Hellscream's eyes are upon you!

There was a Kor'kron-themed guild a while back, but it seemed to be more of an PvE/P than actual RP. It's simply been a bit unrepresented, as it so far has only been represented by a few individual RPers. Though the RP itself doesn't suit my main, the way I've been trying to express the changing atmospheres is simply by trying to make references to the quasi-martial law in Orgrimmar during my RP, as to at least give the impression not everything's all fine and dandy. It's fun to pop by on my Kor'kron alt every now and then to kick some stones around, but due to my lack of time I haven't been able to properly RP him out either (not to mention most people would just be inclined to scoff him off instead of taking him seriously, as he's on his own).

The Kor'kron have my permission to beat the shit out of Abulos if he steps out of line (which will probably be most of the time ).

Kozgugore Feraleye wrote:(not to mention most people would just be inclined to scoff him off instead of taking him seriously, as he's on his own).

En here-in lies the biggest problem. If the community as a whole is not willing to recognize the Kor'kron, they won't be.

Could they perhaps sport a big ass guild tag over their heads saying Kor'Kron or something? To make it a wee easier for the community to easiley reckognise the legitimity of one, and not disregarding them as a drunk clown.

I would join such a guild, immediately.

The problem is no one likes Garrosh OOC... I know this shouldn't influence RP, but it does.
I'm trying to encourage the Marauders to keep their mouths firmly shut IC with regards to Garrosh to try to represent the whole secret police thing, but if I'm honest it isn't working.

Garrosh is, unfortunately, and in my opinion, such an intensely crap character it is genuinely hard to enforce fear and respect in him IC.

Also, Jahz, with regards to the two Kor'Kron RP'ers last night. They're lolbois and idiots and were on the /ignore list of a few Marauders from ages past where they trolled us in Ratchet.
Its hard to act appropriately IC when you know that about people OOC.

I'd love a proper, dedicated Kor'Kron guild to enforce fear in the Horde RP guilds. They'd need to be a proper guild though. I dont think a guild of alts would work as it just wouldn't saturate the RP enough, nor have the staying power required to be truly badass.
Personally, I'm not up for it. I've got enough on my plate RPing Grim in the Marauders! This being said, I'd support it if I could and would love to see it happen.

One last thing before I forget. I really think we should tread carefully with regards to Kor'Kron RP. They're not omnipotent and they won't just suddenly turn up in the middle of nowhere on a whim. I'd dread the concept of guilds happily RPing away miles from anywhere and then BOOM, the Kor'Kron appear like the Spanish Inquisition from Monty Python.

Krogon's gonna resist all this so bad x_ x''

I'm fine with it as long as it doesn't get filled with complete jokers that constantly burp into your face and abuse their power due to OOC purposes to throw jack shit at people, which I've seen loads of times.

And what Grim said.

That picture is both awesome and exactly what I'm worried about!

NOBODY EXPECTS THE KOR'KRON INQUISITION!!!!

Shall I say it?

I'd dread the concept of guilds happily RPing away miles from anywhere and then BOOM, the Kor'Kron appear like the Spanish Inquisition from Monty Python.

Well, no one would expect that....

I agree they should not just show up out of nowhere, they need some IC basis and knowledge to show up.

I agree they should not just show up out of nowhere, they need some IC basis and knowledge to show up..

Exactly. They shouldn't be able to sniff out treachery from 10,000 miles.

"My spider-sense is tingling. An elf just dissed Hellscream over in Winterspring! KOR'KRON AWAY!"

/shudder

Grim wrote:

I agree they should not just show up out of nowhere, they need some IC basis and knowledge to show up..

Exactly. They shouldn't be able to sniff out treachery from 10,000 miles.

"My spider-sense is tingling. An elf just dissed Hellscream over in Winterspring! KOR'KRON AWAY!"

/shudder

That made me laugh so hard

Almost wish I had an Orc to get into something like this

Grim wrote:Garrosh is, unfortunately, and in my opinion, such an intensely crap character it is genuinely hard to enforce fear and respect in him IC.

