Thinking about Role-play : rules to live by

It has been a while since I posted another theorycrafting discussion about some aspect of role-play. Once again, I dedicate it to the greatest RP theorist of all times - professor Etular.

While role-playing, I bet everybody has run into a situation when somebody from the outside has told you "You are wrong" or "You can't be doing that" or "It makes no IC sense" or worse yet "You must face the consequences of your charactert's actions". In the end, something like that can be summed up as 'imposing rules on role-play'; rules akin to Y must always follow X. If you steal and get caught, you must face semi-severe punishment. Again, when saying 'imposing rules on role-play' I do not attach any value-judgement to that.

I think it makes no sense!

Now that I think about it, I think it makes very little sense that people are trying to Impose the Rules on anybody but themselves. In fact, I am daring to state that a lot of drama we have seen over the years resulted from exactly that. One party trying to impose Role-playing rules on another party, and the latter party digging in its heels and resisting. In the end, if somebody thinks he is doing things right and is happy with the way they are going, they are not going to change despite the pressure or the loud arguments and eruptions of drama. Trying to push the issue will only cause stress for both parties.

Rules, what are they good for?

We are all role-playing for fun. Roleplaying is a game. Some of us role-play just to immerse in the setting and interact with the characters, others actually seek 'challenges' to overcome. They want conflict and strife in their role-play. You can't have conflict and strife where everything is possible and your character can achieve his or her goals unopposed. At least for me, Sophyra's dream of demonic ascendency will lose all its appeal if I could just RP some cheap ritual with no preparation or opposition and be done with it. If you want a conflict-based role-play, you must impose rules on yourself. If you are a thief, you can say "I am risking being caught, and if I do get caught it will be bad!" to add a layer of danger and conflict.

How about we do it right?

There is only one truth, and I happen to have it! (Well, actually I don't, but I want to sound american this time so I claim to be ABSOLUTELY CERTAIN ABOUT MY THEORY!) I think the best way to go about this situation is to realize what the Rules are there for, for whom they are made and therefore who should be imposing them.

For instance, the anti-criminal laws and punishments can be seen as a kind of Rules for criminal characters. These rules are there to give meaning to the whole nature of criminal role-play. It won't be challenging or fun to RP a criminal if there are no risks, and it would be a rather poor immersion either. Laws are there to benefit the criminal-rpers. It is very strange that over the years there has been a tendency for Guards&Council to get worked up about the imposition and enforcement of these rules OOCly, considering these Rules are actually there for the fun of the criminals.

Guard Guilds and Law Enforcement in general in this example are actually helping the criminals out to enrich their role-play and give it meaning through danger and regulation. It would make more sense for the Guard Guilds to work closely OOCly with the Bad Guys, not the Council. I think the guards should take it easy, if they are no longer enjoying providing the 'service' to the bad guys, they can skip it. For instance they catch some criminal who OOCly doesn't want any trial or punishment; they shouldn't try to impose any rules on him, they should just tell him that they don't think its fun to help him and RP handing him over to 'NPC guards' and letting him sort it out himself. Because in the end, trying to impose rules on the criminal while those rules are meant to enrich HIS role-play is like force-feeding cake.

So, what do you think about 'imposing rules' and for whose benefit it is?


PS: a small discussion on the guards. From above it would seem that the guards exist solely for the purpose of entertaining the criminals. That is not the case. This 'service' of helping the criminals enrich their roleplay is only a part of what the Guards can be doing, and I genuinely think that any Guard-guild that bases itself entirely one 'Enforcing the Laws' OOCly is doomed to face terrible drama and fail. But I doubt anybody is as perverted as to roll a guard solely for the purpose of imposing his/her/community will on other people. Just to work out my theory and show where the guards (can) stand:

-The guards help the 'bad guys' by assisting them in creating immersion by fleshing out and enacting their self-imposed rules on role-play.
-All role-players ideally assist the guards by providing RP-feedback to their presence and increasing their immersion of being guards. (Ambient tavern-talk about corrupt guards, anything at all that shows that the guards are recognized)
-Politicians (nobles/council) assist the guards by helping to act out and role-play around the self-imposed rules the guards put in place. (Fighting corrupt guards, adding a lot of annoying red tape etc)

All these points help the characters in the guard guild immerse themselves more deeply in the concept and have a greater fun being a guard, or if they are character-oriented, give them more 'stuff' to develop their character.

