How medieval weapons/armour work

I found a series of excellent documentaries on the tubes, "Weapons that made Britain - Sword/Shield/Lance/Longbow/Armor".
Hopefully these will help quell the worst "but a longbow can pierce full plate at 500 meters!!" /general arguments

The Sword
The Shield
The Longbow
The Lance
Armor

Each episode is split up in nine 5min segments and covers the period from the danish occupation until the end of the Hundred Year war, roughly.

Ooh, interesting! Good stuff this!

Well done sir! It gives good grounding on armour and weapon capacities which should make Rp alot more interesting and hopefully make you think alot more.

Alot of poeple I see tend to do one of the two:

Overplay thier weapons capability in a situation. Or.. Underplay the protective capacity of thier armour. The latter of course being upto the player being hit as it's ultimatly thier choice to take hits or not.

With any luck we might see less open fights and could start to be able to buy our morning bread without fear! :p

Having said that, I've watched them all and I highly recommend everyone give them a look Regardless of the RP assistance they give they're just simply interesting in thier own right.

Jayse wrote:Having said that, I've watched them all and I highly recommend everyone give them a look Regardless of the RP assistance they give they're just simply interesting in thier own right.

Indeed! I suspect that historian to be the father of Jack Bauer and Chuck Norris!

I once saw an episode of Deadliest Warrior, where a medieval Knight was pitted against a pirate. Know what came out? A flintlock can't pierce plate armor. I'll go see if I can find a youtube vid when I'm in less of a lazymood.

Been watching the first two parts. Really interesting.

Don't know how much our little world full of magic and crazy fits, but fun to watch nonetheless.

Coladan wrote:I once saw an episode of Deadliest Warrior, where a medieval Knight was pitted against a pirate. Know what came out? A flintlock can't pierce plate armor. I'll go see if I can find a youtube vid when I'm in less of a lazymood.

Remember what also happened? The Pirates blunderbuss pierced the armour very well. And the Pirate won overall.

This fight is a very good visual aid on how a fight should go down between a thug and a Guard so someone find a video xD

Guys, real history of armor has nothing to do with WoW, unless roleplayers begin to fight and act reasonably. I was wearing my full plate, but some thugs tried to mug me. I was waering full plate, but some thug attacked me. He was unarmored, and a -thug-.

Now think of a mid-aged knight, almost in his forties. Clad in armor. And yet some -unarmored- thug attacks him. In real, without armor you are nothing. In WoW ofcourse you can have some super agility and all that, I don't mind. But if people roleplay simple thugs, why the hell they are at the same time hypocrites and attack fully armored knights.

As if all common lowlife street thugs have been in wars and practiced to kill since their childhood. And most of the knights are like that (again, if we look at medieval times). They are to be killing machines and nothing else. No wonder that heavy cavalry of knights owned battlefields till box formations, pikes and muskets. Though even during muskets, heavy cavalry armed with pistols (reitars/early cuirassiers) rocked, untill the line infantry emerged.

And I can hardly image a fantasy where guns can penetrate armor so easily. People mostly wear bulky armor, so the gun must be bulky too. And not to be a pistol like most people use. Or else... damn, I'll go create and level a rogue to 20-30 level, get him a pistol and will rock the streets. I will shoot all knights and footmen!

Good stuff! Will certainly put an end to ridiculous arguments

Jomir/Nastor/Gannas wrote:

Coladan wrote:I once saw an episode of Deadliest Warrior, where a medieval Knight was pitted against a pirate. Know what came out? A flintlock can't pierce plate armor. I'll go see if I can find a youtube vid when I'm in less of a lazymood.

Remember what also happened? The Pirates blunderbuss pierced the armour very well. And the Pirate won overall.

True, but people usually draw a pistol and not a blunderbuss (except for Dwarves x3) However, Avein makes a good point. With all the technology, guns and rifles to the point of looking -rediculously- futuristic...WoW's more steampunk than fantasy. Armor propably got updated as well, because on that note...The shoulderplates most of us are wearing? We wouldn't be able to lift our arms higher than horizontally in front of us. Bit like Darth Vader in Star Wars IV x). Very ineffective in a fight.

Edit: As for the blunderbuss, it did misfire the first time :p

Oh yeah so it did xD

Speaking of advances in technology, in Cataclysm the Gnomes are seen using laser pulse rifles. Discuss.

World of Starcraft

A bloke who isn't in armour just has as many advantages as a guy who is.
When in plate you'd be damned well bogged down, if anyones worn real plate armor, they will know what I am talking about. The unarmored would certainly have more flexibility but would be dead if he or she chose to take on an like Knight in a narrow street.

