Thoughts on recent events to my character

There have risen some issues with how some make things in rp that are not reasonable and are meant to do kinda displeasing rp.

Like the situation with my character over a letter, with some rather bad comments which was due to a way a report was handled, which was a mistake, but nothing else.

I think first of all, that Senate & Council don't have real ic power to the matters that are connected to the game world. One can't just decide in Senate or Council to block trade, start an ic war between the nations, since that is just not what can be done ic, it is simply not in their power. Each kingdom has its ruler, and Council or Senate are not the same as the ruler or his counsel.

This is a real problem to my character, due to getting very bad rp in relation to it. Players wanting to use indirect means to get him off his position at Council, and claims about trade being blocked due to my character's actions. That is maybe nothing new, but should not be held as good rp.

So my comment is just, that our view on rp are differing a lot at this point with Senate and Council, and I only think that rivalry between guilds and senate and council are ongoing, which is not what I wanted or what I enjoy in rp.

I suggest, that people come to their senses, what is possible for them, rather than attack ic with claiming they can do things, that are not under their power, against my char, with an excuse.

Though war does not have anything. It has been time where IC relations between the two have been at almost a cold war state. Looking back at when the three hammers was the dwarf guild. It was pretty much a socialist state. Even before that I remember one of the old timers talk about the time Dwarven Rifle Squad went into the dwarven district and blocked it off.

THe problem with politics rp is. It's hard to see the lines between what is ok and not ok because if you take too little liberty there will be fuckall anyone can do, and if you do too much it can go off the hinges and take some stuff away that the king would realistically be dealing with and involved with. In terms of trade I don't see this as a too far fetched thing, as the Alliance seems to be more of a defensive alliance than trade. Granted they are trading with eachother there is nothing to stop one or more of these to slow down trade which is what is happening. There is no full stop in trade from what I've gathered.

You also chose to become minister, you chose to write that letter. It isn't very unrealistic that people would demonstrate how unpleased they are with this and want some sanctions put up to show their displeasure with this unconstructive insult.

The common understanding in what is allowed yes is rly difficult to get I have figured. Since there is too much rivalry rather than being constructive.

I simply see this kind of situation not bringing much good, since there are really better things ic to do.

You seem to have this odd way of thinking that any RP with negative emotions involved is bad somehow.
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Characters are meant to be like real people. With real emotions. Conflicts are not bad RP, they are amazing RP. Conflicts are when people actually get to show off their characters' opinions and stubbornness and a wide variety of other things that you rarely get to RP otherwise.

If you don't like RP with emotions involved, you need to start trying harder not to upset other people's characters.
"Actions have consequences" is like the first rule of RP.

Also it's very pointless to have a Minister of Trade if they cannot negotiate trade deals.

While I understand both points of view I am concerned when people are not enjoying what we have created.

This game and the roles we play that are of our own creation should be amusing and make us feel like we are part of a community.

Some clearly support Sir Reyxor to stay in his position, others don't. This would be great if it did not spill over into ooc comments: for example on the Argent Dawn (blizzard) forum about the cross realm rp.

My main concern is that people, including beginners, should find rp engaging and it should not come across as too cliquey: at least ooc. We have many new rpers on the realm, many feel uncomfortable approaching us because they see us as very negative people.

I understand that many enjoy the conflict, but it should be tempered with respect for the person or people behind the computer screen. At the moment that respect is not apparent.

Signed: The player behind the computer keyboard.

Webbles wrote:
"Actions have consequences" is like the first rule of RP.

Exactly this. Or how I have put it to you before, before all this happened in fact, "You reap what you sow".

Your character messed up. Simple. And Webbles post sums it all up... Pretty damn well I must admit.

Narin wrote:This would be great if it did not spill over into ooc comments: for example on the Argent Dawn (blizzard) forum about the cross realm rp.

I'm not going to comment more on this, but what was said on that thread had nothing to do with what is happening IC. That was because he was being dumb OOC.

Hey man, RP thrives on Drama, and for once, I'm not talking about inter-personal drama, i'm talking about Narrative Drama. I'm talking about conflict. That's the stuff what theater is made off, that's the stuff what makes things move.

You think The tragedy of Romeo and Juliet was going to be as interesting to still talk about and play, if the capulets and montagues weren't two families at each-others throats? No you'd just have two people in love living boring lives and growing old together (or not). It certainly wouldn't be a story about love that conquers all to the point that you cannot live without the other, and thus commit dual suicide due to an unfortunate mis-understanding.

Do you think Anakin would have become a jedi to eventually murder all the younglings and turn into darth vader, if the Trade federation had not been greedy bastards and decided to blockade Naboo?

