Gnomes and faith

Anaei/Vezullia wrote:Any race can control and use the light. YOu just require the will to do it.

Don't forget you need to be a virtuous individual OR think the purpose you use the Light for is good.

Nathinios spots Jazzles post
Nathinios casts facepalm.
Facepalm crits Nathinios for 150000 damage!
Nathinios has died!

I'm going to right a more coherenty reply to that when I get home. Now I have to peel my face off my hand.

*Glares at Nathinios*
*Continues to glare*

A worthy advesary, I see! Well... I'll have to equip the Hat of Logic.

*Casts Concrete Evidence*
*Reflects of Nathinios's Religion Shield*
*Sad face*

Don't worry Jazzle. I'm an atheist. I'm just going to point out why it's silly to run around and claim "GODS DO NOT EXIIIIIIIIIIISSSSSTTTTTTTTTT!!!!!!" in a fantasy world when their presence is duly felt daily for plenty of people.

Damn it! I'm not saying GOD'S DON'T EXIST in WoW, I'm saying that it's stupid to have faith in them if they do exist!

Faith = Believing in something without evidence.
Gods in WoW = evidence that they exist.

Thus, faith in said Gods would be obsilete, would it not? D:

You can still have faith in something even though you know it exists.

Example: I have fatih in that my bro' will be a cool guy, because thats what he is.

They are not mutually exclusive.

The Babel Fish argument proves otherwise. *Nods*

Just for arguements sake, If I was in Azeroth. I'd be very into the whole god thing, IRL? Not so much.. When God starts breaking the world in half. maybe..

Babelfish argument?

Aaaaaah, Nath, never read Hitchiker's Guide to the Galaxy?! Oooh, you're missing out...

"Babel fish:

The Babel Fish is small, yellow, leech-like, and is a universal translator which simultaneously translates from one spoken language to another. It takes the brainwaves of the other body and what they are thinking then transmits the thoughts to the speech centers of the hosts brain, the speech heard by the ear decodes the brainwave matrix. When inserted into the ear, its nutrition processes convert sound waves into brain waves, neatly crossing the language divide between any species you should happen to meet whilst traveling in space. Meanwhile, the poor Babel fish, by effectively removing all barriers to communication between different races and cultures, has caused more and bloodier wars than anything else in the history of creation.[1] Arthur Dent, a surviving Earthling, commented only 'Eurgh!' when first inserting the fish into his ear canal. It did, however, enable him to understand Vogon Poetry - not necessarily a good thing. The book points out that the Babel Fish could not possibly have developed naturally, and therefore proves the existence of God as its creator. However, as Man points out, God needs faith to exist, and this proof dispels the need for faith, therefore causing God to vanish in a puff of logic. Then Man says, "my, that was easy" and goes on to prove that black is white, and gets killed on the next zebra crossing."

The Light is perhaps dressed up as a christianity-like religion, but it has more in common with gnostiscism, buddhism, confusianism or taoism (the two former more than the two latter). It is also suprisingly deep for a fictional religion, despite it's simplicity.

It is about devoting yourself to a very specific way of life, a way of altruism and improving the world. That through the three virtues (which should be mastered in order) learning how to be a better person and ultimately becoming one with the Light itself, the cosmic semi-divine force that exist in and between us all.

It is a religion of extreme discipline, rationality and charity. Originally, the only way to attain the powers themselves was actually mastering (or living according to) the three virtues (but since the blood elven plot and Sir Zeliek, that has become a bit more muddled and confusing).

As such I don't see why it wouldn't be applicable or illogical for gnomes. They are a hard working, inquisitive people that are very individualistic and want to improve the world. The religion essentially fits them like a glove (and both humans and dwarves, their main non-gnome contacts worship it. It would bleed through over the course of time)

The Light (Human theology) cannot be quelled by any Atheist, you cannot disprove the existance of a FORCE that clearly just healed your shot wound without any sort of 'technology'.

Faith, is different, you may or may not practice the virtues of the Holy Light but the actual force, you might aswell go stare at a brick wall and say it doesn't exist.

Also when looking at the Holy Light (religion not force), you can hardly state that anything it says are wrong. Unlike RL religion which may or may not have questionable tenants.

Gnomes could easily see the Light as:

A. A FORCE of the world akin to the Arcane that deserves attention, respect, study and use.

B. A RELIGION that, like the Dwarves and the Humans have formed/worshiped has alot of merit and worth in studing and using.

----

Also, don't diss real life religion, it's a perfectly fine organization that you cannot disprove the satisfaction of. I'm perfectly fine with Atheists, but I don't like the ones that state that God is silly or something of the likes. Personally, Agnostic, I feel that God or anything like it is something that cannot be disproved or proved.

Epistemic distance anyone?

Faith is something that someone can have, yet someone else doesn't. It doesn't require some science nerd denouncing it simply because he cannot comprehend the idea of something that his simple, human, mind cannot understand.

Who the fuck are we to say that something greater doesn't exist?

---

Sorry...

Can I just stop you both there? You have every right to believe what you want in real life, but don't push it onto other people. So stop this stupid arguement and stick on topic.

I don't think I ever implied the Light doesn't exist. I merely stated that having faith in something already proven is folly.

I'm not even going to comment on the rest of your statement.

And yes, Anaei, my apologies.

I would -love- to debate with you about religion Jazzle, we have done it so many times in the past...

I agree, this thread isn't the place for it though.

Ontopic, Gnomes can believe in what they want...ENDGAME BRO!

Nyg, we should so piss off theVanguard with another 3 hour debate...

...Yeeeeah.

It's my fault really, as an Agnostic, I feel the need to argue against atheists and theists! :<

Well, the ones that try to shove their views down your throats anyhow...*glares at Jazzle*

Hey, I don't try and shove it down your throat!

...I try to cut you open, and then inseminate it inside you...

ON TOPIC! STICK TO IT

Maybe a gnome noticed that machinery behaves slightly different near high concentrations of Light usage?

That's quite plausible, I suppose.

Energy waves could manipulate like, electron flows and stuff. However, I think Gnomes will be more of a mix between Dwarf Priests and Gnome Mages. They appreciate the power, but also accept the thesis.

Anaei's shouting at me has made my balls shoot back into my body, so I'm just gonna go ahead and agree that the Gnomes can be priests if they want.

Well, imagine a gnome encountering a paladin using the Light. Do you think he will:

A. Be convinced it's all exactly like the paladin explains and start praying to this unknown force that provides the paladin his powers?

B. Try understand what this power is, how the prayer is necessery and if there are other ways to access and use it.

If I understand anything of gnomes, they will always choose B, simply because that's the way they think. If they see something new and shiny, they'll try find out whatever they can about it, they won't be like human believers, content with praying and not knowing exactly what it is (or believing you know what it is without any logical or empirical backup).

If the gnomes will start gaining the Light like humans instead of tapping it like blood elves, I think they won't do it like humans with prayers and churches, they'll get it through doing what they think is best, and that's not the human virtues but the virtues they use themselves: ingenuity and friendship.

B. sounds awesome.
I wonder what happens if I... *divine storms*

I do have to agree with Muspel on the fact that most gnomes are probably more concerned about how things work and how they can make them work better than anything else really.

...Muspel's summed up what I've been trying to say for 3 pages, but he just said it better and less insulting than me...

Kudos to that Gnome. I'll miss him when he dies...

Now you people know why Nygarth and the topic of Religion need to be kept -well- apart!