Re: The vent thread

[corleth]

Also, if look back on history, religions such as Islam, Buddishm and such have been spread by words, talking to other people.
Christianity? The christians massacred people in the middle east at Jerusalem for example, to spread the word of God.

This is incorrect. If by "massacring people in the middle-east" you mean the Crusades, they were not an attempt to spread the word of God but to reclaim the Christian Holy-land from the Muslim Turks that had cut off access to Jerusalem. Christianity was the largest religion in the world at the point, and the Church had been established for many years; so where you got 'the Christians originally spread their teachings by massacring people in the Middle-East' I do not know. The claim that Islam wasn't spread by the sword is ludicrous also, Islam waged religious wars just as, if not more, brutally than their Christian counter-parts, the Prophet Muhammad was a military-leader himself, for heaven's sake. I suggest you read up, as opposed to watching a few of Christopher Hitchens' videos on youtube, listening to 'God Hate's Us All' by Slayer and getting into zealous atheist-mode.

So, yeah - not offended by any critique of religion (I'm all for it), but I am offended by the ignorance your critique highlights. And I'm offended by my own ignorance if your post was some kind of elaborate, satirical trolling.

Didn't. And not saying I'm right as I'm purely guessing from vague knowledge, Rome once being christian rather than greek-gods-with-fancier-names force christianity onto the nations they already claimed and stuff?

But I'm tired so don't blame me for being wrong. Like when I said jewism. My tired brain felt it was correct..

Wait... wasn't I responding to Eowale? :s

Is it wrong of me to make conversation?

I'm pretty sure he meant the Crusades, the Holy Roman Empire (mainly under Charlemange) did indeed force Christianity onto the nations they took over, they did not do that in the middle-east. So, yeah... given that mentioned the middle-east I'm pretty sure he was talking about the Crusades. It was more his claim that Christianity was the only religion to convert by the sword that is just flat out wrong.

[Mandui]

Someone can believe in the typical christian thing (Father, Son and Holy Spirit)

That would be a typical Catholic thing but not a typical Christian thing. There are plenty of flavos of Christanity that have rejected it.

You know what I mean, Mr. Jesus-would-say-that. Besides, the trinity is not only encountered in the catholic belief. And perhaps it's the fact that I'm greek that makes me use the word "Christianity", since in greek it relates to Jesus' name...

...hmmm...

[Thelos]

You know what I mean, Mr. Jesus-would-say-that. Besides, the trinity is not only encountered in the catholic belief.

Well, this is certainly true, but that doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't like people thinking it is a "typical Christian thing". The thing is, Christianity is an ancient tradition that has undergone so much changes and revisions it is sometimes hard to keep track. I'm not sure when the triad interpetation was invented, but it sure as hell was long after the death of 'oll JC. Hunderds and hunderds of years after, in fact.

[Mandui]

You know what I mean, Mr. Jesus-would-say-that. Besides, the trinity is not only encountered in the catholic belief.

Well, this is certainly true, but that doesn't change the fact that I wouldn't like people thinking it is a "typical Christian thing". The thing is, Christianity is an ancient tradition that has undergone so much changes and revisions it is sometimes hard to keep track. I'm not sure when the triad interpetation was invented, but it sure as hell was long after the death of 'oll JC. Hunderds and hunderds of years after, in fact.

Fine. Shall we call it "the Jesus thing" then? xD

[Shaelyssa]

You know I love you Nithel, and I'm not trying to poke holes in your beliefs or anything, but are you really accepting Christian values? It seems like you're taking moral values which you already innately have or have come to a conclusion about, and then saying they coincide with Christian values, no?

Well the fact that you suggest you can make an easy distinction already misses the point I think. Just what exactly are "moral values which you innately have or have come to conclusions about" ? There are many out there who would argue that there is no such thing as an innate moral value, for example, and many more (including myself) that would argue that most of the values that are inherent in Western society are still largely based on Christian values. The thought that you can easily make a distinction between Christian values on the one hand and "your own or innate" values or the other is a bit...How do I put it, naive?

I don't see how it's naive. I'm not saying that Christianity didn't have an affect on Western values, but basic moral values like "murder/rape/cannibalism/infanticide/whatever is wrong" are almost universal and exist in most cultures around the world. Of course, you'd get the odd case of this or that being somewhat acceptable at some point of time, like infanticide in pre-Islamic Arabia and cannibalism in some parts of Central America; but globally, the vast majority of people find rape and murder instinctively abhorrent. Those are the "moral values" that I think are innate in nearly all of us. This might be an evolutionary advantage because maybe we wouldn't have been as successful as a species if that wasn't the case. (Except for maybe the Vikings: they were great at pillaging and murder and went really far :p). Whatever the reason is though, most people have some form of innate, rudimentary view of basic morals regardless of religion, a "moral intuition", if you will. :p

While on the other hand, I'd say avoiding pre-marital sex and homosexuality would be basic Christian values (also common to the other two Abrahamic religions) since those views aren't as commonplace in other cultures.

