Killing of a Character

grufftoof wrote:You don't have to accept being called a tool. I could have been worse. That was, believe me, a measured response.

You may not see it, but this was not even remotely personal until you told me to find more experience in MY LIFE. That makes it more personal. As my life, obviously, is my own. My personal life. Crazy beans that.

As for re-reading what I type, or have typed. I have. I re-read before I post too. And I can certainly hold my hand up when I mutter incoherent nonsense (I have before) or am wrong or unclear.

But don't begin to think you can tell me I will "come to the same conclusion". I won't.

The analogy was poor. The bar. The Cult do not own Deathknell. Not one person here owns a single bit of the world we play in.

We can try to act with civility and good manners to anyone, it breeds the same. Demanding death or expecting RP to be a certain way - "because we say so" - can and will remain as something I think is not only silly, but harmful to good RP, a good game, and enjoyment.

See that bolded part? The analogy in that example is rather sound acctually, if you care to view it as such. You do not seem to be interested in that, so you do not reply with a counter argument. The bar is Deathknell. Where in that analogy does it say that the gangsters own the bar? The analogy points to the gangsters being the guild cult of shadow, if we are still using the original example.

Right now, my conclussion of this whole thread is that people have different views on what RP is. Role Playing.. Been doing that alot and most of my friends who I talk about RP with do share the same view on what RP is. The only reason we are able to get away with doing silly things in WoW that are WAY outside of Blizz lore (or hinted at by blizz) is because we are on the internet. Damn, if these kind of things would have happened on a LARP, you would be so out of there. We are in the same world at all times. Sure, we can follow different story lines and all that but we can't ignore the fact that if we are at the same locations we will be interacting with eachother in some form. Remember, a big part of RP is to interact, otherwise we could all just be sitting on some forum writing short stories or novels (nothing against you who do write such here, love to read them. ). The example here I belive is also about a person who tried to contact the cult, hence entering themselves into the cults story. So please, stick to the discussion and don't wander off saying nothing relevant at all to it. And this goes to all of you. Please do not derail a proper discussion.

Taking my quote (bolded too, exciting). I admit, that bit isn't too clear. But that was a summation, after more than one post. The earlier posts, you read those? is there truly a lack of clarity as to what I mean there? When I actually posted and stated why I think the analogy didn't work? And what my feelings are on the "call for execution" (so to speak) and the situation as described by the OP.

I'm sure the Cult are the Gangsters in the analogy, yes (though I am only assuming, because I did not create the original analogy...). They're also the bouncer making the warning (or the OP is). And they're trying to control this place (bar) because it's "theirs" (the inference from the first post, and indeed the "whole point" of this?).

It's not theirs, though is it? Yet this IS relevant to the topic. But then, I did try to point that out elsewhere...

As for derailing. Aye, me and Monrena "miss-communicated" or "miss-interpretated" things said to/by one another. I accept that's a derail. Talking about the situation at hand, and the way it's described is not a derail. "Let's talk about breasts." That's a derail.

I still think you're wrong Monrena. But disagreement is a type of agreement.

Anyway...

Interaction IS good. But your version of immersion isn't someone elses. Not one person here has the right to decided another's RP or view of Azeroth. We can guide, advise, help. We can enjoy, play friend/enemies/whatever.

But we can't own or control. And asking isn't the same as telling (see my first post).

imho - we all pay the same subs and thus all have access to the same parts of the game.

Should I want to go to Deathknell on a character other than forsaken, well, I will. The Cult, or anyone else that lays claim to an area, can continue to do so and just disregard me being there - treat me as an NPC. I'll be immersed in my rp as they will be in theirs.

Same goes for another other zone that a guild lays claim to, it is unreasonable to create a big fuss when someone breaks the lore for an area that you yourself have decided, and not Blizzard.

Unless I missed the post above telling me where to look to find out that Deathknell is sacred?

And no, no matter what someone does you cannot insist that their character dies. You don't like their rp, then just don't rp with them. Simples! As the meercats say.