I think the real issue is close to this. Ideally we should have a close to even split, but it's nowhere near that. Why?

Primarily, it's that Garrosh and the Kor'kron have suffered from schizophrenic characterisation. I've always RPed Sadok as pro-Garrosh, but not as a hardline extremist - he regrets the moderate peace-mongering of the Thrall years, wants ruthless border defense and envisages the Horde as a brutal but principled warrior-culture where strength and honor are held in equal regard. This meshes well with Garrosh's Ashenvale and Stonetalon appearances - he is ruthless, but nonetheless seems driven by some form of personal moral compass (even if warped/xenophobic). We can understand Garrosh in these appearances - he has motivations, and while we may not agree with him, we at least understand his motivation.

Unfortunately, the extent of 'for the evils' we've seen in recent Kor'kron portrayals (demons, paranoia, disproportionate cruelty) reduces the dynamic to 'good guys' vs 'orphan-bombing murderers'. Garrosh's motives and principles appear to have wholly evaporated into a generic bloodlust, yet none of his actions seem to have a clear end-goal beyond 'kill everything forever'.

Indeed, the true conflict between Thrall and Garrosh's Horde should arguably be whether the end justifies the means. Theramore is a watershed moment in this dynamic - the mana bomb is ethically abhorrent, but the potency of Theramore's threat to the Horde can very understandably justify the means. Unfortunately, the descent into generic chaotic-evil on the Kor'kron means the end has even been lost. They're evil 'just because', and that leaves us unable to understand or sympathise with the Hellscream camp.

Thus however Hellscream-aligned my character may be in theory, the extent of this inexplicable 'evil for evil's sake' is causing him to identify prematurely with the Thrall camp, despite the vast differences of opinion he has. Hellscream and his Kor'kron are being depicted as so unfathomably evil that where there should be a divide down the middle of the Horde, the only characters left in the Kor'kron camp are sadists, warlocks and self-serving politicians.

That I think is the issue - where we should be given a choice between moderates and well-intentioned extremists (something that likely would divide the Horde equally), we're left with 'normal people' and batshit-insane sociopaths. We're given no real reason to identify with the Hellscream camp, and so unfortunately there are few people willing to RP such.

The thing is though, to play out the Kor'kron you don't have to side with them. It's perfectly acceptable that everyone takes Thralls side; That's where WoW's player-narrative is taking us, as well.

What shames me is that these players do not seem to be willing to recognize the danger of siding with Trall in what is essentially a totalitarian, Nazi-like regime.

The problem here is not a lack of Kor'kron role-players, the problem is horde role-players not recognizing the current climate of the horde.

To speak up against the Kor'kron is to invite a beating.
To just blatantly go against them systematically is to invite death.

This could lead to brilliant role-play. But it's just not happening.

The fact that Sadok, a harsh-horde person, is being swayed to support Thrall is alright. That is the narrative Blizzard is feeding us; that is what's "supposed" to happen.

Just like it made sense for my goblin character Delidah to go Kor'kron extremist, the ideas of this "new horde" fall right into her mindset. Victory at any cost, (magi)technological advances, weapons of mass destruction. That's her game, that's always been her game.

My problem, and this comes directly from me RP'ing a Blademaster, is that krogon fundamently cant like Garrosh. according to certain lore sources, The Blademasters are oath sworn and forever loyal to Thrall, acting as his personal honor guard and 'hands'. They did his bidding, fighting where the battle was most desperate, acting as diplomats or barking to keep minor chieftains and warlords in line. Strictly opposed to the corruption of the orcish race and sworn to battling the fel..

BUT... as we've seen in domination point, Garrosh clearly has the Blademasters under his control and command. This left me with a "...whaaa?" moment. but as i learned, he apparently (and i'l not spoil it) disposes of a Blademaster to further his own goals.

