Know thy crimes! Know thy sins! Can thou reach Heaven?

I will create this Kaldorei, and I will succeed!

Eówale is both an apostate and a heathen. He renounced his faith in the Light the day he was ressurected as a Death Knight, follows the Forgotten Shadow (Pretty much the opposite of the Holy Light) and has pledged his soul to Phelgas. And he's in no position to convert either. Y'know, undead, powered by Unholy, etc. All of that lovelyness.

Punching JP in the nose made Amy a Despoiler xD

Lexgrad... the Undead Anethion. The light works through him to save all his kind.

As said by a friend, who also asked me to post (Víncent)

The only ones Vincent hasn't comitted are Sodomy, Frolicking and Leisure as far as I can see.

TBH Vincent, if you have done that many forget about heaven and redemption, try to do the whole list. XD

Timna wrote:The only ones Vincent hasn't comitted are Sodomy, Frolicking and Leisure as far as I can see.

So, he's killed people, he's sold, snatched, bargained away and destroyed souls, he's worked with demons, he's a blasphemer, denier of the revelation and a misotheist. But he hasn't done anal.

He might get into heaven.

Coppersocket -

Criminal, Meddler, Witchcraft, Intellectual Arrogance, Treason, Murder, Harm, Theft, Adultery, Deception, Insult, Denying Aid, Mockery, Spreading Ill Rumors, Arrogance, Selfishness, Wrath, last but not least Prejudice.

Speculation prompted by this thread:

Firstly, I don't really think heaven is a distinct concept in the Holy Light. Being at one with the Light and the Universe is. Though that is very different to heaven.

Secondly, you've turned the Holy Light into the Catholic Church!
I don't think shadow magic is something that someone who truly understands the light, certainly not someone who follows the Naaru, can be completely against. Shadow is as much a part of the universe as Light, indeed there can be no light without shadow, and there can be no shadow without light. Just as the Naaru go through their darkened stages, so too does the universe have to contain shadow.
What the main issue is, really, is what that shadow is used for. The darkness that Velen talks about fighting is that of the Burning Legion and their Fel magic, not the shadow which makes up half the universe (and, indeed, half of a Naaru's very being).

For the Human church, great. But I don't think Blood Elves or Draenei would take half these 'sins' seriously. Besides, the Light is not a religion based on wrongdoings, punishment, and sin. It is a philosophy based on a set of basic tenants in the hope of becoming at one with the Holy Light (and universe).

Anethionism is a Human Religion. Other race is yet to get their prophets . They suffer a lightless existance until that day, and before that they can't be redeemed AND MUST BUUUUUUURN FOR THEIR SINS!!!

Skaraa wrote:
I don't think shadow magic is something that someone who truly understands the light, certainly not someone who follows the Naaru, can be completely against. Shadow is as much a part of the universe as Light, indeed there can be no light without shadow, and there can be no shadow without light. Just as the Naaru go through their darkened stages, so too does the universe have to contain shadow.

I don't really understand this kind of reasoning. Just because something is a part of the universe, we're supposed to accept it? Pah! The devils and sins exist, which makes resisting and denying them all the more meaningful. Will we stop being Human (or Draenei, whatever) when we rid ourselves of these natural things? Probably. Is transcending the mortal condition a classical religious tennent? Definately!

The Draenei certainly understand that the Shadow is part of the cosmos. That doesn't mean that they have to like it or accept it. just like how many Christian schools of thought accept Evil as a real, ontological substance, but don't exactly accept it any more for it!

skarain!! noooo!! how much did they convert you juring your forced conscription!! *weeps*

Thelos wrote:

Skaraa wrote:
I don't think shadow magic is something that someone who truly understands the light, certainly not someone who follows the Naaru, can be completely against. Shadow is as much a part of the universe as Light, indeed there can be no light without shadow, and there can be no shadow without light. Just as the Naaru go through their darkened stages, so too does the universe have to contain shadow.

I don't really understand this kind of reasoning. Just because something is a part of the universe, we're supposed to accept it? Pah! The devils and sins exist, which makes resisting and denying them all the more meaningful. Will we stop being Human (or Draenei, whatever) when we rid ourselves of these natural things? Probably. Is transcending the mortal condition a classical religious tennent? Definately!

The Draenei certainly understand that the Shadow is part of the cosmos. That doesn't mean that they have to like it or accept it. just like how many Christian schools of thought accept Evil as a real, ontological substance, but don't exactly accept it any more for it!

