Violence is dangerous - a resource

Well Tashun, if you want the Stormwind city guards to lower their level of violence and follow my suggestions more. Then I'm afraid you'll have to rally the criminal population and collectively give them a reason to do so. You have to treat the guards as insanely dangerous... make fights really rare and special.
That the moment you spot a guard you drop what you're doing and run, the moment there's two of them you surrender. That you take care and avoid being seen.
If you do fight a guard you have to blindside him/her if he/she has a gun or outnumber him if he has a melee weapon (and the tactic you use is to trap his weapon and lock his arms down).

Alternatively you just tell them ooc in a whisper that you intend to use this post as a guide for violence and would appriciate if they returned the favour. That's probably more effective (in the short term)

People need to understand that 90% of emote-fighting is based on provoking, threatening and insulting others' mums. The punch-up itself is not the core, it's just the proper ending.

Aye. The main rule we have is; The more voilent you are, the more voilent we are.

Be calm and nice, we're calm and nice. Insult us, we insult (and beat) you. Surrender, and have a big chance you'll be released early (or instantly, usually). Resist arrest and you are 100% guilty. Act with respect and politeness IC and OOC and big chance we'll shut an eye and let you walk.

A decent write-up.

But I feel you ommited some things.

amongst others, stress, and the effects of it. before, during and after a battle. the normal saying; what must go up, must go down. like with adrenaline. sure you can get a tempory boost, but when your body relaxes it tanks tremendously.

secondly, Why in a world of magic and explosions did you completely leave out the effects of shockwaves? heck, most people don't die from the explosion itself unless you're very close, but from the result air dispersal.

and thirdly, there are two types of mail. the cheap version that are simply the rings knit to eachother. but there's another one where the rings are nailed in certain structure.

the difference here is that the nailed version doesn't "break" when it gets thrusted into. the rings don't shatter/break. now good arrows from high pound bows will still pierce it. but a decent thrust by a dagger or suitable thrusting blade will not shatter the mail, and thus will only penetrate slightly through the mail and probably be stopped by the layers beneath it.
the difference is that the nailed version takes 10 times longer to make. and is thus vastly more expensive.

What you said about magic is inspired. Even in game mechanics, mages spend most of their time running away. Our spells slow and inconvenience and as you said unless we send fifty fireballs at once, I doubt you are going to catch a blaze.

Aye, Anaei. I always imagined the mage to be a "cannon". A slow character capable of turning the tide of massive battles with spells that attack alot of people at the same time, a slow character though, that would not be able to fight well in 1v1 situations.

Like a mage standing, defended by warriors, channeling a -huge- boulder of fire or something, but is weak and needs time to cast their spells, but has the power to turn the tide of a war.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:Aye, Anaei. I always imagined the mage to be a "cannon". A slow character capable of turning the tide of massive battles with spells that attack alot of people at the same time, a slow character though, that would not be able to fight well in 1v1 situations.

Like a mage standing, defended by warriors, channeling a -huge- boulder of fire or something, but is weak and needs time to cast their spells, but has the power to turn the tide of a war.

Vezullia's main defense is to prop up a wee mirror image and teleport away. I hate magical confrontations. xD

First of all, thank you Amaryl. You bring up some good points.

I omitted things about adrenaline, stress and shockwaves because I wanted to keep it reasonably simple and not too difficult to apply to roleplaying. Adrenaline is a very difficult thing to predict and exactly how it affects the body during the stress of combat is not prefectly understood medically.
In the same fashion, shockwaves are also very unpredictable. Yes, it is one of the most deadly things about explosives and yes, spellcasters probably make use of it in their spells. But shockwaves are fickle to describe physically and there have been cases where shockwaves should have killed people, but they just stood there unhurt.

Regarding the mail however, the rings in rings (known as rivetted mail) being weak is actually a myth as far as I've understood. Partially created by Victorian historians and poorly made modern replicas.
It's in fact the only sort of mail that has been found from the middle ages (and earlier).
It's often as many as 8 to 12 rings in one, so they're fairly tight and rigid. They will need repairs after any form of decent battle yes. But that was a fact of life that everyone expected. Just like that shields were often discarded after use and swords were often replaced.

However, if you refer to that maille was often combined with other types of armour, then yes. It was. During the crusades, the french (the crusaders were almost exclusively french)quickly learned to sow quilted armour on both sides of their maille, creating the brigandine. Which made them practically invurnerable to arrows and blades (the cloth stopped the arrows, and the maille any edged-weapons).

Anaei+Mansfield:
I'd imagine that would be a proper use of a mage in a battlefield, yes. A specialist that support infantry formations.

I understand that shockwaves are a bitch to describe, but your explanation about the effects of magic is just rather weak, without taking momentum and the likes in account.