So what do i do? oppose the Warchief when seemingly so many of Krogon's kind follow him, or stay loyal to thrall as per lore?

but fundamentaly, krogon just cant stand Garrosh. He set loose the warlocks from the drag that the blademasters had so vigilanty kept on a leash, he rampages across azeroth on some crusade in a war that ultimately has no purpose, and soon as we will all learn, he will abuse dark powers.

Whats an Orc to do? fall in line, or resist?

I dunno if I agree Jahz.

To speak up against the Kor'kron is to invite a beating.
To just blatantly go against them systematically is to invite death.

This could lead to brilliant role-play. But it's just not happening.

This could just as easily lead to lots of terrible RP where a small core of people who want to RP as Kor'Kron just act like dicks and everyone has to take it.
Especially as this is the Horde, not the pansy Alliance. The result of treachery is death.
Who wants that though? For potentially breathing out of line your character may be subject to summary execution.
Very realistic? Yes.
Fun? No.

In my mind the Kor'Kron should be a divided force. Some view themselves as the elite of the Horde, as Hellscream's bodyguard and the enforcers of the Horde's will - an honourable and noble task.
Others view the Kor'Kron as an opportunity to take advantage of Garrosh's mania and to hurt people, make money, grab power etc.

What we're getting though is bully-boys with no brains behind them.

As soon as Kor'Kron RPers appear who willingly RP the shades of grey implicit in the Kor'Kron currently then I'll jump on the chance to get involved.
High politics, power plays, assassinations, people disappearing. All fun and balanced with an understanding that nothing is as simple as it looks.

A bunch of guys in Kor'Kron RP gear punching people and being rude IC and occasionly killing elves for the sheer hell of it is just shit though.

erwtenpeller wrote:
What shames me is that these players do not seem to be willing to recognize the danger of siding with Trall in what is essentially a totalitarian, Nazi-like regime.
...
The fact that Sadok, a harsh-horde person, is being swayed to support Thrall is alright. That is the narrative Blizzard is feeding us; that is what's "supposed" to happen.

And yet Hellscream is depicted as a genuinely popular leader in the likes of Tides of War - the Kor'kron may strike from the shadows at vocal critics, but for the most part, many do genuinely believe Garrosh is doing the right thing for the Horde. The Horde may be totalitarian, but it has unwittingly sleepwalked into this regime, and the transition should be considerably more subtle. Indeed, the Horde rebellion should be something that slowly and gradually builds momentum until the Siege patch, possibly as a result of several moral event horizons.

But the change has been too severe, too quickly. The implications of this breakdown of identification with Hellscream's camp has forced various strata in the Horde into a 'good' vs 'evil' dynamic before these moral event horizons have even occured, and thus already precipitated the conditions for rebellion far too early.

This is the issue with Kor'kron RP - they should ideally focus on key critics, with everyone else supporting the Horde because they have been given no reason to rebel. This works well ICly and OOCly (because one small guild or group cannot hope to watch everyone always, but can choose important targets). Yet because the Hellscream camp are depicted as so overlty authoritarian, there is no subtle transition and it's glaringly obvious that the Kor'kron are openly evil - thus it comes as no surprise that the majority have sided against Garrosh, however implicitly.

The whole point of secret-police is to be secret, but if the cat's out of the bag, you can't blame someone for being wary around a transparently evil organisation. I do think it's patently ridiculous to walk around (for example) Orgrimmar badmouthing Garrosh, but I haven't exactly seen that either.

ICly, you could hate Garrosh and everything he stands for - I, personally, think he is a brilliant character. He is ruthless, dangerous and down right Orcish! He has descended into paranoia and that is the cause of his bloodlust. Thrall was inspired by Planet of the Ape's caesar, where as Garrosh seems more like that crooked, ugly one! Be smart about it, they aren't just evil 'because'. They're evil because Garrosh has become power hungry, paranoid and wants to rule with fear. Now, picture yourself as part of the chosen elite Kor'kron. Arrogance is potent when you're set above others. Yes, it is cliché, but most of WoW is - you can easily relate around it!