They do not have to like it, no. But they -do- have to accept it. Even if they kill every last demon and Shadow magic-user, Shadow is still a part of the cosmos and a part of the Naaru. Light cannot exist without Shadow. Think of them as being positive and negative, to call something positive is meaningless if there is no such thing as negative. There are many nouns in language which are like this, meaningless without their counterparts, and Light and Shadow are like this in relation to the philosophy of the Light on Azeroth.

Good and Evil are subjective terms, meaningless without the other. To say something is good with no apprehension of what is not good is meaningless. Light and Dark, in Warcraft, practically refer to good and evil in this way, even if they do not it is still nonsensical to refer to something as being 'Light' with nothing to contrast it to.

And yes, if something is part of the universe we -do- have to accept it. Pretending we did not discover something, or the evidence is not there, does nothing for us or for Human civilisation. Wishful thinking does not change the way the universe works.
Also, I do not believe that devils do exist in the Warcraft setting (Demons are, to my mind, something different). If you were speaking from a real life perspective, I would love to see your evidence for that extraordinary assertion.

Also, Thelos, I -love- your signature. Is that a Mind Flayer?

Skaraa wrote:

Thelos wrote:

Skaraa wrote:
I don't think shadow magic is something that someone who truly understands the light, certainly not someone who follows the Naaru, can be completely against. Shadow is as much a part of the universe as Light, indeed there can be no light without shadow, and there can be no shadow without light. Just as the Naaru go through their darkened stages, so too does the universe have to contain shadow.

I don't really understand this kind of reasoning. Just because something is a part of the universe, we're supposed to accept it? Pah! The devils and sins exist, which makes resisting and denying them all the more meaningful. Will we stop being Human (or Draenei, whatever) when we rid ourselves of these natural things? Probably. Is transcending the mortal condition a classical religious tennent? Definately!

The Draenei certainly understand that the Shadow is part of the cosmos. That doesn't mean that they have to like it or accept it. just like how many Christian schools of thought accept Evil as a real, ontological substance, but don't exactly accept it any more for it!

They do not have to like it, no. But they -do- have to accept it. Even if they kill every last demon and Shadow magic-user, Shadow is still a part of the cosmos and a part of the Naaru. Light cannot exist without Shadow. Think of them as being positive and negative, to call something positive is meaningless if there is no such thing as negative. There are many nouns in language which are like this, meaningless without their counterparts, and Light and Shadow are like this in relation to the philosophy of the Light on Azeroth.

This kind of logic really doesn't apply to religion. The idea that 'Light cannot exist without Shadow', while perhaps accurate logically, detracts from the divine power of the Light. Light can exist without Shadow, because the Light is the Light. It is divine and can do anything.

Good and Evil are subjective terms, meaningless without the other. To say something is good with no apprehension of what is not good is meaningless. Light and Dark, in Warcraft, practically refer to good and evil in this way, even if they do not it is still nonsensical to refer to something as being 'Light' with nothing to contrast it to.

Again, good and evil are not subjective by religious standards. They are very defined concepts. The Shadow is the antithesis of Light worship... it is ideologically opposite. Where the Light gives and nurtures, the Shadow takes and destroys. Light is altruism, Shadow is selfishness. Shadow is sin. It is natural but it is not good and all faithful worshipers of the Light would do all they could to resist, combat, and eliminate this evil, completely.

And yes, if something is part of the universe we -do- have to accept it. Pretending we did not discover something, or the evidence is not there, does nothing for us or for Human civilisation. Wishful thinking does not change the way the universe works.

Again, you're talking from a non-religious standpoint. As far as religion is concerned, the universe is not so cut and dry.

You are correct, Drustai. Thank you for blowing me out of the water there. I allowed logical perceptions of the real world to cloud what should have been my character's perceptions of a fantastical world. I know that I am guilty of doing the same, more so, from a biological standpoint - with the cross-breeds and such.

One does not simply judge the World (of Warcraft) by the standards of the (Real) World. ^^

I was wrong to do so.

Lets not forget that Anethionism is a religion made by a bunch of traumatized, clerics trying to create an ideology that will make sure something like the fall of Lordaeron would never....ever...EVER happen again.

So sin places a part in it. 'Sin' is a weakness. Sin is anything that makes you even remotely weak. In the end, Anethionism is probably not about reaching the Light or being a good person but forging an invincible society that can exist forever and absorb all the shocks. The Light is in it because men who made it were Clerics, if they weren't they would have still made something similar but had it as a political ideology.