P.S.S: Yes, according this post it would seem that Role-play interraction is mostly about imposing rules on yourself and looking for help to enforce them, while helping in return. I think it is significant part of RP interraction, but not all of it.

I dont want to sound like a jackass, and I hope you know me better than to think I am trying to sonud like one, but what exactly is this thread for? What's your main point? Its...A bit of a mess, lots of incoherent thoughts and ideas but nothing concrete. Can you sum it up in one or two sentences?

There is meant to be no conclusion or 'main point'

but since you want one:

I think that it is important to ask yourself why we impose rules, and for whose benefit those rules are made. If we do that, we realize that trying to force rules on others or cause drama about lack of rules is just the wrong way to go about. Rules are self-imposed, and are meant to enrich the role-play of the one enforcing them on himself. Other people can however assist the player by role-playing around these rules. For instance, OOCly the Laws are 'rules' for the benefit of the criminals, but they need Guard-RPers to create an immersive story and realize the rules.

The best part of RP is when shit hits the fan.
If everything went perfectly all the time, everyone would get bored and stop. Or be little superhero kids.
When all your plans come crashing down, is when all the fun goes soaring up.

I see.

I have one major gripe with all of this theorycrafting.

Melnerag wrote:Again, when saying 'imposing rules on role-play' I do not attach any value-judgement to that.

Rules that are self-imposed are almost never free of value-judgements. I think my ruleset is superiour to those of others. I really do, and I do not think I am the only one, in fact, most of us do. How frequently do we gossip in guild chat about how bad somebody's RP is? Sure, we can pretend that we transcend mere value judgements by scoffing and saying those rules are just aircastles, but we all know they're more than that. We have our own standards of roleplay, inseperable from those self-imposed rules, and we demand from others that they have similar rules or at least no rules that contradict yours. You do not want others to badly affect the quality of your roleplay. We have our own rules and standards, if others do not conform or contradict them, we get upset.

The attempt to seperate self-imposed rules from value judgements is a hopeless endeavor and I think more than a little naive.

The post started out rather nicely, till it turned into a guard vs criminal discussion.

I agree entirely, and have advocated many times, that laws and punishment should be discussed between criminals and guards. In the end, all the RP around the good guy, bad guy play is to entertain both parties throughout the entire game. From crime to punishment to release.

I do not agree with the angle of your arguments. It almost sounds as if you're trying to defend the criminal roleplayers and point a (not so accusingly) finger at the guards on where the game went wrong. You speak of guards imposing rules.
I agree with the analysis that some of that is wrong.

But here's another theory... or rather an aspect of your theory that is notably absent in your arguments. Just because you don't write out a "Rule", doesn't mean you're not imposing and trying to control another player.

A fact, all too eagerly forgotten, is that criminals are imposing rules on other players whenever they commit a crime.
As I've often mentioned before: you could be walking to the date of your life, you could be on the verge on inventing a device that will save the world, you could be on your way to save the very mother of the criminal that will attack you... None of this matters. The second a criminal stops you to attack you, all that ceases to be and all that remains is his little criminal game.

I've had a nice example of that just yesterday. JP was on his way to a conduct a funeral when he was stopped in his tracks by a lady and her two dogs (of the Worgen breed). They bullied JP.
I loved the RP, mind. It was very nice and all... But the whole funeral which was OOCly arranged, and for which quite some preparation was made, had to wait for these players to "finish their fun" despite the very diplomatic attempts of JP to leave it be.

You claim "guards don't talk to criminals". And that the punishment should be there for their entertainment.
Well.. Where's the topic of criminals talking to us? And where's the topic defending that, it's not really a crime for their entertainment but it's a service to us, commoners, to have a memorable moment of being mugged?

Now, of course, most criminals keep it at a bearable level. In fact, I recall being asked if it was a suitable moment to be robbed most of the time by the Stormwind criminal guilds and I can only say I thoroughly appreciate that level of respect being given. And I try to return the fun by being a rather panicky victim with occasionally an item that might hold more value than the coins in my penny pouch.

I feel respected by a criminal that asks me OOCly before being mugged, kicked and insulted ICly. I feel respected when I'm asked OOCly how much "damage" one is permitted to deal to my character.
Likewise, I think a criminal would feel respected if a guard asks if he "should have seen the crime" (I found this particularly important when the crime happens in a house, and the guard needs to know if he could indeed hear noises). Likewise, I think a criminal will want to be requested what kind of punishment is permitted to be handed to his character.

