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Druids: A disscusion about lore

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Post by Exigua Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:58 pm

In Drustais thread about magic a discussion about druids quickly arose. To not derail that thread further, I now create this one.

I was too slow summarizing, read the next post Wink


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Post by Dréfurion Wed Aug 08, 2012 1:59 pm

Yay! We were on the subject of: Troll Druids, the Loa, the Spirit Realm and Emerald Dream. Underneath the history of our discussion:

Exigua wrote:
Drefurion wrote:
Exigua wrote:Since it's clear that Druids use spirits, at least partly, I wonder what the difference is with the Spirit Realm? It is something that we have discussed lately in our guild, and it interests me quite a bit.

It's particularly, if I recall the quest correctly, that troll druids (darkspear quest) draw upon the power of many loa to get their power. But they are still considered to be druids by the Cenarion Circle, while Loa are supposedly of shadow and of the Spirit Realm. I have a theory myself, but I'll hold it back for now.

The diffrence between the Spirit Realm and what exactly? o.o

The Emerald Dream.

erwtenpeller wrote:
Exigua wrote:It's particularly, if I recall the quest correctly, that troll druids (darkspear quest) draw upon the power of many loa to get their power. But they are still considered to be druids by the Cenarion Circle.
That would make most sense with known lore as far as I'm concerned... However I hope there is another explanation. Hopefully mine Wink

The circle lets them in because they are so precious, and the big druids feel bad for them. "D'aww look at that colorful little guy totally being a bear and stuff! Can we keep it?"
Exigua wrote:
erwtenpeller wrote:...I was kind of joking. Mostly.

It's kind of how Goblins get to be shamans; instead of befriending and respecting elemental spirits, they barter with them and force their will on them. This is of course a gross generalization. It is perfectly feasible there's "proper" troll druids and goblin shamans out there.

Yes, ofcourse... But how does the loa druids work, as that seem to be the official explanation of the lore behind them, that's my question. To me, it looks as if it doesn't add up. Loa is of the Spirit Realm, which is about shadows, while Classical druids are of the Emerald Dream, which is about nature. Yet the Cenarion Circle druids accept the Loa druids like brothers and sisters, why?

Drefurion wrote:I can't really give you a quick and easy answer as to what the diffrence is, they are however, diffrent.

Rolled a druid to quickly see what the Troll druid lore is. Darkspear Tribe Druids have a deep connection with the Emerald Dream and all of nature, like all other druids, the Loa Gonk taught them. With other Loa (reluctantly) allowing the druids to use their forms.

Trolls druids actually seemed to have joined the Cenarion Circle as a backup plan, should the Loa not want to lend them their aid anymore. Perhaps meaning to get in contact with the ancient spirits of the Circle?

... Personally I believe the diffrence between a Loa and an Ancient are somewhat vague. Especialy because alot of diffrent things can be called a Loa. To me it would just seem reasonable some of the Loa are beings 'of the Emerald Dream' (perhaps of the Spirit Realm at the same time, no reason that's impossible).

I actually want to know what you're hinting at, so we can dicuss it.. But perhaps we should make our own thread for that?

erwtenpeller wrote:One could even theorize the element dream and the spirit realm to be the same plane of existence, seen through different cultural interpretations.

Something that is already common in WoW lore. Many cultures having a different interpretation of the light and where it's coming from, etc.

I'm just talking out of my ass here though. I have no idea if any of that is "canon" or whatever.

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Post by Exigua Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:28 pm

I'm not sure about the Emerald Dream and the Spirit realm. They could very well be the same thing, called differently by different cultures. The more I think of it however, the more certain I get that they are not, or if they were, they would be vastly different locations. My reasoning is that while I feel the Dream is wild, even vicious at times, it's never cruel, and never seem to contain corruption or death. It is natural, The Spirit Realm on the other hand, have many traits for being not only vicious, but often cruel and often use corruption or death as tools.

My idea about them, since we can't just differentiate with spirits, as classical druids deal with them to, is that the Emerald Dream is like a reflection of the Prescent, while the Spirit Realm is of the past. Both are similar, but deal with different things; the Dream mainly with life and preservation, while the Spirit Realm is mainly death and corruption.

This is a pretty crude explanation, that I'm not completely happy with how it's explained, but I really like the general feel of it; you dream of the present, while you revere the past.
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Post by Dréfurion Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:40 pm

I am fairly sure they are completely diffrent things too, and I don't really necesarilly agree with your explenation of the both.

To get back to Troll Druids, I think that "Loa" as a term is not a classification of a specific kind of being. A troll can "transcent" in to being a Loa. The term seems more... cultural.. than a proper classification of a seperate group of natural beings. Loa seem far more selfish than Ancients, or ancient spirits that the Night Elfs revere, but other than that some of them seem very much alike.