Here's the thing, If you do not like to roleplay conflict between guilds and organizations, don't roleplay as a political figure because that's the entire point of politics. to generate RP through Conflict.

why is amaryl here

To... Make a very... Good point apparently.

Rhena wrote:why is amaryl here

Maybe I'm just stalking you Vivi. Maybe I'm just bored, maybe both.

OOC note = Rayxor please dont take it personal that I OOCly am attacking you in events happening , as pointed out above. Characters are role played out as people with emotions and aims/goals and ideals, also Drama is what makes role play, character clash of personality to full on IC hatred are all imho fair game to RP out as much as ally's / foes ...

Secondly, Action = consequence of action in role play, how engaging is it to RP against OOC immune bubbles when people do actions that would incite a reaction? dont know how many of you have crossed this but its rather unfun and unrealistic to expect people to not respond to your actions in character when the whole point of role play is to role play out how your character would react..

On the note of the positions in council /senate.. they i hate to say it to the people who dont think like this, but you was only there because of the acceptance of many.. the position is not just in the say of the holder to when he leaves it... i would imagine that would go for all Ministers/Councillors, you are voted out just as much as you are voted in

final note.. will i care OOC if rayxor has his minister position or not ? no.. i wont care as it OOCly means nothing to me.. however if your in political RP then accept my character will have an opinion on your position IC

I would like to apologize to Reyxor for how I wrote in (OOC) whispers some time ago, when I didn't want him to tell about the RP-PvP event during a Council-meeting. It was mean of me and not in my nature to do so, thus it felt rather horrible for some time after, and as I see in his post that it affected him too. I am sorry for this and I apologize in turn.

To return to the topic at hand however, I agree with what Azapha and Amaryl says here. Like it or not, drama has always been part of Defias Brotherhood, in one way or another. It is up to each and everyone of us to make the most of what we've got in terms of RP. If one cannot handle that actions have consequences, then that person should have picked another role to play. Do not expect any RP bubbles to work, because that is just mind-numbingly dull and noone will take that roleplayer seriously if they use such.

One example of action having consequences: A group from The Three Hammers IC'ly fled Ironforge back when TTH was crumbling, to help form the Clans of Khaz Modan (Clan warband-style RP) in time for when the split took place. We didn't use RP-bubbles to hide behind. Instead we attempted to use the IC and OOC drama, turmoil and strife that the split caused to further the cause of roleplay, to further evolve the background for our characters. Moving out from Ironforge to reclaim our respective clan home towns while something akin to a civil war was brewing within the city was a risky but wise move, safeguarding our own lives while things unravelled within TTH.

The warband concept as such was interesting even if it did not hold for long, BUT it was important that we did it nonetheless. It allowed us to continue progress with our stories and characters in a way that basically wasn't open to us previously. We did not hide away from what had been done, we accepted what was happening and embraced it.

I know I went off on a long tirade here again, I apologize for that. I just wish to demonstrate that drama isn't a bad thing for roleplay, and that a good roleplayer can make the most of it... even when supposedly at the wrong end of it.

Good points I see here. Trying to see the positive side of it really.

My complaint was only the blocking of trade not being ic possible for Senate imo. Maybe there is some trade agreement that can be broken ic, but just out of hat as a sanction, it sounded to me a bit of an overreaction.

I'm one who likes the rp to be realistic. Connected to the game world yes, but not in a way, my char would start to be breaking the game world matters. I can't make decisions roughly, where the King of SW has a say in, so there are borders on what can be done ic decision wise, maybe it sounds like a rp bubble, but that is in my opinion necessary to keep it realistic.

Some sort of power rp, there is to do with things no one can do in "real" world of warcraft, without that there would come consequenses from the game lore chars, like King. In this case the blocking of trade would be imo power rp, if the decision goes across what the ruler of Ironforge has a say in, and it also affects other players in a way, so it has some problematic sides. It all works, although, if Senate and Council has ic trade deals between each other, which don't necessarily affect the trade between kingdoms in grand scale, which the ruler has a say in. If there is not yet such Senate-Council trade deal, I think it should be created, for future purposes.

So I'd like to keep it as real as possible, and so that characters don't go over their own boundaries. Acting in accordance what would be possible in "real" world of warcraft, is what I'd like to have in rp. I'm not very drama friendly I can see that, and bubble in rp, some do have it and I think it's better than breaking it. Rp is very complex and different players have different approach, and they sometimes clash like in this case, it seems.

In general remembering the frames one is playing a character in would be a bit better imo, than for example in this case going full offense, which imo would be in "real" world of warcraft not very sound or possible, over such matter.

