Re: Ways to kill a Death Knight?

by **Drustai** Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:30 pm

EShadowsong wrote:This is actually quite an interesting question. I see there has been quite some discussion on this topic and I could bore you with literally pages of biological functions I've theorized on Death Knights. I'll keep it short and simple as much as possible for the sake of sanity.

Killing a Death Knight really depends first on how that Death Knight is perceived into life. There are three types of Death Knights that I have seen played:

1) Vampiric DK: This Death Knight carries a vampiric runeblade that has taken the hosts soul and carries it within the blade. Keep in mind that as a PC you -CAN'T- have a vampiric runeblade. These blades are very uncommon and only a few are actually named within the game. They were given to a select few such as Baron Rivendare and naturally, Arthas himself.
2) Self Anchored DK: This Death Knight is the standard from the starting area. Your soul, through a necromantic process, is bound to your body once again in a similar fashion to the Forsaken. The magics used to bind you however are far stronger which is why you don't see DKs falling victim to things such as brain rot.
3) Runeblade Anchored DK: This is my prefered stance on DKs, that upon forging a runeblade the act of anchoring the soul to the blade can also happen. Theoretically you should be able to change which weapon you are anchored to as it is pointed out if you're found without a runeblade you should reacquire one immediately.

Naturally the anchoring of the soul is quite a hot topic and not what is being discussed here. I will count out Vampiric DKs from this equation as we really shouldn't see any on a PC RP level.

All DKs have a vampiric runeblade. What they might not have is a soul-leeching blade. But all DK runeblades absorb life energies from their victim which are used to empower the death knight's spells, and the very process of runeforging requires draining life from victims. The thing that is up in the air is whether player DK blades are able to absorb souls, as Frostmourne and Shadowmourne can.

Decapitation and Severing the Spine: Though a Death Knight needs their spine for support of their body like anything else, severance of the spine will not kill them. Generic undead are anchored via their spine which is why they separate upon death. The Death Knights creation affords them a tremendous advantage in that a simple severance will not destroy them outright. Should the entire spinal cord be destroyed that will be enough which is why decapitation and burning the remains are the recommended way to deal with a Death Knight. Keep in mind that the head, even after decapitation, will retain the ability to speak (depending on where it is severed from). The body may also continue to move of its own volition as the energies that move the Death Knights body run throughout their nervous system and animate the skeletal system (not the muscular system).

Where is it said that generic undead are 'anchored' via their spine?

by **Anivitas** Thu Feb 07, 2013 7:58 pm

Ledgic Caan wrote:You're certainly not.

Though, to be completely fair, I think just whispering the Black Hand folk and saying you've no interest in being jumped/you'd rather not acknowledge the fact they can just "know" when your character enters Duskwood is completely reasonable.

^ Yeah this, if you whisper us we will leave you alone. Forcing the RP on people would be dull and pretty boring RP for both sides I can imagine. And 99.9% of the people that have died in Duskwood have asked us to kill them.

Considering the way the Hand works it dosen't break any immersion for them to ignore some people (The ones that want us to ignore them) As I made them like that just for this scenario.

Also, I did a lot of research before I rolled my Deadie, and I think the best guide I found was v

http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2504881097

Its what I use anyway.

by **EShadowsong** Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:04 pm

Valdar/Melan wrote:I'm just slightly intrigued here...

Whenever someone on these forums attempts to 'claim' a building, the whole community goes bananas.

However, when someone claims an entire zone under the premise of "enter here, and yo char is gon' die, bitch", everyone is like "Yeah, that seems fair."

Am I the only one confused by that?

The only way I can see someone that claims an entire zone being "fair" would be if it is a limited time thing built around a very plausible RP backstory. If the group of DKs found a powerful artifact that they're unearthing in Duskwood and wish to keep people away while its pulled that's understandable. But they would also have to accept the fact that an alliance of PCs may become suspicious as people go missing in Duskwood and send in search parties and finally an army.