And when I say "values which you came to a conclusion about", I mean things that you have come to believe by careful thought and analysis. For example, I grew up as a Muslim and Islam taught me that homosexuality is wrong. But by considering the "facts", I came to the conclusion that homosexuality is not wrong.

In essence though, morality doesn't exist. It's an undefinable, non-existent human concept thought of to just allow society to function. Morality is a completely baseless idea. You can't really explain why something is inherently wrong or immoral. Maire is much better at explaining what I mean than I am :p.

[Shaelyssa]

I don't think I am a believer as the Church would have it yes. I see believing as an entirely different thing than you do for example.

I think you should be able to pick and choose what suits you best in religion. I'm fine with saying I'm not a true believer or a hypocrite believer. I believe I'm a catholic in my own way and a lot of people I know and read do too.

It's not hypocrity, it's seeing religion different. You believe it as a set standard of values and truths you cannot deviate from. I see it as an interpretal basis for choosing your own values and truths.

I suppose so, and I understand what you mean now. I'm not sure what I personally believe, but I think I believe in God and in Islam, but there are some things in Islam I do not agree with so I do not follow them; however, I acknowledge that God may probably punish me for that. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not, but whatever. :p I think the part in bold is where we begin to differ?

[Muzjhath]

If there is a God, and he gave me free will. He'll accept the fact that I desided he doesn't exist based on judgements that there is no proof for his existance (and the books that claim he does exist have been proven wrong. Like the fact that the world has existed for more than 6-10 thousand years).
He will accept it, see that I've (mostly) been a good person, and just go "Look, I made a mostly fine creation! Maybe I should be proud that they don't need me to hold their hands!"

Also. Fucking hell. CSN fucking SUCKS (Centrala studie nämden. The part of swedish beurocracy that handles student grants and loans). They fucking suck and the whole fucking organisation should get bloody BOMBED WITH FUCKING SPACE NUKES!

[Mandui]

I'm not sure what I personally believe, but I think I believe in God and in Islam...

Are you sure that your decision to believe in such is not a natural result of where you were born and how you were brought up? I'm asking that in general btw, just addressing you for the sake of the argument. I think that all religions are more or less similar in terms of those certain 'rules' they dictate their believers to follow. They all have a god that was once there but is now departed, conveniently leaving us rules to live by and all of those rules point towards that ethical code we all know about etc.

After looking into the most known religions you can easily see that the core remains the same. The fact that you decide for the one or the other is of little importance since, like you said, the morals and ethics do remain the very same in most of them. So, at the end of the day, following every single rule by the book isn't really what matters. You'd probably do that no matter the religion. What truly matters is that you actually accept to place your faith in a god, a deity, 'something' greater than you. That's why some people claim to be spiritual but not religious.

[Ave/Sariella]

I think religion is stupid, that's just honest me. When i had to go through this christian thingy when i was 14 i did it for the gifts, nothing else.

Why i think it's stupid? Well to me, it makes no sense, there is no proof and thats that. i believe in ghosts however because i've experinced things to do with that, which was likely just caused by stress anyway.

On another note, i fucking hate my fathers girlfriends grand children, they're too noisy which makes my ill dog nervous to hell and he doesn't need that, not to mention those kids deserves a fucking smack.

[Drustai]

For me, personally, I've been Christian all my life, but struggle with my faith due to the lack of definitive proof.

The biggest issue I have with the dogma and such is that... many religions seem to act like their holy text is the word of God. In truth, it is the word of God as interpreted and written down by man. Therefore it is naturally flawed. Hence why many of the edicts and morals espoused by religious institutions are not necessarily right. They don't actually know, truly, what God wants us to believe, beyond believing in Him. They just keep repeating rhetoric written by previous religious groups without really thinking.

[Lexgrad]

Been around long enough to know not to get involved with chat board discussions of religion.... Try to be a moderate in what ever you believe and learn about this...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Misotheism

Have a read, you may find rather than being an atheist you are actually a Misotheist

[Ave/Sariella]

Im nothing but myself, tbfh.

Edit: Can you lot maybe make another thread for this if you have to discuss it?

[Nithel]

I suppose so, and I understand what you mean now. I'm not sure what I personally believe, but I think I believe in God and in Islam, but there are some things in Islam I do not agree with so I do not follow them; however, I acknowledge that God may probably punish me for that. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not, but whatever. :p I think the part in bold is where we begin to differ?

I believe we start to differ in our belief in God yes. I do not believe in a divine that is present and able to touch/affect our lives. Not even in afterlife. I do not believe in an afterlife. I do not believe in a judgement day or that God judges you. I believe that you are your own judge. I don't read the bible literally. I see it as a book of wisdom containing ideas and stories from which you derive ideas and values, not historical facts. I'm sure I would get the stamp of being a bad Catholic, but still I see myself as one.