It is good to hate him, just not so openly. Doing that would cost your life and people that RP like that ruin immersion IMO, as you can't metagame the Kor'kron coming down on them like a hailstorm. You need to be subtle. Insult Garrosh when no Korkies are about, but when they're there, do not falter your loyalty. You don't need to brown nose, just be sensible. Think like your character: take Orb for example. You wouldn't want to be responsible for the Kork suddenly being paranoid of your clan, nor would you want to be killed by your superiors.

If they did routine checks, that'd be fine. Showing up because OOCly they know someone has stood against Garrosh is bad form.

Drogu supported Garrosh because it meant superiority for the Orcs. He wanted to see all other races as slaves to the mightiest of races. This isn't unbelievable, people in real life want to see the white man as superior. It is twisted and wrong, but still exists.

You're a supporter of the Horde but you hate Garrosh. You can't openly say that with risk of being killed or a revolt because a civil war in the Horde could mean the Alliance takes the upper hand and you're dead anyway. What do you do? I envy the Horde's position.

Fun? No.

I don't understand this point. If they throw it in your face consistently, it wouldn't be fun, but that doesn't seem to be what the Kor'kron are like. They don't try and provoke other Orcs, they just watch them. Like a bouncer at a nightclub, just waiting to find an opportunity to throw someone out. You need to watch what you say around them, that's all! Which is great role-play.

Once you guys figure out how to make the rest feel fear for the Kor'kron, please share. The Thalassian Thought police wouldn't mind some tips for the mindwiping.

I don't understand this point. If they throw it in your face consistently, it wouldn't be fun, but that doesn't seem to be what the Kor'kron are like. They don't try and provoke other Orcs, they just watch them. Like a bouncer at a nightclub, just waiting to find an opportunity to throw someone out. You need to watch what you say around them, that's all! Which is great role-play..

My point is the only Kor'Kron RPers we've encountered who weren't plot-specific alts were exactly the opposite of what you're saying. They have thrown it in people's faces.
Needlessly provocative and insulting, hoping people would bite so they could hurt them.
I totally agree that properly done Kor'Kron RP would be fantastic. I'm just saying that a) to do it properly will be tougher than people may assume and b) the people I've seen try it so far have been utterly rubbish.
((Not including Delidah in that Jahz. The crazy little gobbo is just fine))

Where-ever this discussion leads, if anyone ends up erecting some sort of Kor'kron initiative, my character Delidah is yours.

If not, her antics will remain mostly in-guild story-lines, as they are now.

Grim wrote:

I don't understand this point. If they throw it in your face consistently, it wouldn't be fun, but that doesn't seem to be what the Kor'kron are like. They don't try and provoke other Orcs, they just watch them. Like a bouncer at a nightclub, just waiting to find an opportunity to throw someone out. You need to watch what you say around them, that's all! Which is great role-play..

My point is the only Kor'Kron RPers we've encountered who weren't plot-specific alts were exactly the opposite of what you're saying. They have thrown it in people's faces.
Needlessly provocative and insulting, hoping people would bite so they could hurt them.
I totally agree that properly done Kor'Kron RP would be fantastic. I'm just saying that a) to do it properly will be tougher than people may assume and b) the people I've seen try it so far have been utterly rubbish.
((Not including Delidah in that Jahz. The crazy little gobbo is just fine))

If that is the case, then wouldn't those Kor'Kron be punished? It needs to work both ways, I totally agree with you. Kor'Kron who antagonise their allies should be punished because they are not ordered to do so. They're there to keep order and make sure everyone gives a thumbs up to Garrosh!

Well, a problem is that they need to have that "fearful authority" right away. People need to act that "there is a Kor'kron that could report you to the Warchief himself", which most of the community knows you can't. Hence they need other ways to be dominant.

So stuff like this needs to be somewhat coördinated and recognised... like what happens here.