[A] Crooks & Saints (Discussion thread)

[Reynar / Raviran]

As some might have noticed, this issue came up on a thread earlier and I decided to bring it here so we could have a nice long discussion about it.

Outlaws vs Authority
(My information is based on the guilds I've come across lately, I'm not entirely sure which ones are active or how largely populated)

Current criminal guilds: (In SW)
The Forlorn Cartel

Current guard / law enforcing guilds: (In SW)
The Stormwind Regiment
The Blazing Shields
The Disciples of Light
The Silver Edge
Alliance Intelligence Agency

There's also been talk about the new guilds that will come about after the incoming server connection. And so far it has been leaning towards the "Good guys". We'll have more people ready to kill / arrest us Criminals who are slowly dying out btw.

Current neutral guilds: (In SW)
The Second Swords
Band of the Brave
The Crimson Rose
The Slaughted Lamb
Dragon's Tongue
The Freelancers
(Many other guilds I haven't seen around yet ICly)

And on a side note, many of the Neutral guilds are very law-friendly. Which makes most of the current Mercenaries, adventurers and enterpreneurs pretty anti-outlawish.


Well...? What did you think?
A tad too one-sided battle so far aye.

This would be fine if the RP was actually there, but it's not. So far the current situation is killing the criminal side of the server. No kidding.
Now nobody can force someone to make a criminal guild, but what we -CAN- do is work towards better Cops & Robbers relations and communication.

I'd personally wish to make a /raid chat with the GM's and the officers of the few said guilds I mentioned above and discuss this.

This concerns all of you! Why play the hunter if there's nothing to hunt? There's no guards without actual criminals. So please, we need to make these things work.

It's really hard for people to get into Criminal RP when the whole server is pretty much after them. A new criminal guild will probably not emerge anytime soon, since ICly the ratio is just too much against them. It's hard for us to get into a casual RP unless we're ready to get swarmed by the authorities.

Yes, some of us have made stuff ICly which result in IC consequences, that's clear. Yeah we know.
But the guys who haven't don't get it all good either. They get thrown in the cells until god knows when, which brings me to my next topic.

Prisoner RP

Yes we all know the saying "Don't do the crime if you can't do the time L0L" and I fully respect it, but come on! Locking people in the cell without giving them any RP is not an IC punishment, it's an OOC punishment.

If you do arrest someone, don't just throw them in the cell without even doing any freaking check-up and then run to the streets to save the day. No!

Here's a list of few things that could be done during Prisoner RP:

- Inspect the prisoner, removing his gear.

- Write a report of the arrest. (You don't have to do it OOCly if it's a bother but ask a few questions ICly and emote it atleast.)

- Interrogate the prisoner if necessary. (We love it rough, seriously you can kick our bloody asses aslong as we get the RP)

- Provide them with "food" and water. (It's the guard's decision whether to piss in the prisoner's cup or pour water in it!)

- Just like the one above, it's your call to determine what kind of a person you've arrested. If he's a bloody bastard then spit on him and treat him accordingly. But on the other side if you think he's innocent you may comfort him and give him a blanket or something.

- Talk with your superiors about the prisoner and the determined punishment, it seriously speeds things up.

- DON'T FORGET THE PRISONERS IN THE CELLS! Seriously. If he /w's you and asks when he can get out. "I'm sorry I don't know, I'll ask." And after that it goes nowhere sometimes. If you arrest them then make sure someone knows what's up!


Just my 2 cents about that. Only one thing which needs to be worked on.
Be sure to check Wolf's thread on hostage situations! [You must be registered and logged in to see this link.]

I'm not putting blame on the "Good guys" nor am I trying to offend anyone, if I already have based on the text above then I apologize.
This thread should be used for serious discussion on the whole Cops & Crooks situation we have right now.

Now I want your opinions on the current situation and what we could do to make Guard vs Criminal RP more enjoyable and less oppressing.

[Guest]

I'd personally wish to make a /raid chat with the GM's and the officers of the few said guilds I mentioned above and discuss this.

Up for this if you'd like, just send me a message in-game.  It'd be good to hear both sides to this discussion, at the very least.

[Robin Drake]

Regarding Criminals and Guards

Right now as Ray has said above on the server the odds are stacked extremely high against the criminals in the city. Not only does this make comitting a crime very hard with the risk of being caught extremely high but it just means we as a guild are a lot more less likely to actually -do- bad things if we can see we're just going to get absolutely steam-rolled by not just guard guilds but the dozens of whiteknights that inhabit Stormwinds streets. I'm not saying that the criminals should -Always- be allowed to get away, of course not that'd be ridiculous but it's extremely hard to get away when there's a cluster of ten or more people trying to tackle you down.