It is true you cannot truly own an area, of course. But for example, the Cult does tend to be in Deathknell a lot, hereby 'claiming' in Character that they own the place. People that are not welcome in there will be chased out by the Cult. If they don't agree on this IC, let them handle it in that way as well. Bring up a force to kick us out once, sure! Fun, more rp. But don't go wandering in there while the Cult is RPing thinking you can do your own stuff because they don't 'own' the place. If a player then just starts to ignore all emotes you make at him/her while he/she's in deathknell, yes, bad rp...
And Arli, that discussion you already have had with the Cults officers multiple times in private and that was for as far as I know solved. So no need to bring that up again, I think.

Edit: this is what Wowpedia mentions about the Cult:
Forsaken who once followed the tenets of the Holy Light often alter their philosophy upon their transformation. Former priests of the Holy Light lost their faith when they became undead. Lost and hurt, these priests founded a new religion based on a self-centered version of their former faith. Dubbed the Forgotten Shadow, this philosophy centers around self-empowerment and a desire to balance life with death. Many of the virtues and principles of the Holy Light exist within the Forgotten Shadow, but are twisted to an egocentric view. While small, the Cult of Forgotten Shadow grows in popularity, especially among Sylvanas’ dark rangers. The cult claims Deathknell as its home, as well as a section of the warrior sector in the Undercity, but it is not yet organized enough to claim much control over anything.
Link: http://www.wowpedia.org/Cult_of_Forgotten_Shadow

Daeyna/Sykela wrote:And Arli, that discussion you already have had with the Cults officers multiple times in private and that was for as far as I know solved. So no need to bring that up again, I think.

I wasn't bring it up here at all, just joining in the discussion with my two cents

But if you use the "they rp a lot there so can lay claim" argument then all your Brill gy belongs to us since we seem to use it an awful lot more than you do

And edit to the above edit - yes claims it as it's home but does not own it nor does this make it sacred ground.

grufftoof wrote:Taking my quote (bolded too, exciting). I admit, that bit isn't too clear. But that was a summation, after more than one post. The earlier posts, you read those? is there truly a lack of clarity as to what I mean there? When I actually posted and stated why I think the analogy didn't work? And what my feelings are on the "call for execution" (so to speak) and the situation as described by the OP.

I'm sure the Cult are the Gangsters in the analogy, yes (though I am only assuming, because I did not create the original analogy...). They're also the bouncer making the warning (or the OP is). And they're trying to control this place (bar) because it's "theirs" (the inference from the first post, and indeed the "whole point" of this?).

It's not theirs, though is it? Yet this IS relevant to the topic. But then, I did try to point that out elsewhere...

As for derailing. Aye, me and Monrena "miss-communicated" or "miss-interpretated" things said to/by one another. I accept that's a derail. Talking about the situation at hand, and the way it's described is not a derail. "Let's talk about breasts." That's a derail.

I still think you're wrong Monrena. But disagreement is a type of agreement.

Anyway...

Interaction IS good. But your version of immersion isn't someone elses. Not one person here has the right to decided another's RP or view of Azeroth. We can guide, advise, help. We can enjoy, play friend/enemies/whatever.

But we can't own or control. And asking isn't the same as telling (see my first post).

Ah yes. I think I can see what you are pointing at, but I'm not too sure about if you understand what the problem in original example is. And this is due to the thing you yourself are constantly saying, that we can't own, we can't force, we can't decide another persons view on Azeroth. But what we can decide upon is how our own guild/group see the world of Azeroth. Then being clear on how we see upon things. If someone at that point chooses to interact with us, then they have made their choice of accepting our view on Azeroth, to some degree atleast. They have acknowledge the groups existence and this goes for all guilds/groups in our realm, since the cult is not the only one with lore created from bits hinted in quests and other sources. Then there may come some disagreement of course, but the issue can still be saved so there won't be any trouble, if both parties are prepared to bend their ways just a tad to make things smooth for the characters involved, without anything getting blown out of proportion. It is a difficult balance to find, very much so and a work in progress in most guilds I hope. I have seen some instances where people has been given fair warning, given time to bend, while I/we have already been bending our response in their favor, but still they go on in the same manner.

Original topic, to kill a character or not. My view is no, not unless the other person is prepared to do so and that we work this out together. That is the only way to go about any thing in all our RP, this we agree upon I suspect. The thing that become a problem though is if any of the parties is not willing to bend their view on Azeroth in favor of letting someone off the hook. I know I've done so on several occasions allready, but it is getting rather tiresome to be taken advantage of due to this. But that is the bane of trying to be as diplomatic as possible with as many players as possible.
Sorry if I'm not making full sense here, since I have not slept since work yet.

