No freedom of speech

I'm not sure if this has been discussed somewhere, but it's something that has been on my mind for months. Whenever cultists, shadow wielders, or even holy power and magic wielders come into play... The trump card "Freedom of speech" is often wielded like a dagger that backstabs all sorts of arguments. While I can understand that some extent of freedom may be part of the (Human) community, I doubt that a nation flooded with magic truly offers freedom of speech.

My reasons to assume such are simple.
- We live in a fantasy world that still "mimics" a medi evil time where freedom of speech was inexistant. To speak loudly against the King could perhaps be a valid reason for incarceration and conviction.
- We live in a world where uttering words can form a spell that decimates a whole town. Should we freely permit such people to curse and mutilate your children through a "freely" spoken verse or song?

Taking this a step further... we find an odd conflict. Holy characters would recite a prayer like "Light be praised" a hundred times a day. In this world, this might actually yield them divine power. Would the opposite then be true?
And if so... Would voicing a malevolent worship or damning the "good" powers not be a source of evil power?

Either way, I would like to discuss this, as I've been confronted with this "freedom of speech" trumpcard on several occasions and always felt it was just not fitting for this setting.

I think Blizzard established how the Light and Shadow work for mortals. There are numerous grimoires, rituals, tomes and other tools and documents that tell how to summon a demon or use the Nether/Fel/Arcane, whilst there's a complete phylosophy behind how the Holy Light works, what one must think and base their life upon. They are similar, but widely different at the same time, at least for me.

This freedom of speech however is ridiculous. Players have the freedom of speech, but the characters, to fit their role, shouldn't. Just look at Silvermoon City, Orgrimmar and Stormwind City and how the NPC-s live and you'll see the issue with implying there's such liberty in any of those kingdoms to let everyone speak up and have the right to do so. If that was the case I'd guess Blizzard would prove it, and not leave it alone and hope the players get the picture.

I mean, they did so in Silvermoon City. If they leave out the NPC Guards and the Arcane Guardians you'd think the place is a haven of democracy and almost anarchic, yet the developers added signs of a tyrannical regime (That so many ignore). Stormwind on the other hand...
I don't feel anything so elevated as Silvermoon about it. It's a medieval city built on the suffering of lowerclass people and is sustained through such as well. In all honesty, it's the same tyranny, but while Silvermoon requires violent actions and open examples of authority, Humans got Wrynn and a code to uphold to make themselves feel better. It's kinda obvious for me at least.

Hear hear! There is no reason to assume that modern concepts such as freedom of speech, freedom of press, innocent until proven guilty or other human (or non-human) rights exists. I would in fact think that Amnesty International would have a thing or two to say about the world of Azeroth .

Agreed.

JP, the problem is people trying to compare the fantasy world and how it works with real life democrasy, monarchy and so forth as well as trying to push how things work over there, to here, or at least justify doing it here because its done where they live or it has been done where they live.

I feel this is a good example of not being able to fully intrigate a character within the boundaries of Warcraft as a reality. When people state they're are using their freedom of speech ( when you think of it, it's absurd) they are mixing real life into warcraft. It's a reflex, we invest so much into our so called freedom of speech, that we even use it in a world where freedom of speech could get you killed.

Also, I feel that perhaps people draw the 'freedom of speech' card, due not able to cope with their character being criticized, or they simply have an IC deathwish.

In my opinion, simply, no. You do not have freedom of speech in Warcraft. The dogmas, systems and construction of Warcraft simply would not allow it, (Edit:) To the extend we do it here, irl.

Freedom of speech?!
Not in my Silvermoon D:
http://www.wowpedia.org/Harassed_Citizen
http://www.wowpedia.org/Lyria_Skystrider + http://www.wowpedia.org/Priest_Ennas

And yeah, Silvermoon has only the surface appearance of being an utopia to live in whilst its in the iron grip of the Magisters. Or as the Arcane Guardian says: HAPPINESS IS MANDATORY, CITIZEN!

Or the good old: "Obey the laws of Silvermoon. Failure to do so will result in termination."
Imagine if every broken law ended in an execution : |

Silferdrake wrote:I would in fact think that Amnesty International would have a thing or two to say about the world of Azeroth .

Priceless.

Regardless of Azeroth having freedom of speech or not, in times of total war words spoken out of turn can get you convicted in even the most liberal of countries of the real world. And guess what....Stormwind is in state of unending war for 8 years! If a character says -anything- that compromises morale, unity, authority, security or the war effort - he is toast.

Jeanpierre wrote: - We live in a fantasy world that still "mimics" a medi evil time where freedom of speech was inexistant. To speak loudly against the King could perhaps be a valid reason for incarceration and conviction.

This I believe is a moot argument. It is exactly as you say: Azeroth mimics medieval times. In appearance only. There are however so many modern values, ideas and technologies (disguies as magic, but still) interwoven in Azeroth, that it is much more like our time than the medieval times. Not to sound offensive, but take women in Azeroth, for example. Dont you think they're a bit - too - emancipated, considering we're supposed to be in the middle ages?