Drustai wrote:All DKs have a vampiric runeblade. What they might not have is a soul-leeching blade. But all DK runeblades absorb life energies from their victim which are used to empower the death knight's spells, and the very process of runeforging requires draining life from victims. The thing that is up in the air is whether player DK blades are able to absorb souls, as Frostmourne and Shadowmourne can.

I understand that all runeblades have a vampiric ability to them, but I wouldn't call what PC DKs have a "true" vampiric blade. Only a few of those types of blades are even named in lore and to mass produce them would be far to time consuming. To me a vampiric blade is one that steals the souls of the victims and also steals the soul of the master. Once the master dies the blade goes inert till it finds another person to pick it up and wield it and turns them in a Death Knight. I just don't see that being the case for Third Generation Death Knights.

Drustai wrote:Where is it said that generic undead are 'anchored' via their spine?

It is said that the generic undead have souls loosely connected to their bodies, which is why most of them are unthinking atrocities. This is also something linked to the brain rot that the Forsaken can undergo as the necrotic energy that links their soul to body begins to unravel. There's no direct thing saying that the spine is the anchor, but consider that anytime a non-PC undead dies (save for skeletons which are built off the Forsaken male model), their death animation involves their spine severing.

by **Drustai** Thu Feb 07, 2013 8:17 pm

Yes, I wasn't disputing the loose anchoring, just the "spine" specifically.

The spine severing only happens with the ghoul and some zombie and skeleton models. It doesn't happen with many other undead, like abominations, gargoyles, crypt friends, wights, and so on. So I wouldn't put too much stock in it.

The head on the other hand is canonically shown to be a huge weak spot, so I'm much more inclined to think that that is the seat of the soul. Afterall, it took only one bullet to the head to kill Sylvanas.

by **Thelos** Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:39 pm

by Guest Thu Feb 07, 2013 10:47 pm

We'll all go the Pig and Whistle for ERP until it blows over.

by **Feral / Blackfall** Fri Feb 08, 2013 6:13 am

Valdar/Melan wrote:I'm just slightly intrigued here...

Whenever someone on these forums attempts to 'claim' a building, the whole community goes bananas.

However, when someone claims an entire zone under the premise of "enter here, and yo char is gon' die, bitch", everyone is like "Yeah, that seems fair."

Am I the only one confused by that?

Also I'd like to point out that the "claims" on buildings appear, what people want is for you to acknowledge OOCly that they "own" a place, that they have full rights to it, can call guards if you trespass, that they ICly actually hold legal ownership and so forth. What the DKs do is completely illegally just take root and try and kill people in the region, all IC. Players are still OOCly welcome to bring an IC solution to that, and like Ledgic said, we don't kill people who aren't fine with death. It's more creating fun RP, which creates things for chars to talk & plan about later which leads to more RP.

by **Cemdor** Mon Feb 11, 2013 11:12 pm

Drustai wrote:
Lexgrad wrote:Arthas's fate is not so clear cut, but yes More or less that.

The Sylvanas story shows it from Sylvanas' own perspective, she likewise saw only blackness. So I'm of the assumption that all undead/corrupted souls only find endless nothingness or outright oblivion after death.

Quoted from TV Tropes (because fuck looking at the Sylvanas story, I'm lazy):

"Sylvanas's short story on the official website reveals that after the Lich King's death, she committed suicide and found herself in a void where her soul was being torn apart. Arthas was there, and he had been reduced to the equivalent of a little boy huddling in the corner and crying. Then the val'kyr revived her, forming their bond that comes into play in Silverpine. "

Break the Unholy magic and you break the DK.

Yup. I always make Mana Burns/Mana Drains/Anti-Magic Fields/etc harm Dru, based on that rationale. Undead are animated by unholy magic, so, like you say, break the magic and you break the DK.