I mean kinetic energy is in everything that moves. and on impact it is transferred to the target. If my ball of fire is thrown at you at 250m/sec
then that blast will have a definite effect next to the effects of fire. Just like a bullet hitting kevlar still disperses the remaining energy onto the body of the wearer, often causing broken ribs.

and leaving that out is just silly, even a few small lines will complement this guide i'd think.

without going into detail about what pressure does on the body and the internal organs etc.

Amaryl wrote:I understand that shockwaves are a bitch to describe, but your explanation about the effects of magic is just rather weak, without taking momentum and the likes in account.

I mean kinetic energy is in everything that moves. and on impact it is transferred to the target. If my ball of fire is thrown at you at 250m/sec
then that blast will have a definite effect next to the effects of fire. Just like a bullet hitting kevlar still disperses the remaining energy onto the body of the wearer, often causing broken ribs.

and leaving that out is just silly, even a few small lines will complement this guide i'd think.

without going into detail about what pressure does on the body and the internal organs etc.

This IS just a game. This voilence thing just seems to be more and more complicated and you'd have to be some sorta medical expert or shockwave master apparently to put it all into practise. Oh and you know wich types of weapons are how strong, from what distance, and what metal, against what types of armour, from what ages, the quality in their making ETC. ETC.

Can't we all just play and decide ourselves 'n have some random voilent fun?

Amaryl wrote:I understand that shockwaves are a bitch to describe, but your explanation about the effects of magic is just rather weak, without taking momentum and the likes in account.

I mean kinetic energy is in everything that moves. and on impact it is transferred to the target. If my ball of fire is thrown at you at 250m/sec
then that blast will have a definite effect next to the effects of fire. Just like a bullet hitting kevlar still disperses the remaining energy onto the body of the wearer, often causing broken ribs.

and leaving that out is just silly, even a few small lines will complement this guide i'd think.

without going into detail about what pressure does on the body and the internal organs etc.

Harsh..

Also what Mansfield said. In a world where you can light a campfire under water, don't question physics.

Mansfield \ Ath wrote:

This IS just a game. This voilence thing just seems to be more and more complicated and you'd have to be some sorta medical expert or shockwave master apparently to put it all into practise. Oh and you know wich types of weapons are how strong, from what distance, and what metal, against what types of armour, from what ages, the quality in their making ETC. ETC.

Can't we all just play and decide ourselves 'n have some random voilent fun?

No man, I'm not an expert, but neither is Gahalla, he just made an attempt to bring some realism or perspective into things for the people who look for that, and I figured I'd give some feedback. You know to maybe make the guide better for people interested. my number was just a random guess at the speed of a 9mm bullet. You're free to hold your own rules to keep it fun its what we all do. but for a guide focussed on realism, I'm entitled to my opinion and feedback.

But other then that, I think it should be common knowledge for people that wear for example mail, that Mail armour is great for protection against slashing attacks. You don't need to know the high physics behind everything to understand what kind of damage exists and what protects against it. again you're free to use whatever means of damage and recovery time you feel is fun. I doubt that anybody is questioning that.

Hmm... you're right Amaryl, I could add a few lines about shockwaves in the magic section (which I plan to edit into the opening post soon). Keeping it as simple and applicable as possible. I appriciate the feedback.

Mansfield, don't worry. I'm not going to add some sort of list with quantifiable data. Mostly because there's so many factors involved that such a list would be practically impossible to make.

As always, fun should trump realism, but to some of us the realistic approach (within limits) is a whole lot more fun than the random violence. It's something worth mentioning. Noone should force another to use my guide for their own character, but choosing to apply it to one's own characters should be fine, don't you agree?

Anaei: Personally I always say that in fantasy, realism applies unless otherwise stated. For instance: a fantasy world still have gravity, mages who can fly can just temporarily overcome it.

Gahalla wrote:(the crusaders were almost exclusively french)

Great guide, and some ideas I will use, and maybe offer some ideas on and stuff this week.

But the above bit... where and what is your source for that?!

If we want to keep it realistic, fireballs wouldn't have any kinetic foce at all. You can't exactly weight fire. And creating mass out of nothing except (magical) energy, I don't think that works. At best you could capture air and propel it forwards and use the airs kinetic force through movement. Compressing said air before casting the fireball would allow something of a shockwave or explosion on impact. But it would take longer to make it than just a ball of fire that you throw.

Now from wikipedia:"A flame (from Latin flamma) is the visible (light-emitting) gaseous part of a fire.". If we assume that fire is the same, magic is used as fuel and containment of the fire icly. Now if the magic replaces the gaseous part, then there is no weight as far as I would believe. Throwing just the fire, as in the heat and light, without any air or physical component, then that would be as touching a light bulb for a split second that is switched on, you still feel heat but not for long since the fireball is gone after it hits you. It would still however be able set fire to very volatile materials. I think it's been named somewhere before that a fireball that is thrown wont set fire to everything at once since there wouldn't be enough heat for long enough to heat said material to the point where it catches fire.