And good point above. It is more steam punk. So armour is more attuned to taking spell damage etc (the good stuff at least) when it comes to guns, perhaps Gnomish 'Pulse rifles' are just the technological equivalent of lobbing a fire bolt at someone.

Also take into consideration with many WoW guns, it can be more then likely (only certain WoW weapons could actually fire modern ballistic rounds, most part it would be a black powder shotte) their bullets cannot pierce armour. I.E certain points in like a warriors armour and shield are able to sustain the average bullet or round, many guns would also be fairly inaccurate at long range.

Same of course goes to bows. The reason why you had dense formations of longbow men and musket men was because if they acted in a sparse skirmish formation, hardly anyone would get hit. A lot of these weapons are pretty inaccurate save for the best who are difficult to come by.

When I use any such long range weapons against people in Rp fights, I inform them that...

Hellies Pistols cannot pierce plate save for being close to or in and around point blank.
Arrows can be slowed down by padding in the armour, shield block etc. Mail is excellent for stopping arrows and such hits.
Bolts are more deadly, but crossbows are slow to load. Bolts can pierce through pretty much anything and everything.
The Gun Hellvern uses (the big Dalaran styled lvl 80 rifle) fires ballistic rounds, which are very deadly, and has an easy reload, but is styled for long range warfare. AKA Hellie cannot use it effectively within buildings and close quarters, due to its size.

And I have never used laser guns or anything like that, so never really came up with an option thus.

But in Emote fights I offer balanced ways to avoid or slow down my attacks. It also turns into a perfect excuse not to kill people. Often I have found people are too eager to try and kill other characters or seem to find themselves in a situation where its nigh impossible. These sorts of things can really help give good excuses why someone stayed alive.

Hand to hand weapons are the same, I think the most deadliest of all hand to hand weapons is the mace.

No matter how much armour you are wearing, Maces can effectively override it.
If someone say a Red Blade or a DRS hit Hellvern with a mace. Hellvern would be pretty messed up, even if he was wearing full mail armour. Since Maces work on like a force wave or shock that goes through the armour breaking bones.

And Swords are overrated, they are mostly used for stabbing. Keep in mind, slash wounds from a sword rarely kill. They can maim and wound, but to slash with a sword just cuts flesh, since the blade never goes deep enough to cut body organs, it also cannot cut through any armour, including hardened cloth.

Lets hope WoW decided to create a fantasy version of a Dacian Falx, a weapon that proved effectively deadly when used against heavily armoured Romans and could cut through shields and the heavy Roman Lorica Segmentata armour!

War studies geekiness owns.

In reality, a flintlock might not punch through a suit of full-plate... but in reality, said flintlock couldn't have been loaded with magic bullets gifted to the wielder by a sect of time-travelling dragons.

As interesting as the workings of ancient weaponry is, World of Warcraft is a game of fantasy (regardless of whichever particular label you wish to apply). It always baffles me when, amidst exploding dragons destorying half the world and armies of demons invading from other dimensions, it is the very mundane which breaks people's suspension of disbelief.

As long as it falls within the confines of possibility for the universe our characters inhabit, I personally won't get annoyed if people do wacky things now and again. I certainly won't expect them to take a course in medieval arms or feudal politics just to have fun RPing.

Millana wrote:In reality, a flintlock might not punch through a suit of full-plate... but in reality, said flintlock couldn't have been loaded with magic bullets gifted to the wielder by a sect of time-travelling dragons.

As interesting as the workings of ancient weaponry is, World of Warcraft is a game of fantasy (regardless of whichever particular label you wish to apply). It always baffles me when, amidst exploding dragons destorying half the world and armies of demons invading from other dimensions, it is the very mundane which breaks people's suspension of disbelief.

As long as it falls within the confines of possibility for the universe our characters inhabit, I personally won't get annoyed if people do wacky things now and again. I certainly won't expect them to take a course in medieval arms or feudal politics just to have fun RPing.

Thanks for that refreshing, and true statement.

I've always pushed for that, with my play anyway. Grufftoof isn't a conventional troll, *shrug* and thats how I like it.

Its nice to have an element of realism besides the whole fantasy part of it. Lord of the Rings, The Rift War saga, Legends of the Red Sun, they have some pretty over the top and fantastic imaginary stuff. But you still need that whole element of physics etc involved.

Otherwise there is just no actual foundation to the world at all, its just all mad. Anyone can beat anybody through some weird magic crap. It shouldn't be like that, even fantasy writers and the like to have limits and 'realism' involved, because then things are more structured. I am unsure whats the proper word for it, but you need that foundation of having a realistic setting when it comes to such things, we're not talking about how impossible dragons etc are.
But more there are limits on the actions people can take, especially with fighting, there is a reason hunters use guns, Warriors wear plate and Mages wear cloth. They are limited to these things and thus have said weaknesses and limits.