Reynar / Raviran wrote:This situation is complicated indeed. A good example of this would be something like this:

A foreigner has found a bar / restaurant he would like to visit. Just outside the bar is the bouncer who gives a word of advice.

"I wouldn't go in there if I were you, there's some dangerous people inside..." *Gestures towards the group of gangsters near the counter*



But still the man, ignorantly, insists on entering, and is allowed to go in with a sigh. The man starts mocking the gangsters, (Note, willingly) knowing that they might be a dangerous bunch. The gangsters draw their weapons and surround him, giving him a final warning. The man ignores it and is shot to death by the gangsters. The end!

Now here are the points of the story. The man was really unlucky that the certain group of gangsters were inside the bar that night, making it really annoying for the man, because then he would have to find another place.

But there are other places where he could have gone nearby, avoiding the gangsters easily and enjoying his peaceful evening.

On the other hand, he could have gone inside and just minded his own business, been cool. (Refering that the "lol-RP'r" could have just ignored the cult and continued his own RP, staying absolutely away from the cult's RP) The bar is not theirs, but their presence in the place might bring harm to others, if they're not careful.

Or the man could have just politely asked the gangsters to let him sit down and drink with them. If they accept, then it's fun for everyone. But of course they might refuse, (well they ARE gangsters!) but atleast now he knows he is not wanted. And continuing to bother them and interrupt whatever it is they are doing, will surely bear consequences.

(One way of solving this would have been settling it OOCly. By being calm and civil on your side. But you can't always be sure that the other side is willing to do the same. Thus causing problems which have to be solved ICly and not QQing anymore OOC. Which naturally, creates more drama.

Atleast that is the overall of how I saw this scenario.

There is also the option that the criminals beat up the annoying person, and t hen toss him out of the bar.

or lock him up... or make fun of him..

or summon a demon.. that tries to tear his dick off..

or laugh it off, as if the dude doesn't mean anything

or fill in your own scenario.

killing isn't the only option available to you, to resolve the situation that doesn't break character.

considering if you do a "killshot" without consent you are inviting a poweremote.

if you don't want that power emote, don't do the killshot.

I get this a LOT sadly. My elf has a very short fuse and has a history of IC assassinations. (all approved of by the targets of course, providing Morinth managed to get them in a position to murder them)

I get people being so disrespectful, rude, and frankly asking for it. We had one person walk onto the ship we were RPing on back before Cata, where we ICly docked in Ratchet. Seeing as lorewise, the city is supposed to be bustling!

Anyway, someone walks on, there's 3 Tauren in heavy arming guarding the passageway into the ships interior, plus a warlock with a summoned Felguard. She insults Morinth, walks through the Felguard and past the guards, and proceeds to nose about the inside of the ship. During an IC interview to join us. Then walked back out, and there was nothing we could do to even lay a finger on her. /dodge, /sidles away, /ignore the rest of emotes.

I will always give the person the choice of living or dying, even in that situation. But it angers me that people think they're so invulnerable and can do whatever the hell they want without consequences. Oh, and it was a small blood elf. Three Tauren, a warlock and a Felguard, plus an angry Morinth. You do the maths.

I think we are missing a point here.

If a living goes to Forsaken lands alone and mouths off then who is gonna notice they dont come back. It isnt a Question of forced killing, the RPer should know that going there without any expectation to accept death is really bad RP.

This whole thread seems to be a debate over a Bad bit of RP.

No it's not, really. I think all guilds have had multiple situations where this would apply to, so have we. And we're now just having a discussion about what others think about the killing of Characters and how they handle such occasions that it goes a bit wrong.
It's about the overall of this subject, not only about us Forsaken, though we use ourselves as examples ofc

well I operate on the principal that all my toons can be killed and that if people want to kill her.. they can try.. even with monrena.. and as i know this I make it clear in monnys wants feelings and actions that she does not want to die so she avoids situations that can lead to this result.. it makes for far more thrilling rp when shit does get dangiourous and makes one even closer to the toon as you know there is that chance..

Lexgrad wrote:I think we are missing a point here.

If a living goes to Forsaken lands alone and mouths off then who is gonna notice they dont come back. It isnt a Question of forced killing, the RPer should know that going there without any expectation to accept death is really bad RP.