Reason spells don't do white damage perhaps

E=MC^2 liches ^^

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:If we want to keep it realistic, fireballs wouldn't have any kinetic foce at all. You can't exactly weight fire. And creating mass out of nothing except (magical) energy, I don't think that works. At best you could capture air and propel it forwards and use the airs kinetic force through movement. Compressing said air before casting the fireball would allow something of a shockwave or explosion on impact. But it would take longer to make it than just a ball of fire that you throw.

Now from wikipedia:"A flame (from Latin flamma) is the visible (light-emitting) gaseous part of a fire.". If we assume that fire is the same, magic is used as fuel and containment of the fire icly. Now if the magic replaces the gaseous part, then there is no weight as far as I would believe. Throwing just the fire, as in the heat and light, without any air or physical component, then that would be as touching a light bulb for a split second that is switched on, you still feel heat but not for long since the fireball is gone after it hits you. It would still however be able set fire to very volatile materials. I think it's been named somewhere before that a fireball that is thrown wont set fire to everything at once since there wouldn't be enough heat for long enough to heat said material to the point where it catches fire.

Reason spells don't do white damage perhaps

E=MC^2 liches ^^

Air has mass.
Gas has mass.

To "throw" fire you need to move something. the faster you throw it, the more force it gets. Since you're still moving molecules. throw it fast enough, compress it enough, and it will surely have Plenty of Kinetic energy.

just like if I throw a bullet at you with my hand it won't do much. If I shoot it out of a gun at 200m/s yeah, it's going to be a painful bitch.

I haven't said it doesnt, I'm pointing out that we dont' know for sure that a ingame fireball has air/gass in it. Maybe it does but only what the little mass of "just fire" grabs with them. Now from.. I don't know if it was the Vanilla or TBC intro where that guy throws fireballs at infernals, from there I would assume he's capturing air and throwing it while it's set on fire.

It's possible to throw just light, but I have yet to see a lightbulb hurt me from 10 meters away by throwing it's light at me . Keep in mind that even very small things have masses, atoms, even electrons, but they are just so damn small .
Oh you can take some atoms and give it a shit load of force, see CERN for that.


PS. I can ofcourse be wrong, physics aren't my area of win ._. and google "mass of photon" gives too much different texts.

Kristeas Sunbinder wrote:I haven't said it doesnt, I'm pointing out that we dont' know for sure that a ingame fireball has air/gass in it. Maybe it does but only what the little mass of "just fire" grabs with them. Now from.. I don't know if it was the Vanilla or TBC intro where that guy throws fireballs at infernals, from there I would assume he's capturing air and throwing it while it's set on fire.

It's possible to throw just light, but I have yet to see a lightbulb hurt me from 10 meters away by throwing it's light at me . Keep in mind that even very small things have masses, atoms, even electrons, but they are just so damn small .
Oh you can take some atoms and give it a shit load of force, see CERN for that.


PS. I can ofcourse be wrong, physics aren't my area of win ._. and google "mass of photon" gives too much different texts.

Well in my opinion for something be on fire, ie burn, there's a reaction going on. from a realistic point of view. so there is something that is burning. and moving that stuff or the fire itself, seems like stuff moving which implies kinetic energy.

And I always assumed fire magic was just about compressing dust particles in the air and igniting that, before launching it to the target. as the fire ball's casting time is gathering and igniting the 'air', while a pyroblast is just gathering more, to bring in a more powerfull ball. but that is my personal opinion regarding magic.

In many fantasy lores, including wow, fire mages are considered one of the most destructive forces in an army. Don't just turn them into Christmas cande light decoration. Anyone claiming different is invited to stand in front a propane powered flame thrower for 1 second at 2 feet distance and then shrug it off like "it was just light":

Spoiler:

Any cleverly used weapon in this game has deadly force. Whether it's a dagger in your back, a bastard sword cleaving you in half or a burst of flame that torches you to dust. What matters is that people should treat all weapons, whether it is magical or conventional, as potentially deadly. A threat should be taken seriously, and considering the implications... it should also be uttered with caution.

Also, there is no point in trying to always break it down in terms of mass, momentum and kinetic energy. What is an explosion? A shitload of energy compressed into a small place, expanding at high speed. How dangerous is that? I doubt anyone needs a picture of Hiroshima to know that the only limitation is "the amount of energy generated in a short timespan".
You can easily translate that in wow terms to the amount of energy the mage is able to summon in a short timespan.