I just read the Sylvanas short story. Sad to see what Arthas has become, really.

by **Lexgrad** Tue Feb 12, 2013 8:47 am

Djem / Cemdor wrote:
Drustai wrote:
Lexgrad wrote:Arthas's fate is not so clear cut, but yes More or less that.

The Sylvanas story shows it from Sylvanas' own perspective, she likewise saw only blackness. So I'm of the assumption that all undead/corrupted souls only find endless nothingness or outright oblivion after death.

Quoted from TV Tropes (because fuck looking at the Sylvanas story, I'm lazy):

"Sylvanas's short story on the official website reveals that after the Lich King's death, she committed suicide and found herself in a void where her soul was being torn apart. Arthas was there, and he had been reduced to the equivalent of a little boy huddling in the corner and crying. Then the val'kyr revived her, forming their bond that comes into play in Silverpine. "

Break the Unholy magic and you break the DK.

Yup. I always make Mana Burns/Mana Drains/Anti-Magic Fields/etc harm Dru, based on that rationale. Undead are animated by unholy magic, so, like you say, break the magic and you break the DK.

I just read the Sylvanas short story. Sad to see what Arthas has become, really.

Sylvanas saw a hellish dimension and saw arthas but there is no way to know if it was hell or not. She was lying on Saronite spikes so it could have been a Yogg saron vision and there is always the possiblity that the Val'kyr were tricking her. Im not saying Arthas isnt in hell but as I said it is not so clear cut. Personally I think it would be better if we did not know what dreams will come when we have all shuffled off our mortal coils.

by **Littlepip** Thu Feb 28, 2013 9:53 am

I am curious as I came into a discussion with someone in game about his. How do you -kill- kill a Death knight in RP?

I find it useful using shadow magic at Death knights, just rot them away and gett done with it Very Happy

by **erwtenpeller** Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:32 pm

The coolest way to kill a death knight is to summon entangling roots FROM WITHIN!!11

by **Raene** Thu Feb 28, 2013 12:34 pm

... Dead flesh, ripe for growing things in... Oh god that's amazing!

by **Eowale** Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:21 pm

Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:
In WC3 between the Human and Undead campaign he tore out his own heart, so he did die.

Where did you get that from? Between the human and undead campaign, it just shows Arthas running off into Northrend and then appearing in Lordaeron as a Death Knight. Not him ripping his heart out.

According to Metzen, Arthas never died.
During a Q&A in the Blizzcon before the release of Wrath of the Lich King expansion, Metzen answered this question.

Q: How will the death knights fit into the Alliance, when they were primarily horde.
A: Still deliberating. Warcraft II death knights were on the Horde side. In Warcraft III, it was a number of paladins who succumbed to despair and fear. Arthas never died.
http://wow.joystiq.com/2007/08/04/blizzcon-day-2-wow-lore-and-quests-panel-liveblog/

Don't mix up the third generation of Death Knight with Arthas, whom was the first in the second generation.

Spoiler:

Disregarding all of that, I will never compare my own Death Knight to the Lich King. It's the fucking LICH KING. He's uncomparable, as he is the strongest Death Knight that ever existed.

Ways of killing a Death Knight (from my perspective).

Spoiler:

Edit: Keep in mind that this is how -I- see it.

by **Drustai** Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:36 pm

The Lich King was undead. He may not have "died", but he did transition from life into undeath, and he did rip out his heart (there's a major quest line concerning this in Icecrown).

Most/all second generation death knights, even the willing ones, have also transitioned into undeath.

