen above, the common agreement of people is what matters.

Though that would bring me to the point of whether the agreement of the community would over-rule what the actual lore said's?

Lexgrad wrote:I dont know why you are even debating this, it is just an ooc Mother Epitossa political attack on the enemies of the soviet republic of the senate. Dont take it seriously, it isnt a serious RP question, there is nothing to be learned here other than what new lengh of idiocy will eph go to to try and bully the server into his ways. Dont debate, seriously trolling is more valuable here, it is what this thread deserves, trolling, rejection and condemnation.

Glass of water might help you as well. However all who go against the Senate will be subject to proscription [bounties on those who go against the Senate, of their families and close relations]. A policy adopted by Sulla, perhaps you know him?

Zalon wrote:Seeing that the Scourge topic got mentioned afew times here I though I'd rise up and stand by its side, seeing as I were the one leading it on the Scourge side.

The whole Scourge invasion thing was meant from our point of view atleast to provide RP for those that wanted and for our self of course. While the Scourge is heavily beaten and being kept in check by various of factions, the first attack was done by the cult of the damned, wish at least from my view have a lot of possibilities to move about this world as the please, seeing they can infiltrate societies and whatnot. And after that our Death knighs from The Frozen covenant used the risen dead from that made up town to continue our assault around the land.

I at least tried to avoid changing the lore in anyway and do all in my power to keep the lore intact while still provide enjoyable RP for everyone it can be hard sometimes, but at least our Scourge were beaten back eventually and it all were restored to the way it was, minus a village (unless anyone would want to rebuild that made up village)

My reason to post this is to defend Scourge RP as I think when people read what was spoken about them, more people will look down on that kind of RP and further reduce the chances for anyone to RP that, which in turn reduces the overall RP possibilities around, I support wholeheartedly people that want to take bold steps to provide RP. For me a faction isn't "UnRPable" just because the expansion is over (not saying that anyone here said so) because anyone can RP "survivors" of that said faction that tries to return it to glory and such, like what the Frozen covenant is trying to do.

As to the topic at hand! I think it's alright to use that village, and its a shame that we can't get an update on every single thing, but then again WoW is rather big and updating every little thing would be an enormous undertaking, so we'll have to make do what we got and try to make some kind of RP out of it while trying to stay true to the lore as best we can, but sometimes it might need to be bent a bit in order to provide enjoyable RP that can be remembered in everyone's mind for years to come. We all exist on this server and we all try to enjoy what WoW have to offer, I would like to see people supporting others in RP rather than standing against each other, but that's just my personal view and it might be wild dreams, but one can at least hope!

I thank you for reading all of this I hope it made sense if not, then I apologize for taking your time with useless nonsense. Enjoy the rest of your day!

You've pretty much nailed our groups philosophy. Influencing the lore in any major way has always been a 'no-no' for the guild/group/community and was always avoided on the large scale. Anything that happened, happened in obscure irrelevant locations.

But it seems the answer essentially is community agreement, as that will be the final stepping stone to any roleplaying concept, lore validity is only of the important pillars that plays an influential role in the community agreeing!

What, is rome this years russia now Eph, you get sadder and sadder. We have Anti already for roma fun and S.P.Q.R. shits and giggles, is this an attempt to legitimize yourself by looking closer to him or something? But as my words were both true and wise I would suggest taking heed of them people.

I dont know why you are even debating this, it is just an ooc Mother Epitossa political attack on the enemies of the soviet republic of the senate. Dont take it seriously, it isnt a serious RP question, there is nothing to be learned here other than what new lengh of idiocy will eph go to to try and bully the server into his ways. Dont debate, seriously trolling is more valuable here, it is what this thread deserves, trolling, rejection and condemnation.

Then again I am a traitor appantly to the Senate and people of Mother Ephitossa to wit I can only reply with these words...

Yet Ephitos says I was ambitious, and Epitos is an honourable man.

You are adorable.

Also Antistia would consider comparison to me a slur, we have a race war you see.

As long as those changes make sense* and the community acknowledges you, you can do practically everything. For example, there's not a standing Troll empire in WoW right now, but who would tell the Second Gurubashi Empire they have no right to exist after all the time and efforts its members put in it, providing good role-play for years? And the same goes for mostly every other guild and organization we've created if you think about it.

* I know, what makes sense for some does not for others, but let's meet halfway

Lexgrad wrote:What, is rome this years russia now Eph, you get sadder and sadder.  We have Anti already for roma fun and S.P.Q.R. shits and giggles, is this an attempt to legitimize yourself by looking closer to him or something?  But as my words were both true and wise I would suggest taking heed of them people.

I dont know why you are even debating this, it is just an ooc Mother Epitossa political attack on the enemies of the soviet republic of the senate. Dont take it seriously, it isnt a serious RP question, there is nothing to be learned here other than what new lengh of idiocy will eph go to to try and bully the server into his ways. Dont debate, seriously trolling is more valuable here, it is what this thread deserves, trolling, rejection and condemnation.

Then again I am a traitor appantly to the Senate and people of Mother Ephitossa to wit I can only reply with these words...

Yet Ephitos says I was ambitious, and Epitos is an honourable man.  

Why are you quoting yourself lexgrad?


Let the Rulers of Ironforge do their thing without constantly needing to be pesks about it shall we?

I just think its curious that the two biggest lore-manipulations are being ignored in this thread, and instead its a bickering of using locations or not because there's quests there.

the council and the senate are still the two biggest lore modifcations on our server, defacto speaking for NPCS and deciding what is okay and not okay there.

And there is a small consensus to accept that, because generally speaking it brings more RP than not.