Reyxor - Urgual wrote:Good points I see here. Trying to see the positive side of it really.

My complaint was only the blocking of trade not being ic possible for Senate imo. Maybe there is some trade agreement that can be broken ic, but just out of hat as a sanction, it sounded to me a bit of an overreaction.

I'm one who likes the rp to be realistic. Connected to the game world yes, but not in a way, my char would start to be breaking the game world matters. I can't make decisions roughly, where the King of SW has a say in, so there are borders on what can be done ic decision wise, maybe it sounds like a rp bubble, but that is in my opinion necessary to keep it realistic.

Some sort of power rp, there is to do with things no one can do in "real" world of warcraft, without that there would come consequenses from the game lore chars, like King. In this case the blocking of trade would be imo power rp, if the decision goes across what the ruler of Ironforge has a say in, and it also affects other players in a way, so it has some problematic sides. It all works, although, if Senate and Council has ic trade deals between each other, which don't necessarily affect the trade between kingdoms in grand scale, which the ruler has a say in. If there is not yet such Senate-Council trade deal, I think it should be created, for future purposes.

To this all I can say is... If that really is your opinion, then you shouldn't be okay with the Council. Because pretty much if you wanted RP to be realistic, for the power plays and such to not happen... The Council would not exist. The Senate itself is in lore, granted, but the Council is not. And I'll go as far as to say if this is how you truly feel, that players shouldn't be able to make choices that would be made by lore characters (The King etc) then... You shouldn't really be okay with the Council or the Senate. As they do those things.

I will admit, that part of the Senate has bugged me of late and I'm going to try and get in talks with the Senate lot to work on that (heads up Cyrik) but that is my thing.

However the Council is not a lore thing for Stormwind, it's something made up by DB RPers. Which if it's just a guild council... Well, that'd be fine. But you have Ministers. Ministers who work for the city. Have jobs to work for the benefit of the city, lemme copy-paste the roles.

"Minister of Defense
The Minister of Defense now has responsibility for the complete military aspect of the Stormwind Council, replacing the previous ministers of War and Defense. The Minister of Defense is responsible for coordinating defense of the realm and campaigns of conquest made in His Majesty’s name. The Minister of Defense also coordinates with SI:7.

Reyxor Nightfall fall is currently serving as Minister of Defense
Deputy Minister of Defense: Jackloup

Minister of Magic
The Minister of Magic remains responsible for the magic related matters of the Stormwind Council, including relations with the Kirin Tor.

Rhena Oxley is currently serving as Minister of Magic.


Minister of Internal Affairs
The Minister of Internal Affairs is responsible for the spiritual, physical, cultural and psychological well being of the citizens His Majesty’s realm. The Ministry of Internal Affairs is responsible for the health, education and cultural prosperity of Stormwind citizens, effectively replacing the ministries of Health, Culture and Education. The Minister of Internal Affairs will also work closely with church representatives to ensure the spiritual well being of His Majesty’s subjects.

Flemk Meserath is currently serving as Minister of Internal Affairs

Minister of Foreign Affairs
The Minister of Foreign Affairs is the Stormwind Council's link to other nations and effectively works as a grand ambassador. The Minister of Foreign Affairs will be visiting political assemblies of allied nations to ensure good relations, bring back messages and voice concerns of the Kingdom of Stormwind during these assemblies.

Maelmoor Lightbringer is currently serving as Minister of Foreign Affairs.

Minister of Justice
As previously the Minister of Justice will be responsible for matters of law and justice. The Minister of Justice is tasked with drafting new laws and keeping the magistrate system functional.

Patrick John Hawthorne is currently serving as Minister of Justice.

Minister of Trade
The Minister of Trade retains its previous areas of responsibility and is as such responsible for matters of commerce and trade. "

Now can you see the issue with what you say you want and what is happening here?

As Minister of War you, Reyxor, control the Military Forces of "the Stormwind Council" (which is either a fancy way of saying all guilds around the table or the Military Forces of Stormwind, or both) on top of being "responsible for coordinating defense of the realm and campaigns of conquest made in His Majesty’s name". Which is to say, you lead the Military shit for the King in defence and in campaign. On top of that you are in talks with SI:7. That's ALOT of "power RP" for a single player, isn't it? And that isn't even going into the thread that details your job description! (where, I might add, it points out you CAN recommend someone to become an officer... To the King himself).

MoT? Handles trade for Stormwind.