Also, when it comes to fire spells. Considering that many of them, or in spec, light you on fire. You have to take into accond that they either have some mass that will stick to you (napalm/flamethrower propane etc), or that they simply burn hot enough to instantaniously set your clothes/hair/skin on fire. I've stood over enough shock fires to know that your normal campfire burns far from hot enough for that. It might singe your eyebrows but is no where close to the fire of the fire spells thrown around in WoW.

Right... since we've started to analyze what a standard fire-spell is physically I'm going to go in a bit and pull the break. We can't really discuss the exact specifics of it since we don't know the details. All we can do is assume, and each of us will assume something we think makes the most sense. Until some sort of authority on the matter (which means Blizzard's team of writers) provides us with details, we should stay as far away as we can from using mathematical formula.

What we do know is that practically all spells are provided (the exact means depend on the form of magic) a form of energy (fire, cold, lightning, raw arcane, the raw power of fel, the Light and so on) that are then woven into some form of effect.

The fireball might put you on fire, but I'm inclined to believe that it does so because of the magic rather than the heat (the heat is what hurts you though. If you catch fire, drop and roll!).

Let's take the arcane fireball as an example again. The mage uses the arcane to summon raw fire from it's elemental plane. He then shapes it into a quasi-physical ball of fire and propels it towards the target.
For the duration of the flight it will be as any other projectile, it will travel along a trajectory of sorts and hit with a certain amount of force. If it hits in the right place it can be enough to push someone off their feet (or hurt their innards), but it need not and if it hits elsewhere one might resist the impulse.
Upon connecting with their target the fire will be taken into account, it will spread out and burn it's target for a split second before dissipating. It's most likely increadibly terrifying and painful to get hit, but the actual trauma will be fairly limited (but each subsequent exposure will increase the physical injury exponentially). It is possible that very flammable materials will catch fire and that a person might be blinded, if unlucky, but it is something very dependant on chance.

It's is by no means anything trivial and noone that is not drugged out of their minds (like real berserkers, not those fantasy wannabees with anger management issues ) will be able to ignore it. It is definantely just as lethal as any other form of combat and much more difficult to recover from (meaning it's actually more likely to kill you, just not on the spot). It is definantely something very terrifying to behold, unpredictable and a flash and a bang (or something).

Like any other form of weapon it is a tool for killing. It can kill, it can cripple and it can fail to do so. Like all other weapons however, one should always IC assume that it will kill.
Muttering incantations or holding fireballs in your hands are acts of combat just as nocking an arrow or drawing the sword.

To sum up:
Magic is just as lethal as any other form of violence
Magic should be treated with as much respect as any other weapon. It is not a toy.

Also, I advice to use realism thematically when it adds to roleplaying. But not scientifically.
We don't know enough details to be able to make accurate predictions and assumptions. Exactly how much force it has, how big the impulse is, the heat transfered and such are things we'll never know. At best we can make analogies (but not expect it to be exactly like those cases).
It's a fine balance to walk, just like everything else.

Grufftoof: It's what I've always read just about everywhere. Also, the mediveal names for most locations and titles in the Levant are in french (not all though, granted). Such as the keep Krak-de-la-chevalier or the title Duc de Tripoli (duke of tripolis).
I believe the expression "Lingua Franca" comes from around this time too, these days it's about what language is expected to be used. But it's literal meaning should be obvious enough.
I should note though... that there were plenty of Normans (especially from naples) there, who I admit aren't really french. They did speak it however.

wasn't french the diplomatic language of the time? as in most international dealings were done in french?

Really? We went over from voilence to french? *Waves the white flag.*

I just skimmed thro the toppic but you know Mansfield , that kevlar vest can absorb shotgun shot, but is easily stabbed through with knife

anyway the shooting spoiler, it's not comonly just plate kyris on body ... you must count that normally under plate armour is chain mail and under it is thick cloth layer as well ... the cloth itself doesn't give much of armour, but gives the suspension and the chainmail under plate usualy makes the damage lesser not so deep, lethal, etc ... and also as Mansfield stated, there are fucked up metals in WoW which are you know kind of OP too .. take example Felsteel and Saronite ... no bulet can go through "that thing"

but anyway the guide is pretty nice and from alot of aspects looked at ... also it's hard to expect everyone will follow it ... I mean the basic line ... you get bleeded you should stop fighting unless you are some kind of berserk.

Also what should be put more into considering is that some roleplayers tend to do "easily" go through knock out attempts ... well bang with heavy shield on head for example is something that surely sends you down if not crack your skull, when you get smacked to temple or back of head, you should go down on ground , battle experience or not, this is simple anathomy maybe dwarves are made to resist. but for example humans or elves should be more fragile for knock outs ... especially when they wear no head protection...

but again, you can't demand wonders from everyone anyway nice guide <3