The way I see it, is that Blizzard has sketched a modern world and colored it with modern paint. This effect is amplified a dozen times by the players who inhabit the world: modern players. This is how I have been feeling about religion in Azeroth for quite some time as well. The Holy light has all the looks, style and vocabulary of old fashioned christianity, but emobdies all the virtues and philosophy of the moder age. Unless the plot demands otherwise, of course.

And that is exactly how I would suggest you deal with the freedom of speech problem. If it makes for a good story to have a good row about it, then by all means, go for it. There seems to be enough feelings and evidence to support this sort of plot, judging from this thread. However, I wouldn't say that this means the opposite is unthinkable. Characters with modern values and who value free speech and would demand this right can excist in Azeroth. This is not lorebreaking. This may feel schizophrenic and unrealistic, but I feel this is the natural result of a fictional universe that tries to be both medieval and modern simaltenously.

Jeanpierre wrote: - We live in a world where uttering words can form a spell that decimates a whole town. Should we freely permit such people to curse and mutilate your children through a "freely" spoken verse or song?

This, however, makes perfect sense.

Jeanpierre wrote:Either way, I would like to discuss this, as I've been confronted with this "freedom of speech" trumpcard on several occasions and always felt t was just not fitting for this setting.

I think I have made it clear why I disagree with your conclusion. I do feel this card is a valid one to play. However, it would also be a valid move to deny a character from excercising this right, as it is not as common and taken-for-granted as in our own universe. An argument on freedom of speech, not as a given but as a possiblity and a difference in personal beliefs, is feasible I think. In Azeroth, your character can have any set of morals you want him to have, as long as you and him/her can justify it.

Looking at freedom of speach I'd say it's far more likely that it exists within several of the Horde cultures than the Alliance. The only I'd say "They have it" about would be the Draenei, since their society seem's to be one big hippy commune.

Looking at Trolls, Orcs and Tauren I'd say they are free to say quite what they wish. There might just be some consequences. But it seem's more that one would get a rough beating rather than locked up/killed for speaking. Unless they tried to get a revolt against the warchief.
Silvermoon we know about, and I'm not touching the Forsaken with a ten foot pole since well... They be dead.

For Humans and Dwarves I'd say neither can freely say what they want without suffering consequences. Being loud and very drunk proclaming that Varian Wrynn is the worst king in history wouldn't keep you out of jail. The guards would come and lock you up with a stiff fine.
The Gnomes I'd say have abit mroe freedom since well... they seem to be semi-democratic. But while in Ironforge they to some degree have to follow dwarven law. No ousting Moria Bronzebeard as a traitourus bitch while guards are listening.

Night elves... I have no idea off really, and while they might not lock someone up. I feel that a Night Elf that openly talked against Elune would be shunned rather harshly.
Worgen I'd put in the same bucket as humans. Goblins would depend on what tradeprince and how nice he is.

Muzjhath wrote:
Night elves... I have no idea off really, and while they might not lock someone up. I feel that a Night Elf that openly talked against Elune would be shunned rather harshly.

They might have gotten laxer with the years, especially with the Highborne added now.

You make a very interesting point Thelos. I doubt Lore offers a clear cut answer, but I still would lean towards a world too crude to offer such a thing as freedom of speech.

If we look at the Warcraft series, we see a few indications, I think. Arthas kills a thief, no questions asked. Varian.. Well... that's Varian. Commoners are presented as if that everything is done for the Lord and it's the Lord that points them "to the Light". In this, it sounds to me that the King's word is law. And because it is the law, to speak against the King makes you unlawful.
There doesn't seem to be a conscious democracy in the Human nations. It's the King's will that decides what is best for the nation and the people.

So yes, I don't think there's complete freedom of speech. Though, perhaps, the ability to wield magic through speech is perhaps the strongest reason yet.

There was nothing worse than when Dreth was making an arrest and players would turn up cryig freedom and demanding to know why i was making an arrest. Most have never even read the server laws. I do not think it is quite a police state but it defo should not be free.

Word of caution towards those arguing that modern values shouldn't be prominent in wow since it's far from the modern world. Yes, you're right. But do remember that most of us are also viewing the middle ages through the eyes of the modern world.

So when we think of a world without freedom of speech, we think of either the oppresive information regimes of the modern world or even more extreme, the absolute antithesis of freedom of speech. ie. that every time you open your mouth there's a risk to be thrown in prison unless you conform to the "tolerated thoughts". This is even more incorrect.

Yes, there were laws against sedition. But if you had drunk a bit and said something critical about the king to a local royal guardsman, he'd give you a pat on the back and send you home to sleep it off. At worst he'll throw you in a cell to sober up. Sedition is a criminal offense that betrays it's purpose. It's a political tool to throw people who try to rally people against you. Not to throw loose-tounged that can't think of what they're saying.

Same should really apply to most things. Openly discussing fel and Shadow is unlikely to lead to an arrest. Preaching or trying to teach it however are, especially if you get a following.

Fact is, while human rights are considerably limited. So is the flow of information and the resources of the guard. They can't just do silly stuff like take everyone in who says something silly. Now if a moral guardian can bring in a few witnesses, then fine, but not some loony on the streets noone listens to.

Very good post Galhalla, I subscribe to everything you just said.