Rules... ahh.. they shouldn't be made to "rule" RP. They should be a point of coordination, so that we don't end up with 10 minutes of pink whispers before we are permitted to execute 2 emotes.

I think a guard guild and a criminal guild should, at least, consent on one capturing the other and to hold them till a punishment is found. Rules can help establish guidelines.

A fact, all too eagerly forgotten, is that criminals are imposing rules on other players whenever they commit a crime.
As I've often mentioned before: you could be walking to the date of your life, you could be on the verge on inventing a device that will save the world, you could be on your way to save the very mother of the criminal that will attack you... None of this matters. The second a criminal stops you to attack you, all that ceases to be and all that remains is his little criminal game.

Oh...that is -so- recognizable. Most of my RP exists out of evil/criminal/dark/questionable RP, however one should call it. And I've been in drama so often... You do something "bad" ICly to someone and they start spamming your whisper chat with OOC comments "You have now ruined my character's story!" and the likes...Ah well.

As for Melny's post, it's definitely some tasty food for thought, hmm

Edit @ JP: I personally HATE ( as in HATE! ) to ask other roleplayers OOCly if I can kidnap, harm or what ever their character. It's like flipping to the final pages of a book to see what happens. The ooc surprises / plot twists are amazing roleplay. I can understand asking for howlong you may have the character imprisoned however, or howmuch damage you may do. It's what I always do, but yeah...

We are the players, not the dungeon master.

Guard vs Criminal is not really the topic, I just brought it up as it is the clearest practical example. (and the most provocative one) So the whole guard-criminal discussion actually has nothing to do with the way things are right now on DB with the guard-criminal scene. In fact, I got not a clue how things are right now.

Frostfeather wrote:We are the players, not the dungeon master.

No. We are players and dungeonmaster in one. There is no overarching authority to tell us what we can and cannot do to eachother. We have to figure that out ourselves, which is where the drama starts.

I'm not quite sure where this is comming from but I'll just adress a bit of it

-The guards help the 'bad guys' by assisting them in creating immersion by fleshing out and enacting their self-imposed rules on role-play.

This is something we already actively do and I spend alot of my time "micro-managing" IC and OOC guild relationships towards and with the guard. I'm going to use the Forlorn Cartel as an example, the RP between them and the guards is very good and generally easily planned OOCly, we're not raining on their parade(crook rp) too badly, even though we could probably find IC motives to try and execute them all though for the good of the RP we handle it loosely. They in return respect what we are, rpers most of all and second guards they accept their fate when they get caught etcetc..

Now on the other side we have other guilds that want to rp with guards but not for the sake of interaction. For the sake of using them to get their evil plots going. Now I wouldnt mind this but in general its all VERY one sided. They have an event planned, we show up. They expected it, we get our ass whooped or conned. Now for them this is great, they had their share of enjoyable RP while we in the meantime are just victims. The important thing is that you give the guards something to interact with dont solely focus on your own experience. This second example however tends to be the most occuring one, people accept the fact the guards excist but they also generally feel like they should easily play them. People assume we are there to ruin their events being all goody-two-shoes instead of realising we are actually just there to enhance EVERY bit of rp.

All role-players ideally assist the guards by providing RP-feedback to their presence and increasing their immersion of being guards. (Ambient tavern-talk about corrupt guards, anything at all that shows that the guards are recognized)

While acknowledgement of our presence is good. The -LAST- thing we need is more people going on about how corrupt the guard is(Though the regiment is FAR from) I'll use council meetings as an example. They spend atleast 15 minutes at each council meeting hearing from people how corrupt and evil the guard are and how terribly bad they've been treated. Now I'm not going to deny that my members are flawless infact they are far from, but people expect ALOT from the guard since almost everyone has to deal with them in some way or the other atleast when you are located in Stormwind. Meanwhile I cant afford recruiting only the creme de la creme of RPers to ease on complaints since I feel that new rpers need to be helped, guided. Be it through the guild or without.

Politicians (nobles/council) assist the guards by helping to act out and role-play around the self-imposed rules the guards put in place. (Fighting corrupt guards, adding a lot of annoying red tape etc)

In order to keep everyone happy every law or rule basicly goes through the council(I dont know if this is going to change when Aleric leaves) I'm already quite happy with the relationship of the guard towards the council and the RP it creates.(Obviously it could always be more or better but I'm satisfied enough with how it is)

Last but certainly not least

All these points help the characters in the guard guild immerse themselves more deeply in the concept and have a greater fun being a guard, or if they are character-oriented, give them more 'stuff' to develop their character.