Possibly (some) Loa can enter the Emerald Dream, and wish alongside Ysera the preservation of nature, while at the same time the Ancients could enter the Spirit Realm if they wished?

I am not really sure, but if that's the case there would be less reason for the Circle to shun the trolls (although, likely, their intergration wasn't met with approval of everyone of the Cenarion Circle.)

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Post by Exigua Wed Aug 08, 2012 2:45 pm

You do have a point about Loa there, there could be a point in that the loose explanation troll have put together entities from different realms. I'd think it would be more likely that some of the troll loa really are within the Emerald Dream, and other would be in the Spirit Realm, then that they could cross over.

Where the line must be drawn is somewhat open to debate. It feels wrong saying all selfless spirits are from the Emerald Dream, while the selfish or shady ones are from the Spirit Realm. I think it would be pretty clear that the loa from the Shadow Pantheon would be from the Spirit Realm however, rather then from the Dream.
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Post by Shaelyssa Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:39 pm

Glad you brought this up on the forum ... I remember discussing this in the gchat over in SGE for quite a long while :p

We know for sure that there is one loa, Gonk, that resides within the Emerald Dream and in one of the quest, it's implied that at least all the (main) primal loa do too.

Loa seem far more selfish than Ancients, or ancient spirits that the Night Elfs revere, but other than that some of them seem very much alike.

Ya this is true, the Ancients aren't benevolent beings, not all of them anyways ... I'd go so far as to say that Aessina is the only real benevolent one of the lot. I mean look at Aviana, she's a bitch and Omen and Aggaman? Each Ancient has its own personality and traits. (But remember, Elune herself expects her disciples to perform rituals for her!!!)

My reasoning is that while I feel the Dream is wild, even vicious at times, it's never cruel, and never seem to contain corruption or death. It is natural, The Spirit Realm on the other hand, have many traits for being not only vicious, but often cruel and often use corruption or death as tools.

Let's not forget that the Nightmare was a huge part of the Emerald Dream for a very long time, and it still is in fact! It was just beaten into submission, it wasn't completely wiped out Very Happy cough

Personally, I think the loa are ancients, animal spirits like Goldrinn and the rest of them. They have physical manifestations, and they can be trapped and enslaved (just like Tortolla and Hakkar). And considering that the trolls and night elves share a very long history (night elves having even descended from trolls), it's very very VERY possible that they worship the same thing, just under different names.

One could even theorize the element dream and the spirit realm to be the same plane of existence, seen through different cultural interpretations.

Something that is already common in WoW lore. Many cultures having a different interpretation of the light and where it's coming from, etc.

I'm just talking out of my ass here though. I have no idea if any of that is "canon" or whatever.

Totally agree with this too. Heck, I wouldn't put it past trolls to worship Elune either, they'd just call her something else Very Happy
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Post by Shaelyssa Wed Aug 08, 2012 3:41 pm

Also, for a druid to be able to learn how to shapeshift into x form, they have to be granted the boon of that specific animal spirit (at least in vanilla wow anyways). Same thing with trolls and their priests of x loa! And for a long time, night elf druids were devoted to just one animal totem, the same way troll priests were devoted to just one loa
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Post by Dréfurion Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:14 pm

I disagree that the Spirit Realm and the Emerald Dream are the same thing, they appear to be far too diffrent, and described to diffrently, even when we go in to them in WoW, they are far diffrently.

It's true about the Night Elf and Troll entwined history, so some Loa are probably the same as Ancients.. Some Loa are completely diffrent, they wouldn't be Ancients and not from the Emerald Dream..

I also don't think something is "from the Emerald Dream", alot of these beings would predate the Dream and so they would rather have embraced it (or have been embraced by it).. And I think that's where you draw the line, whether a Loa is "for or against (or indiffent to)" the Dream.


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Post by Ixirar Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:23 pm

While this article doesn't deal with the troll druids, it still has some take on how druid (night elf and tauren) powers work atleast. Worth a read, in any case.

wow.joystiq.com/2010/05/01/know-your-lore-tfh-edition-elune-is-a-naaru
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Post by Zhakiri Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:35 pm

I've long theorized that the majority of Azeroth's deities and Faiths are the same thing under different names, I can't source now (on my phone) but I'm 100% sure I've read somewhere that the Troll Druids in Moonglade are even calling the Wisps and Ancients Loa, the other Druids try to correct them but aren't listened too.

The Light and the Shadow are in all Faith under different guises, Elune, Earthmother and so forth. Under those cosmological forces are the gods and demigods, I'm convinced they're the same, loa and Ancient, in different forms for different cultures.