Moving onto my next point which would be the attitude of the guards towards criminals. This is in no way a complaint about guard guilds, but criminals who are known to commit crimes or be in a group of people that are known to commit crimes should be -Hunted- down. My character is wanted on multiple charges and yet I can go to Stormwind and walk around a bar, with a hat on and act as if nothing has happened. Guards will walk past me without actually trying to arrest me or whatever. Along with the actual attitude of the IC guards - The thread on this website regarding Wanted Posters should be -Regularly- updated so those who are criminals being hunted can be recognised by people IC.

As well as this, there are a few subjects regarding criminal RP that go completely ignored. My character is also a drug dealer, and has approached people IC on the streets of Stormwind wishing to sell. From my perspective a lot of people on the game consider drugs a bad thing IRL and therefore their characters won't do the same - Others decide that they should buy and take the drugs.. but still I have never seen an arrest regarding the taking or possession of drugs. Without wanting to refer to real life situations too much many police forces often do stop searches of people walking the streets suspiciously at night but still day in day out I see guards patrolling.. not really doing -Much-

As Ray has said, for criminal and guard RP to work hand in hand there needs to be -Proper- OOC communication which is why I believe the raid thing to be a good idea. If there is no OOC communication then all of the crimes which we commit and often get caught for usually end with one side pointing fingers at the other. Words such as "Metagamer" or "Godemoter" flying between both sides and you have to look at the reality of the situation. There Is -No- crime without criminals - If we as a guild were suddenly to up off and leave the amount of arrests would fall dramatically and any arrests that are made would usually be for random "Assaults" outside the Pig. Let's be honest - Not many people RP organised crime. From my personal experience without naming any names I have felt when Rping with certain guards just an OOC hate for the idea and annoyance when the "Criminals" might begin to win over "plated, armed and trained guards" and yeah I can understand that. I also get a lot of complaints about the number of thugs in an attack - perhaps six people surrounding one person has sometimes been called godemoting but then you also need to look at Stormwind itself. Most cities are made up of mostly working class/poor people just hardly anyone in WoW actually plays a poor character so it's more than likely that a gang of thugs will outnumber a "Citizen" or a small regiment of guards.

I think as well as the OOC meeting between criminals and guards, a few -Planned- events need to be set up, where things are kept fair and there is no bitchiness on either side. Something that is fun for both sides where there is consequences for both too. Of course if a criminal is caught expect him to go to the cells! Then moving onto prisoner RP. It does seem silly to have guards walking down into the cells with the prisoners yeah, so I think one of the best ways to get around this would be physical activities. Community service or just allowing prisoners to go on a walk with a detachment of guards to stretch their legs. Theres probably a law somewhere that states it's inhumane to keep somebody chained to a wall without physical activity for 24+ hours so the guards and criminals need to sort it out themselves as to what the -Criminal- can do to keep them Rping. Much regarding my hostage thread if I have taken a hostage before and fled the city I would never leave that hostage alone so long as they are online. Even if it is just to converse.. beat them up.. interrogate them or whatever. Nobody wants to sit alone with nothing to do for hours on end regardless of the whole "Can't do the time don't do the crime" argument.

-Theres a lot more to talk about but these are the things that first struck me as I read the thread, I do hope that a lot f the guards and those interested in guards vs criminals RP in Stormwind decide to take part in this discussion -

[Ixirar]

but it's extremely hard to get away when there's a cluster of ten or more people trying to tackle you down.

Why would you try to commit a crime when there's a cluster of ten or more people around who are likely to try to tackle you down?

but criminals who are known to commit crimes or be in a group of people that are known to commit crimes should be -Hunted- down

Doesn't this contradict the overall idea that guards are so numerous that they should be more lenient on criminals? What this'll do is push you even harder out of Stormwind, isn't it?

but still I have never seen an arrest regarding the taking or possession of drugs.

They may have changed this, but while I was in the Cartel, the council-approved list of city laws didn't state that drugs were illegal, and upon inquiry the answer was that there was no law that would prohibit consumption of those substances.

[Robin Drake]

but it's extremely hard to get away when there's a cluster of ten or more people trying to tackle you down.

I mean - This usually comes after the crime. Considering a crime usually ends up with a fight that takes 5-10 minutes due to the time that it takes to emote. What would realistically happen in 2 minutes ends up taking 10 which allows others to stumble across the crime and whiteknight.

but criminals who are known to commit crimes or be in a group of people that are known to commit crimes should be -Hunted- down

I'm not asking for them to be lenient, I'm asking them to take criminals seriously IC. There are no actual hunts out for one person or a specific group of people. No actual attempts being made to apprehend someone who has done something wrong unless they stumble across said person on a patrol. For example with the masquerade event we were supposed to be classed as "Terrorrists" or whatever and a week later we're walking around the street freely people see us in the street and nobody bats an eyelid.