MoJ? Handles the LAWS in Stormwind. Which is arguably the most powerful role since they can actively change the laws as they'd like... Unless the Council votes over it of course (because apparently the Council speak for the King, as the MoJ messes with the Kings' laws, totally)

Hell MoFA outright STATES it is the "grand ambassador" for the "Stormwind Council" and is the "voice of Stormwind concerns"... Again, kinda a lot of power there.

Now I didn't mean for this to sound accusatory when I started writing and more a comment on how... Well, power RP is already alive and well in Stormwind and you're part of the problem, it's called the Stormwind Council.

And it's alive and well in Ironforge too with the Senate... Which I do find leaves a bad taste in my mouth and I'd like to work on ways to annul this as I've stated prior here, without compromising the core point of the whole deal (which is to say, a group of people making events for the community... Based in Ironforge)

But we're past that now so I'm gonna end it rather aggressively and say "Before you comment on power RP, look in the mirror."

^ Seb points it out quite clearly here. The problem is how to rp a governing body without having the power there, which in my opinion is quite impossible and frankly impractical. At that point one might just make the council a guild thing. A sort of coalition or something, with possible elected roles for the members. For example, minister of defence could be turned into an war-effort coordinator or something of the likes.

This idea would make it hard to do law stuff though.

Which is why for many years people have pointed out its better to just dismantle the council altogether. It's always been a bit of a clusterfuck in its current form.

It actually was originally a council of all the guild masters/officers in the human guilds way back in vanilla anyway afaik

These arguements pop up now and then, most of the times from people who are no longer involved in our community or Carriers personal reasons for their dislike to the Council.

In the end what matters is that the Council (and Senate) provides lot of RP, something we should encourage rather than try to remove, not only that but over the years hundreds of players have been introduced to RP through these sessions, it's an event that gets the community together (with all SW Guilds represented) on a regular basis and is something a lot of people enjoy, that is what matters in the end

Maelmoor wrote:These arguements pop up now and then, most of the times from people who are no longer involved in our community or Carriers personal reasons for their dislike to the Council.

In the end what matters is that the Council (and Senate) provides lot of RP, something we should encourage rather than try to remove, not only that but over the years hundreds of players have been introduced to RP through these sessions, it's an event that gets the community together (with all SW Guilds represented) on a regular basis and is something a lot of people enjoy, that is what matters in the end

Considering this whole Reyxor thing is the most RP the "Council" has provided for the past few months and it came about with no intent regarding it on Reyxor's half I'd say you're failing at the providing RP side of things. Yore does more off their own back than the Council does and they have raiding and RBG days throughout the week (and personal RP storylines to focus on).

Is the Senate doing much better? Eh, not really. Azapha is working on their own event chain, we have the Fire Festival (which I hesitate to include) on Monday and I personally need to get off my butt and start talking with the Horde about future RP-PvP storylines. Slow going but... What has the Council done lately that didn't involve this whole business that created this thread to begin with? And don't say Yores Fire Festival thing, that was their own thing and not a Council event.

Or Flemk for that matter with their Stranglethorn thing, again that was something off their back which unless they're gonna correct me right now(relatively) and say they had more input than just from their own guild and their own doing from the Council with the event then... I don't see how it is a Council event, I believe Flem would've done it without the Council and still invited the community to join along.

And a lot of people enjoy, really? What do you base this on, do you ask them? Or just presuming so because people show up? Because who is to say they aren't just showing up, alt-tabbing and watching youtube (or just chatting with people on Discord and not really paying attention to the Council itself)

Oh and since I've name-dropped Yore and Flemk here. These are people that seem to actually want to do stuff for the community, they are the ones who I could say BELONG on the Council. The rest of you, IC and even OOC for some of them around that table? Yeah... Not so much.

Hutchins wrote:

Maelmoor wrote:These arguements pop up now and then, most of the times from people who are no longer involved in our community or Carriers personal reasons for their dislike to the Council.

In the end what matters is that the Council (and Senate) provides lot of RP, something we should encourage rather than try to remove, not only that but over the years hundreds of players have been introduced to RP through these sessions, it's an event that gets the community together (with all SW Guilds represented) on a regular basis and is something a lot of people enjoy, that is what matters in the end

Considering this whole Reyxor thing is the most RP the "Council" has provided for the past few months and it came about with no intent regarding it on Reyxor's half I'd say you're failing at the providing RP side of things. Yore does more off their own back than the Council does and they have raiding and RBG days throughout the week (and personal RP storylines to focus on).

Is the Senate doing much better? Eh, not really. Azapha is working on their own event chain, we have the Fire Festival (which I hesitate to include) on Monday and I personally need to get off my butt and start talking with the Horde about future RP-PvP storylines. Slow going but... What has the Council done lately that didn't involve this whole business that created this thread to begin with? And don't say Yores Fire Festival thing, that was their own thing and not a Council event.