As for the Spirit Realm and the Emerald Dream...The Dream -is- a Spirit Realm but it's not -the- Spirit Realm. I do think all are mostly interconnected though, a Shadow Realm could easily be within the Nightmare and any heavenly afterlife could be within the Emerald Dream. If Azeroth has portals to the Dream, who is to say that the Dream doesn't have portals elsewhere?
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Post by Dréfurion Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:38 pm

Thurold/Nygarth wrote:I've long theorized that the majority of Azeroth's deities and Faiths are the same thing under different names, I can't source now (on my phone) but I'm 100% sure I've read somewhere that the Troll Druids in Moonglade are even calling the Wisps and Ancients Loa, the other Druids try to correct them but aren't listened too.

The Light and the Shadow are in all Faith under different guises, Elune, Earthmother and so forth. Under those cosmological forces are the gods and demigods, I'm convinced they're the same, loa and Ancient, in different forms for different cultures.

As for the Spirit Realm and the Emerald Dream...The Dream -is- a Spirit Realm but it's not -the- Spirit Realm. I do think all are mostly interconnected though, a Shadow Realm could easily be within the Nightmare and any heavenly afterlife could be within the Emerald Dream. If Azeroth has portals to the Dream, who is to say that the Dream doesn't have portals elsewhere?

The Nightmare is something diffrent, to put in wrongful terms, a curse of Xavius, it's contained within a region of the Emerald Dream now. It probably doesn't contain a realm, and the Emerald Dream and Spirit Realm are probably rather seperate.

I agree with Loa and Ancients fall in the same class of things, or classes as there's probably diffrence between let's say Elune and Ursol.

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Post by Zhakiri Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:46 pm

I agree with the Nightmare likely being exclusive, but I don't agree that the Dream and Spirit Realms are entirely separate being that the Dream is just a Spirit Realm itself.

There is likely connections too and fro from the majority of all Realms, whether naturally or unnaturally forged.

Quite they're on different levels, but yeah, I'd say they all Loa, Ancient, Demigod and God are one in the same. I'd say the Titans and Old Gods are the only completely separate entities but they're not 'of' Azeroth; and off topic anyway.
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Post by Exigua Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:49 pm

Predate the Dream? Unfortunately i don't have a source on this, but I have always thought that the Dream was created around the same time as Azeroth itself. So yes, other thing not from Azeroth could have embraced or been embraced by it, but I don't think that would be valid for Loa and the likes we discuss here.

The Nightmare have had a large impact on the Dream, but I think it shows more why not all loa are of the dream. Someone or something brought a thing that aren't natural to the dream, something that act to corrupt the dream; a shadow. The dream acts against the unnatural thing and a infection, the nightmare, is created.

That article is an interesting read for sure. Maybe I should read it again to refresh my memory.
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Post by Exigua Wed Aug 08, 2012 4:56 pm

As for Elune, I don't think she is neither Ancient nor spirit. She is a Naaru and the ones revering her does not have to do with the Dream through her at least. With that, I am pretty sure the "Dream" and all things related originated with Azeroth, while the Light predated it. The forces that the Dream contain may have been there before, but the actual entities with spirits and Loa didn't exist.
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Post by Dréfurion Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:03 pm

Exigua wrote:Predate the Dream? Unfortunately i don't have a source on this, but I have always thought that the Dream was created around the same time as Azeroth itself. So yes, other thing not from Azeroth could have embraced or been embraced by it, but I don't think that would be valid for Loa and the likes we discuss here.

The Nightmare have had a large impact on the Dream, but I think it shows more why not all loa are of the dream. Someone or something brought a thing that aren't natural to the dream, something that act to corrupt the dream; a shadow. The dream acts against the unnatural thing and a infection, the nightmare, is created.

That article is an interesting read for sure. Maybe I should read it again to refresh my memory.

That is only true if the Titans actually made rather than reshaped Azeroth, which they didn't. The Dream was the blueprint of Azeroth, it even has layers of unfinished projects (that you can't normally get to). Alot of beings, trolls included, were around when the Titans did their thing.

The Nightmare has one cause, Xavius, it's touched upon in Stormrage. Xavius being the first Satyr etc. I don't think the Nightmare really relates to the Loa/Ancients other than it caused alot of Ancients/Loa grief.

Elune is more likely an Ancient/Loa who is incredibly powerful due to how much worshippers she has. That or she's something completely else, a true deity, most like an Old God, but not evil and Light-alligened perhaps. If Blizzard make her to be a Naaru I will quit Night Elf RP.

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Post by Zhakiri Wed Aug 08, 2012 5:07 pm

I concur, I'd relate the Ancients and Loa with eachother and Elune and 'Light' Gods with the Naaru, basically deities of Azerothian Nature are one in the same and deities of cosmological Holy Light are one in the same.
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Post by Odgan / Keag Wed Aug 08, 2012 6:18 pm

I have played a Troll Druid myself for a while as well, where I studied the lore behind the Troll Druids a lot. But I advise to look at http://www.wowpedia.org/Zen%27tabra and then the dialogue at the bottom of the page.