As for the drug thing. I dunno. But theres always new and dangerous drugs being created at least I know by Dem, things like Sha Dust and so on that could be outlawed. Just needs to be looked at.

[Demurral]

my only real niggle is this:
1) - civilians who are being mugged at fireball/gun/knifepoint in the streets, who constantly badmouth, swear, and annoy the muggers, because they are safe behind the shield of "I don't consent to character death or serious physical maiming".

You know who you are - all we ask is, show some -real- emotions of your character. Act scared. Beg, Cry, whatever. It doesn't make you less of a "badass".

[Ixirar]

1) - civilians who are being mugged at fireball/gun/knifepoint in the streets, who constantly badmouth, swear, and annoy the muggers, because they are safe behind the shield of "I don't consent to character death or serious physical maiming".

To be fair, lots of criminals to this with the guards.

[Thondalar Stormleaf]

When I RP on my guard, I don't mind loosing if a fight happens. Sure, he'll try his best to take criminals down, but I also understand the importance to keep criminal RP alive. When I do arrests, I try to push getting punishments done as fast as possible, to avoid boring time in the cells. If I am able, I also try to provide RP in the cells.

However that can at times be a lot harder then it sounds, especially with the influx on guards on duty VS the people who come into the CC.

When I shoot at criminals, or plan to punish them, I normally try to keep a good OOC dialog, so that the criminal is okay with the punishment too. When criminals are escaping my char (like Garret last night) I don't mind if my arrows miss, and the char gets away. I keep a good dialoge(I feel myself) and I make sure that the other is okay with the emotes I do.

Of course disagreements happen, sadly with human nature that is unavoidable. But I do try my best to please both parties.

[Izzifix]

The majority of characters on the server lean towards a Lawful alignment (but an antihero attitude). Guards rarely even need to stand up to the criminals, the general populace of paladins and their pals need very little help shutting down criminal activity.


Edit:
I also have an idea for an reoccurring event that could help flip the tables to a slightly more favourable position for the criminals.

[siegmund]

Yelling "Location" everytime something goes off gets old real fast and doesn't always make sense asking where your friend is getting stabed half across town via /yell also makes ton of people show up randomly, what happened to good old message delivering up to peoples faces? Also I guess crossbows and bows, daggers and such are out of date, guns bestweapon forever. (Goes for guards as well, the NPC's themselves seem to prefer crossbows)

Make wanted posters moar. Guards need to write down better detailed descriptions for those they hunting if they can.

Try stealing something from one person then selling it to a "neutral organization" the latter you probably don't wanna do in masks and rambo flintlocks and guns all over your waist. Civilians can be so much more use then just bags of money with legs. While you can be a copper (or more) away from used to scare one civilian to stay away from another civilians girlfriend or somesort! Be creative then just let's kill, rob and swear.

Frenemies or friends guards/crimials alts and whatnot doesn't always do great things either.

Not sure though how people handle "reports" or hearing what happens but from least once personal experience it was a thing till it was not but it's been ages so no idea.

[Bradley]

Don't do the crime if you can't do the time. Fair enough.

Don't lock someone's character up if you can't provide them with rp fairly often during the duration of the character's prison sentence slash kidnapping. Also fair enough.

[Ixirar]

A suggestion: For those "Lock char up overnight and then forget about them for months" situations. Would it be an idea to communicate a "We're locking you up for this long" intention OOCly and, so long as nothing else has been communicated, the criminal can simply let himself out after that period of time if no guards are around to do it? It seems fair enough, to be honest, as in that case, clearly the guard in question is busy with other stuff and thus can't expect the criminal to be cut off from RP.

I'd also advocate there being no other jail time punishment than "Overnight" unless the situation specifically calls for it (as in, if the criminal specifically does something that would require him being locked up while his case is handled), and any time you feel the need to lock somebody up for more than a day, figure out a different punishment instead.

[Garrett]

The only thing I really have to "complain" about is the following; Which I've had the displeasure of experiencing earlier today, my character was sitting behind some sort of wall, clearly out of sight, just having a casual conversation with a friendly Pandaren, the only way he could've been spotted was if someone would've been looking at him from the graveyard, which in-fact happened, "someone" decided to randomly take a stroll through the graveyard for no reason whatsoever in order to spot me, primarily because of the map functionality in our beloved RP add-on, I'm not saying that "someone" -couldn't- have decided to just randomly take a stroll through the graveyard but what I'm getting at is this; And it's happened on multiple other occasions as well, if you're RP'ing some sort of guard, or any other "good guy" that's there to arrest others and you spot a crowd of people or just one person by him/herself on your map, somewhere clearly away and out of sight like the docks for example, (Because let's face it, who the Hell checks the docks regularly regardless if there's people there or not?) be realistic as to if your character would actually him/herself decide to randomly take a stroll to wherever that place may be without having heard from anyone IC'ly people might be there, keep in mind your character does -not- have a map which tells him/her exactly where the people they're after are, it's hardly fun RP'ing out a crime somewhere far away from sight while suddenly being charged at by fifteen whiteknights who happened to check their TRP map, this goes both ways of course, criminals have yet to invent the TRP map functionality IC'ly as well.

tl;dr: Don't meta your way over to people you're after by using the map functionality and "happening" to stumble upon them, be realistic about the places your character him/herself would go to.