That said, I don't mind the occasional crazy thing. Though some things get really crazy, like poisoned bullets someone tried to use on my alliance char.

Millana wrote:In reality, a flintlock might not punch through a suit of full-plate... but in reality, said flintlock couldn't have been loaded with magic bullets gifted to the wielder by a sect of time-travelling dragons.

Said full-plate could also be imbued with the power of the Sparkly Pony (or whatever :p), so let's assume that magic cancels each other out.

A bullet could deliver toxin. A musketball hollowed, or a shotgun shell with the shot coated in something. Of course it would effect the weapon's range and accuracy, but then you would be delivering a poison...

(also there is the famous case of Gregori Markov killed by the KGB with a ricin pellet from an umbrella...)

Some fantasy writers work magic quite "simply". It exists, but it is SO strong that it is wielded by the very, very powerful (or even godlike, or gods)(gandalf, saruman, sauron etc) or a much more subtle magic, infusing things or through words and song or wrought into an item or place (like beorn's powers, the powers of the elves in song, sting, narsil, barad dur etc).

Those are just examples off the top of my head. But magic in WoW doesn't seemingly act like that, any of our characters could be magic users. Most characters have some kind of "magic" at their disposal. Magic is everywhere. But how strong is our magic? It's strong enough to help us "destroy" kings, dragons and gods. There is little limit on our magic, but we know it cannot be as powerful as that wielded by for instance Jaina, or Alexstraza...

WoW is one thing definitely I guess... confusing

You couldn't used poison bullets in things like a gun. The Black powder or heat from firing a round would actually burn the 'poison' up. Plus, more then likely the bullet would do enough damage that even if you could put poison in it the person would be dead, the power and violent force used would render poison on a bullet either not worth bothering with or useless. Unless its darts, I forgot about that one but they sorta inject the stuff inside on impact and don't really punch holes through you. Interesting ideas though Gruff might have a look into that. Many things are possible if you put your mind to it after all!

I suspect what the KGB used to kill Gregori Markov was a very short ranged projectile weapons with similar functions to a gun, but doesn't create as much heat. I have heard of guns you can use on like commercial airplanes in case of a hijacking, where it can fire a round that is only strong enough to go through thin clothing and skin and can minimise the friction of heat that can lead to that Hollywood Gun blast.

But then again perhaps theres the weakness. Maybe we go into so much detail is probably easier just not to care and get on with it! I am so fickle.

So agreed its definitely very confusing. I guess in the game we can just keep to the basics as good excuses to keep our characters alive and not go OTT in emote battles.

Saali wrote:Said full-plate could also be imbued with the power of the Sparkly Pony (or whatever :p), so let's assume that magic cancels each other out.

This kinda highlights my point. You are asking to discount the 'magic' in order to focus on the mundane.

Well, when it comes to all the arguments "But we have magic, it's a fantasy world" sayings.
It is due to the fact that this world is fantastic and has stuff that doesn't exist in this one that the little things should be as realistic as possible. Things that aren't magic working as they do in our world brings life even to parts that can't exist in ours.

Millana wrote:

Saali wrote:Said full-plate could also be imbued with the power of the Sparkly Pony (or whatever :p), so let's assume that magic cancels each other out.

This kinda highlights my point. You are asking to discount the 'magic' in order to focus on the mundane.

Of course I'm asking that.
It'll just end up with "But my magic gunz is stronger than your magic armor - no u" arguments otherwise.

With magic being so common in WoW, every single obstacle can conveniently be solved with "I cast a spell" or "I use a magic item" without raising any eyebrows, but that's just extremely lazy and silly in my opinion.
Stick to the mundane unless you're a caster of some sort, and then kindly have the decency not to be archmage #582013872.

Saali wrote:Of course I'm asking that.
It'll just end up with "But my magic gunz is stronger than your magic armor - no u" arguments otherwise.

With magic being so common in WoW, every single obstacle can conveniently be solved with "I cast a spell" or "I use a magic item" without raising any eyebrows, but that's just extremely lazy and silly in my opinion.
Stick to the mundane unless you're a caster of some sort, and then kindly have the decency not to be archmage #582013872.

You're confusing being able to use your imagination creatively within the bounds of the game's setting with people using their imagination to exploit the game's setting and to hell with anyone else's fun. It's a case of irresponsible roleplay, rather than the subject mater of the roleplay being the cause of the problem itself. You've taken what I've said to it's extreme conclusion, but not everything is a case of extremes.

Take a walk in Stormwind. What I described seems to be fairly common there.