From Zen'tabra you can direct that Gonk (the Raptor), being one of the most ancient among the Loa, forced the other Primal Loa's into aiding the Darkspears Trolls with learning the path of Druidism. The Troll Druids seem to have learned this in the Emerald Dream from the Primal Loa and their servants, which means that the Primal Loa somehow have access to the Emerald Dream, or either reside there themselves. That's just speculation through.

One thing is certain, the Loa dislike the fact that the Troll Druids worship them all at once, instead of a Troll just focusing on one patron Loa, as is custom. As is indicated from Zen'tabra and other lore sources.

The Cat form the Druids would get from Bethekk the Panther.
The Bat form from Hir'eek the Bat.
The Bear form from Nalorakk the Bear.
Moonkin.. Yeah...

Anyhow, besides the Primal Loa, there are many more Loa the Trolls worship, which where once living trolls, who had great power or did great deeds, not certainly sure about that. But two examples of once living Troll loa are Bwonsamdi ( http://www.wowpedia.org/Bwonsamdi ) and a better example: Zanza ( http://www.wowpedia.org/Zanza ). Who actually tells of how he once was a very powerfull troll.

I have no idea of the relation between the Loa and Ancients, but I don't see them as the same thing, the Troll Loa are selfish and require big amounts of worship, and can grant great boons, but also great punishments. It's also stated somewhere that the Trolls believe that the spirits/Loa are jealous of the living Trolls, that's why they require their sacrifices 'a brief taste' as I see it. Some of the Loa also having specific tasks, or.. 'fields' they rule over. Bwonsamdi for example watching over the Darkspear dead etc. And there are way more Loa then we know, besides the famous Primal Loa.

But I am sure that on a day Blizzard will shed more light on this, or at least hope so.
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Post by Arkil Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:16 pm

I think pretty much anything involving the Emerald Dream is shrouded in some sort of mystery because Blizzard just havn't written much on the subject. I remember when I first looked into the Drudic lore that some people felt that Druids could access the Dream as they sleep, as all usual beings would sleep; only remaining semi-concious within the dream world. I think it's considered that the dream has existed since the beginning of time and runs totally parallel with 'the waking world' which druids and those attuned with it can cross through to with a reasonable amount of ease. The spirit world as I see it, is a totally different plane which acts separately from the dream and the waking world but rather as the means for the ancients to exist and from there manifest into 'reality'. Elune I believe to just be a deity who exists within the sprit world/twisting nether and manifests into the moon (or some crazy humanoid form when she feels like having intercourse with a giant stag) within 'the waking world'.

That's how i've always understood it. I can't say I know anything about Troll Druidism and my knowledge of Gilnean Druidism is that it's pretty much a warped form of 'RL Druidism'?
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Post by Dréfurion Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:27 pm

The Emerald Dream is described in the Stormrage book (much of it's plot is really not touched upon in WoW, because y'know, Blizzard sucks), it has locations and mentions of it's denizens, and again it's a Titan-made thing, so it only has existed since their arrival upon Azeroth.

The Dream is also not truly parellel: It is the unsundered Azeroth, it has life that is exstinct on Azeroth and species that didn't evolve on Azeroth.

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Post by Grufftoof Wed Aug 08, 2012 8:34 pm

I've always thought along the lines of "one deity, many names". The "hero with a thousand faces" thing. It's the way I see a lot of RL myth, religion and fable. And the same in WoW. Especially the Loa/Ancients/"Gods".

As for Elune... dunno. I can see Blizz going for Naaru. Though that wouldn't please a lot of people. But I wonder if she could be something different. A face of Azeroth itself (one of "Mother Azeroth's" guises) or even an Old God somehow...

The Dream though, I don't equate to the Spirit Realm. Or rather I do not think they are the same. Though they may cross over/into each other (when the "veil is weak" so to speak). Or have denizens who slumber in one, but exist in multiple realms.

And I'd always thought The Dream was "The Perfect Model". An unsullied Azeroth devoid of humanoid/truly sentient life. And created by or modelled for the Titans. Dunno about a link though that proves where I pulled that from. So might be from my bum.
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Post by Arkil Wed Aug 08, 2012 9:40 pm

Yeah Dref, that's what I meant. I realise the dream is as it was when the Titans created it; so there is no maelstrom inside the dream, and just the single continent of Kalimdor.


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Post by Exigua Wed Aug 08, 2012 11:39 pm

Reading that conversation, it seems to indicate that loa is spirits of nature, and that working with those spirits is what makes a druid.

"But since we not be able ta draw upon de power o' de loa wit Zalazane in power, Gonk be showin' us a new way ta connect wit ALL de spirits o' nature, ta work WIT de spirits, not just be servin' a single loa at a time. "

Wanted to say something more, but nothing more came to me. D:
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