This whole thread seems to be a debate over a Bad bit of RP.

so if a random dude is walking behind you and decides to chop off Jarrics head, you're just going to die? since he's walking behind you with a big motherfucking sword and you don't have eyes in your back. because you know you shouldn't be walking the stormwind canals without the expectation of the accept death? or are you going to meta-game looking over your shoulder when you oocly see someone walking behind you with a drawn sword and thus godmoting?

I think nobody is missing your point, its just that your point is stupid. There are always other options then death, if the player doesn't want it. and doing a killshot unannounced unnoticed, unprovoked, will be replied with an emote that could be considered a poweremote/godemote. and there's always OOC whispering, talking, deciding on a more preferable outcome that doesn't break both characters.

But this is all assuming you actually want to rp with each-other. if its clear that the otherside doesn't roleplay on the same level as you do, there's always the option to just you know... ignore and move on, instead of complaining they don't play by my rules they bad rpers! (why do you assume you're not the bad rper? cause nobody does think that of themselves we're all trying to have fun in our own way.)

Amaryl wrote:so if a random dude is walking behind you and decides to chop off Jarrics head, you're just going to die? since he's walking behind you with a big motherfucking sword and you don't have eyes in your back.

*spots a penny on the floor* ohh! *bends down to pick up the penny as the sword swishes over his head*


Problem solved!!

this way you can not only miss abeheading but also hear the sword strike pass giving you time to leg it/draw your own sword/want..etc

Monrena wrote:

Amaryl wrote:so if a random dude is walking behind you and decides to chop off Jarrics head, you're just going to die? since he's walking behind you with a big motherfucking sword and you don't have eyes in your back.

*spots a penny on the floor* ohh! *bends downt o pick up the penny as the sword swishes over his head*


Problem solved!!

godemote.

not realy if someone god emotes a beheading.. doing a simple emote like this thow tecnicaly is a god emote.. it cannot be complained about because lets face it.. people drom coins all the time in roads and such.. if some random decides to chop your head off without asking.. then such is allowed..

Monrena wrote:not realy if someone god emotes a beheading.. doing a simple emote like this thow tecnicaly is a god emote.. it cannot be complained about because lets face it.. people drom coins all the time in roads and such.. if some random decides to chop your head off without asking.. then such is allowed..

Thank you for proving my point!

your welcome? *blinks*

Amaryl wrote:

Lexgrad wrote:I think we are missing a point here.

If a living goes to Forsaken lands alone and mouths off then who is gonna notice they dont come back. It isnt a Question of forced killing, the RPer should know that going there without any expectation to accept death is really bad RP.

This whole thread seems to be a debate over a Bad bit of RP.

so if a random dude is walking behind you and decides to chop off Jarrics head, you're just going to die? since he's walking behind you with a big motherfucking sword and you don't have eyes in your back. because you know you shouldn't be walking the stormwind canals without the expectation of the accept death? or are you going to meta-game looking over your shoulder when you oocly see someone walking behind you with a drawn sword and thus godmoting?

I think nobody is missing your point, its just that your point is stupid. There are always other options then death, if the player doesn't want it. and doing a killshot unannounced unnoticed, unprovoked, will be replied with an emote that could be considered a poweremote/godemote. and there's always OOC whispering, talking, deciding on a more preferable outcome that doesn't break both characters.

But this is all assuming you actually want to rp with each-other. if its clear that the otherside doesn't roleplay on the same level as you do, there's always the option to just you know... ignore and move on, instead of complaining they don't play by my rules they bad rpers! (why do you assume you're not the bad rper? cause nobody does think that of themselves we're all trying to have fun in our own way.)

Jarric died. Not quite as dumb as this but yes, he lost a duel to a younger, fitter, better fighter. It is bad RP to coat him in a (cant die) shield of RP imho. It is the way I RP. Jarric would be dead if it wasnt for Dru. For me it isnt about whether jarric died or didnt. It was about RPing his wounds and the emotes of those who tried to save him.

Putting your char into places where they will get hurt then waving the magic "I cant die wand" leads to "Stupid" RP. In tern Dru for her actions would have taken Execution I am 100% sure of that as others like me accept that our chars are not more important than the RP. There is another aspect to this which is rather than ic death occuring as a random accident or as a result of sensible RP we are in the situation where some have sadistic need to kill other players. Once the rumor goes arround that a player can be killed you will see a gang ready for the zerg and bragging rights that their char did the deed.