[Iriel Silversong]

First of all Silver Edge are -not- a guard guild.

[Ixirar]

tl;dr: Don't meta your way over to people you're after by using the map functionality and "happening" to stumble upon them, be realistic about the places your character him/herself would go to.

Although you're right to feel annoyed at this, I'd advice to simply turn off the tracking in TRP if you don't want people metaing to find you. I disagree with the notion that metagaming is always bad and there's no grey zone. At times, metagaming can be a good thing, and creates RP where none would be had without it. Obviously, this wasn't one of those cases, but I'd say it's up to the individual person to, if he doesn't want to be tracked, turn off his tracking. The habit of just yelling "META GAMING!" every time something doesn't go your way (seen this happen from both sides, not pointing fingers here) is one that is very much diminishing to RP. When I was a guard, I once was out patrolling, on the lookout for a certain 3 criminals. At one point during the patrol, I was called to the graveyard because somebody found a corpse. While investigating that corpse, those exact three criminals just so happened to stroll right past me, and all three were quick to point out how I would never find them without metagaming when my char called her comrades to confront them.

Point being, it's not always metagaming. And if you want to eliminate some of the possibility that it might be, turn off tracking.

First of all Silver Edge are -not- a guard guild.

I'm not sure who these are, but just to make it clear: Who decides whether or not they're a guard guild?

[Iriel Silversong]

Well I helped the gm create it . They're Marines who support the Alliance through vessels and traveling to other continents . It's not about decided is about what the guild is.

[Thondalar Stormleaf]

(Because let's face it, who the Hell checks the docks regularly regardless if there's people there or not?)

Regiment check the docks and graveyard on every patrol now, after we got IC told off by the council for not doing it often enough. We also pass the flowershop.

[Tantzui]

Wanna get IC consequences? Come visit Durotar..

*evil laugh*

[Iriel Silversong]

They get ic consequences but some people cries about it. Which it's annoying in a long run

[Vaell]

I have to agree with Siegmund's opinion on yelling "LOCATION?!" - It ruins criminal RP when you can yell from one end of the city to another and alert someone of your danger. I don't mind a scream being heard and alerting the guards, so they have to find you, but literally describing the location through yells is such crap. Although, I don't doubt some guards would use their TRP map to find people yelling anyway.

As for the prisoner situation, I do agree that people shouldn't be left to be forgotten in a cell. We're all playing to rp as a community and have fun, neglecting people because they chose to play a criminal is unfair. However, you have to look at both sides and often more than not, guards are busy with their own rp and can't always cater to a locked up criminal's rp. The only solutions I can think of are:
1. Criminals are processed quicker.
2. A new punishment is made where they have to wear a shock collar or something along those lines. Maybe they have to be a temporary slave to their captor?


EDIT: And to the point that there are more good guy guilds, well... nothing you can really do about it. More people enjoy role-playing as guards and paladins. You want to compete? RP a bigger, badder criminal instead of a petty thug!

[Samian/Bismack]

My character is wanted on multiple charges and yet I can go to Stormwind and walk around a bar, with a hat on and act as if nothing has happened.

And thats poor on who's behalf? This is the foundation of RP on DB atm, circle rp with nothing really going on.

[Ixirar]

Although, I don't doubt some guards would use their TRP map to find people yelling anyway.

This is fine, imo. I mean, the yell would have an origin point. Logically, the guards would be able to hear the general direction of the yell.

[Vaell]

Although, I don't doubt some guards would use their TRP map to find people yelling anyway.

This is fine, imo. I mean, the yell would have an origin point. Logically, the guards would be able to hear the general direction of the yell.

If they're in the same district. But you can hear yells by the Cathedral when you're in Old Town. That's the part I find ridic.

[Seranita]

First of all Silver Edge are -not- a guard guild.

you may need to remind them then one of them tired to arrest monnies friend last night

[Vaell]

Well I helped the gm create it . They're Marines who support the Alliance through vessels and traveling to other continents . It's not about decided is about what the guild is.

Sure, but WoW has never mentioned a policing force. Soldiers - marines included - are our guards. So by the concept of the guild... they could technically arrest.

[Sponsored content]