Or Flemk for that matter with their Stranglethorn thing, again that was something off their back which unless they're gonna correct me right now(relatively) and say they had more input than just from their own guild and their own doing from the Council with the event then... I don't see how it is a Council event, I believe Flem would've done it without the Council and still invited the community to join along.

And a lot of people enjoy, really? What do you base this on, do you ask them? Or just presuming so because people show up? Because who is to say they aren't just showing up, alt-tabbing and watching youtube (or just chatting with people on Discord and not really paying attention to the Council itself)

Oh and since I've name-dropped Yore and Flemk here. These are people that seem to actually want to do stuff for the community, they are the ones who I could say BELONG on the Council. The rest of you, IC and even OOC for some of them around that table? Yeah... Not so much.

We have vastly different opinions, nothing new there and neither will convince the other so it won't lead to anything good.

I RP cause it's fun, if an event doesn't interest me, then I don't go but even for those who doesn't enjoy RP you can come and get some IC updates of what is happening. I don't see the point in competing in who does what and how much, that I leave for others.

Maelmoor will NEVER be convinced. The council is his baby and he'll go down with it to his dying breath.

Instead of gnawing on others, try to do something that is enjoyable, positive and why not fun, in a way that all have it too.

Mentality in the ongoing "plot" has lacked those recently.

My armour has gotten wet from drooling recently and it can be cleansed so no harm done there. But the trying has been hard from Senate part. Like I'm a public gnawing bone for their rp hunger. I won't mention that the gnawing is very widespread too almost tempted to mention part of Council along with it. Dammit next time need the pile of bones for all of them, who like to try and taste me.

Maybe people at Senate are too bored to bring any sort of will to cooperate, just plainly saying the boredom is spreading.

Just the typical slander for slander I had in this post. Bored.

I'm not sure if this is still the case but:

Having a Public event for everyone to attend and put his two cents is, every single week is generating RP by definition. Even if they didn't do more.

I do find it interresting to see this exact discussion again and again. The result being: The council gets disbanded, or turned into something else, and after a month the people that changed it, stop having the weekly event. and the new initiative is gone, and the council returns alive and kicking because they can manage to atleast have one hour a week of political roleplaying. every week, for the past 11 years. That's nothing to be scoffed at.

I say this as someone who has always been against the council on principle, but accepting and working with it because it generates RP.

Amaryl wrote:I'm not sure if this is still the case but:

Having a Public event for everyone to attend and put his two cents is, every single week is generating RP by definition. Even if they didn't do more.

I do find it interresting to see this exact discussion again and again. The result being: The council gets disbanded, or turned into something else, and after a month the people that changed it, stop having the weekly event. and the new initiative is gone, and the council returns alive and kicking because they can manage to atleast have one hour a week of political roleplaying. every week, for the past 11 years. That's nothing to be scoffed at.

I say this as someone who has always been against the council on principle, but accepting and working with it because it generates RP.

I agree and disagree with you at different points

Firstly an event that has managed to be maintained in this realm for 11 years. yeah thats nothing to scoff at and no questioning the fact it has held its glue together though everything it has seen in 11 years

Secondly is it the same council it was 11 years ago? because from what I have to go on, the council was a very different beast earlier in its days and the whole reason that ministers have this authority in there wording of there role is because its earlier days saw it more accepted it was actually the law of the city in it self and had king given authority.

From what I see the council has clearly clung onto changes as people have put in these initiatives. Ministers are simply a relic of the older system that fall into that gray area of people are too scared to say are given power by the king but have power akin to one who is "on paper".

since when did age of something ever have to do with how good something is or is doing in the present. Disciples of Light are one of the oldest guilds on the realm, i would not call it "buried" but they are not the active guild they have been before, HoY is easily among the most active of guilds and succeeding imho for what it does and is one of the youngest guilds on the realm better than most others are.

my ten cent, the council will change, weather it be now or in the future

Rayxor, to you on the point of being bored. Actually no, we looked at your letter and oocly we knew you made a bad move, but ICly you was at the time the Minister of Defence (re-read what it says your job is) which means your a guy who ICly should be taken DAMN seriously, sending a letter saying you will have us questioned for treason unless we do X.

Putting it all together Ray, we ICly accepted that we would at least be suspended from our position when we presented this to the three hammers, the Minister who helps orchestrate attacks for Stormwind just accused a number of the Senators of Treason on paper, i dont see a over reaction from our end like you do it seems.