Obviously I am debating for sensible RP rather than dying to godemotes ect. Amaryl, shame on you for skewing my point to make it open to ridicule.

Also....

Every RPer thinks they are the best in the world. It is like sex, Those getting more are sluts, those with less are prudes. I would never say to RP to my own standards and totally understand and accept that others RP to their own rules. What I argue is my own standards and that in the case posted of a Living insulting forsaken alone in forsaken land and not expecting death is poor RP. I emagine the forsaken gave him chances to run away but his ooc pride would not yeald.

Lexgrad wrote:we are in the situation where some have sadistic need to kill other players. Once the rumor goes arround that a player can be killed you will see a gang ready for the zerg and bragging rights that their char did the deed.

this is the one reason why i dont tell people in game my charicter is killable thow secretly she is only poeple on this forum know this

Gruff, what you're failing to see is that everyone who is interested in role-playing should understand, somewhat, the lore/land they RP in. I mean, isn't that WHY we rp? Because we love the world and lore?

Yes, some people may want to get on with their own business - fair enough. But those people would then be put on an unwritten blacklist of people not to role-play with.

Moral of the story; do silly things, you die or get ignored. Simple as.

I agree with Amaryl, I've been in a lot of situations on Ishap where she could have died or could have killed someone (or both) and we've decided on a different path to take (ishap being wounded or making an arrest or some such) which will ensure that both characters survive, it's the same reason every emote to do with another person has attempts or tries or something in it. There is also the point of people being extremely annoying like in Morinths or Helmfrids examples in which case either you whisper them and tell them to stop being a douche or just use the ignore function that i love so much.

Amaryl wrote:

There is also the option that the criminals beat up the annoying person, and t hen toss him out of the bar.

or lock him up... or make fun of him..

or summon a demon.. that tries to tear his dick off..

or laugh it off, as if the dude doesn't mean anything

or fill in your own scenario.

killing isn't the only option available to you, to resolve the situation that doesn't break character.

considering if you do a "killshot" without consent you are inviting a poweremote.

if you don't want that power emote, don't do the killshot.

I was only making a parable what would have been the MOST general conclusion. Of course chances of something happening are never 100%. For example Al Qaeda could have bombed the building next to it, thus causing everyone forget about their little dispute. (Really poor option but.......'s all good) But I was clearly comparing the situation with the gangsters, what would have gone down MOST LIKELY in real life. Just my viewpoint, nothing else.

Vaell wrote:Gruff, what you're failing to see is that everyone who is interested in role-playing should understand, somewhat, the lore/land they RP in. I mean, isn't that WHY we rp? Because we love the world and lore?

Yes, some people may want to get on with their own business - fair enough. But those people would then be put on an unwritten blacklist of people not to role-play with.

Moral of the story; do silly things, you die or get ignored. Simple as.

The lore is a reason to play in WOW. Of course. But it is not "the reason" not for all, and not for all RPers. Some people just wish to Roleplay with others. And that doesn't mean they (have to) know the lore, per se. Either canonical, or server. Of course it helps. But I "learn" more every day when I play, check these forums, read on the lore. Same as I do in the "Grimdark", or Faerun, or even Gaslight Cthulhu RP. I learn more, and am intrigued, and learn more as a result.

Decrying someone as "lolRP" or "stupid" because they don't recognise or play by our own (and I include me in that) limited "sense" and "lore" doesn't make sense. It is harmful.

I still don't truly understand what this "living" (no one told me what that actually means yet!) person did that was actually "silly" or even worse "stupid" just by exploring the world we live in, and abiding by the actual RP ruleset...

Personally, it'd be great to see a random encounter breed some quality fun RP. But that's not for everyone, on "either side" of the "problem". But we shouldn't expect others to act a way we do, when "we" are not whole of the server, not even the whole of the RPers on the server. We're a vocal, silly, vain, brilliant, gifted and twattishly stupid bunch of people.

We could argue that black is white and up is down (indeed, we literally could, but that would be in the Debate Thread). And I think sometimes we do...

Quick, stop me...

I'm about to sound like a self-help guide.

*casts levitate on grufftoof and blows him to neerest cliff beffor removing the spell*