In the end I am still searching who or what God is for me. But I'm not willing to dismiss what christianity means and meant for me.

Ps: Perhaps a seperate thread would be helpful yes. Maybe a mod could move what's already here to its own topic?

[Nithel]

I suppose so, and I understand what you mean now. I'm not sure what I personally believe, but I think I believe in God and in Islam, but there are some things in Islam I do not agree with so I do not follow them; however, I acknowledge that God may probably punish me for that. I'm not sure if that makes sense or not, but whatever. :p I think the part in bold is where we begin to differ?

I believe we start to differ in our belief in God yes. I do not believe in a divine that is present and able to touch/affect our lives. Not even in afterlife. I do not believe in an afterlife. I do not believe in a judgement day or that God judges you. I believe that you are your own judge. I don't read the bible literally. I see it as a book of wisdom containing ideas and stories from which you derive ideas and values, not historical facts. I'm sure I would get the stamp of being a bad Catholic, but still I see myself as one.

In the end I am still searching who or what God is for me. But I'm not willing to dismiss what christianity means and meant for me. I even believe it is possible to be a Christian even when you do not believe in God.

Ps: Perhaps a seperate thread would be helpful yes. Maybe a mod could move what's already here to its own topic?

[Eowale]

Fuck the what, I never intended to start this when I ranted abit on how I despise religious fanatics in my town.

[Lyniath]

It's really funny, this thread is constantly a debating field for pretty major things. With minor stuff like "Rawr my cat bit me" dotted around.

[Rmuffn]

It's really funny, this thread is constantly a debating field for pretty major things. With minor stuff like "Rawr my cat bit me" dotted around.

It IS a vent thread.
Major things can be needed to be vented for some people.
Like Saph's reason to accidentally start the discussion.

[Geneviève]

I don't intend to be mean, Nithel. Infact I'm saying this with a broad, hopefully warm and kind smile on my face. But you wouldn't just be labelled a 'bad catholic' but a heretic, others would go so far to say you're an apostate but as you still formally assossiate yourself with Catholocism they'd be wrong. Essentially you're denying several dozen Catholic doctrines implicitly and others by extension.

Given what you've said I'd define you as a Deist. However, our own self image is something that's very, very hard to shake and also very important. I've watched interviews with Christians who deny the divinity of Christ but cannot shake their own self image as a Christian. Religion has passed from a collection of rigidly held beliefs to a cultural identity and heretige for many people.

I will judge people incredibly harshly for their views and beliefs. We chose to hold them and if they're immoral or untrue I will say so. However, given what you've said you believe I can't really fault you.


Lexgrad: Misotheism and Atheism have nothing to do with each other apart from Misotheism being a commonly used argument against religion. Identification of religion as a negative influence in the world and Atheism are strongly linked, very few Theists I would imagine believe their beliefs are harmful to themselves or others. Misotheism is also a commonly held argument used by Christian Apologetics, the deplorable William Lane Craig is a good example, to discredit Atheists as mere "rebellious teens" who "don't understand God".

It's similar to the rebranding of Agnosticism, from it's etymological roots as a potential qualifying prefix for atheism/theism along with gnosticism, to an invented and linguistically impossible middle ground. An underhand word game intended to scuttle a position before it can even present its case.

I would, however, assume that you are trolling and not sincere in your belief that many, or even a sizable majority of Atheists are just 'angry at God'. If that is your argument, you and I really, -really- need to talk.

[Lyniath]

^^ that's why I <3 this thread

[Eowale]

Ah yes. Religion. The root of all evil.

[Geneviève]

Don't exaggerate. :S

[Lyniath]

Anything that can widely influence can be evil.
Religion, Political Ideology, Money...

[corleth]

William Lane Craig

Just for the record: I hate that guy also.

[Eowale]

Don't exaggerate. :S

But I am not, m'dear. 9/11? Islamistic Terrorism (atleast what the authorities say, fuck if I know). Wasn't World War 2 against the jews? Judism? (And because the german people were like "DEY TUK UR JUB!!"). The Crusades in the Middle-east (Yes, I was refering to them, Corleth, sorry if I was abit vague), wasn't it for christianity? Come on, we've all ready history. When people contradicted them (Them, meaning, the religious people), they instantly declared that they were "heretics", as you so called a fellow person on this forum, or possessed by the devil. All of the suicide bombings over europe, wasn't that because of the islamistic fanatics? The massacre at Utoya in Norway, the shooter had connections with the fanatical movements of Islam.
The missionaires went to Africa, and taught of God and the Bible, and jesus and all the bollocks. When they refused, they killed the black inhabitants. When the africans later became slaves, they were not allowed to be within their own religion.

It's always been like that, I think the world would be quite alot nicer without alot of religion.

[Lyniath]

Wasn't World War 2 against the jews? Judism? (And because the german people were like "DEY TUK UR JUB!!")

That was just an aspect of it. WW2 had several causing factors.

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