P.S.S: Yes, according this post it would seem that Role-play interraction is mostly about imposing rules on yourself and looking for help to enforce them, while helping in return. I think it is significant part of RP interraction, but not all of it.

I am very happy you mentioned this and I think everyone should read this paragraph. It is ALOT of effort to keep everyone happy to some extend and guards have to deal with a whole lot of shit on a daily basis.

It is important that when you are dealing with guards do not be shy to whisper them! Please be all means if something bothers you, chat to them! Communicate! And if the guard in question acts like a douche. Contact their officers! It is important that we remember this is all about interaction and we are not playing a singleplayer-adventuregame

I got put in jail once. All I did was beat a guard with an unconscious gnome. ;_;

Your post really shows the other side of matters, Samian. It has shown me all the flaws of my events, ideas and motives, even if this was by no means your goal.
Aleric's departure might also be an interesting subject to discuss.

Morinth wrote:I got put in jail once. All I did was beat a guard with an unconscious gnome. ;_;

I was a guard once and got beaten by a gnome once!

or twice

hell actualy 4 times *sobs*

Let's make it five.

Lyniath wrote:The best part of RP is when shit hits the fan.
If everything went perfectly all the time, everyone would get bored and stop. Or be little superhero kids.

We agree this far.

Lyniath wrote:When all your plans come crashing down, is when all the fun goes soaring up.

We disagree there though. A good plan will work and generate RP if executed properly. I dare say that the less IC and even OOC knowledge people have about a plot, the more fun it will be for them, if the one who unfolds the story does it right So no, crashing plans aren't necessarily what it takes to have fun ICly.

As for the rules, I'll reply later..

Thelos wrote:

Frostfeather wrote:We are the players, not the dungeon master.

No. We are players and dungeonmaster in one. There is no overarching authority to tell us what we can and cannot do to eachother. We have to figure that out ourselves, which is where the drama starts.

Not sure I understand what you mean.

God emoting is bad and there is a big consensus about that.

If you are talking about OOC planning events and campaigns, claiming property and so on then it is the same basic idea. You shouldn't force anyone to to do anything they don't want to. People generally like to have a choice.

Morinth wrote:Let's make it five.

yeah monrena is the only one so far unnafected by any form of criminal activity! I bet you will never get the chance to harm her in any way Ic'ly if you do i will give you all my draggons! (thow i dont know how)

Frostfeather wrote:
Not sure I understand what you mean.

God emoting is bad and there is a big consensus about that.

Lets say you want your character to lift a open a door.

In D&D, the excistance of the door will have been made known to you by a DM. Whether you succeed in opening the door will be determined both by the statistics of your character and the qualities of the door the DM has determined it has. He is the one that eventually tells you if you succeed.

In WoW, the excistance of the door will have been made known either by yourself, another player, or a long running consensus that has long been established. Who exactly determined whether you succeed in opening the door? It tends to vary. Sometimes it is you yourself who determines it, othertimes it is someone else who might inform you OOCly that it is locked. In any case, it is the players who determine it, a task normally reserved for the DM.

That is why I say that in WoW roleplayers are DM and Player in one; because they are players who do things that is traditionally the DM's job.

Indeed, the Jail cell door in the CC for example or the caretls door to the drug den. Mostly we ignore doors but if someone is in a house my chars normally knock. A quick /w if in doubt is always helpful.

Aha! Never thought all the drama was about opening doors :p

I think you essentially should try and not open doors that might ruin other players fun.

You should not place doors they have to open or place doors that should be stay shut. You can try and in most cases it will work fine since others will let you but it isn't really wrong for someone to open it if they didn't agree in advance that it should stay shut.

IMHO it is when you try and impose your own expansions and additions on players that doesn't agree that the drama starts. That is why you should keep door opening plots to smaller settings - like guild events , or you should agree through /w in advance if that door could be opened.

Again you are the player not the DM. You can be given the role of DM at times but you should never claim to have it if you were not.

I see your theory but having had an alt in the cartel for a while now This theory cannot alwasy work like lets say when they others are doing the poll tax.. sometimes they get to tax 4 or 5 people in a short space of time if they fight something is taken they know right from the offset thats its a mugging as From what i have seen the others make it quite clear with that in mind they see it coming even an idiot can see it yet sometimes we get people god emote there way out we just let em walk on by in that case as its simply easear than ending up with drama shame realy