Physical injury and breaking bones: As I see it, Death Knights cannot feel pain. Granted, touch is the same as pain. How about they can feel a -minimum- amount of touch? Feel of touching an item, a weapon, things like that.
So how does physical harm work on Death Knights? While they don't feel it, they would certainly be slowed down. Why? They are still bodies and they still have tendons etc. If you harmstring a Death Knight he/she would get slowed down. It wouldn't hurt as it would to living beings feel pain, but he -would- feel it. Anyone had a surgury whilst being awake but under heavy aesthetics? I had that when I had an ingrown nail. I could feel the doctor cutting, clipping and stitching during surgury but it didn't hurt. That's how I'd imagine it would feel for a Death Knight to get cut.
Same with bones. While it would be more harming than cutting his/her flesh, it still wouldn't hurt per say. If you shatter his/her kneecaps, his/her ability to move would be minimal. He/she might be able to force his/her body to move but it would be greatly slowed.

That's one weakness that I feel the Death Knights have. Pain is a signal from the body that you get hurt. That something is wrong with your body. If the Death Knight takes damage, he/she gets slowed down, but it doesn't hurt in the manner living beings does. Death Knights arn't overpowered in that matter. In my eyes, they are weaker in the long run.

One correction: they can feel limited pain. Ask CDev and Nyorloth have both specifically stated that undeath acts as a buffer that prevents the soul from connecting fully with the body, and that this results in dulled physical and emotional feelings rather than complete absence. They are still there, and can even be nurtured (as happens with holy undead priests who begin to recover their physical and emotional sensations).

It's certainly not going to be anywhere near the pain a living being would feel, but it will be there.

"The souls of the undead (Forsaken, PC death knights, ghouls, etc.) are imperfectly attached to their bodies; the dark magic that sustains them is a buffer that prevents their souls from properly joining with their bodies. This is why undead feel only faint sensations of pain or discomfort from most physical stimuli, and why the Light is so painful to their existence." -Nyorloth

by **Ixirar** Fri Mar 01, 2013 8:45 pm

I guess, in the case of Arthas, Frostmourne is notorous for being able to steal souls. I reckon once it stole Arthas', he technically transcended into undeath.

by **Eowale** Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:45 pm

Personally, I wouldn't say that Arthas died.

Soulless, yes, undead, no. He was kept alive on the Frozen Throne by the Lich King. Most of what Arthas did, was by the Lich Kings will.
In the cutscene before he died, it showed how he asked his father "Is it over?"

He was more of a slave to the Lich King, bound and not being able to do anything except watch as he killed people.

He was also affected by the poisoned arrow that Sylvanas hit him with. If he was truly undead, it would not have affected him.

by **Gor'Thrak Frosthowl** Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:03 pm

He was also affected by the poisoned arrow that Sylvanas hit him with. If he was truly undead, it would not have affected him.

I didn't bother to read the rest of the topic, but I'll just hop in to comment on this.

I'll put it simple: Magic. Magical poison! And Arthas was indeed undead at the time, because he tore out his own heart as proof of his loyalty towards Ner'Zhul.

by **Drustai** Sat Mar 02, 2013 12:41 am

Eowale wrote:Personally, I wouldn't say that Arthas died.

Soulless, yes, undead, no. He was kept alive on the Frozen Throne by the Lich King. Most of what Arthas did, was by the Lich Kings will.
In the cutscene before he died, it showed how he asked his father "Is it over?"

He was more of a slave to the Lich King, bound and not being able to do anything except watch as he killed people.

He was also affected by the poisoned arrow that Sylvanas hit him with. If he was truly undead, it would not have affected him.

He was classified as an undead in-game. He had cut his heart out. He was shown to be visibly weakened in holy areas like Light's Hope Chapel. And he was more than a slave... Arthas dominated Ner'zhul and became the sole controlling entity of the Lich King.

As for the arrow, he was likely still living at the time. Even if he wasn't, a magical arrow designed to affect undead is certainly a possibility. Hell, some normal herbs might be capable of having magical effects on the undead, too, such as how an undead (without a stomach) can actually eat Mudsnout Blossom to aid in healing their wounds.

by **Cemdor** Sat Mar 02, 2013 10:24 pm

Gor'Thrak Frosthowl wrote:
He was also affected by the poisoned arrow that Sylvanas hit him with. If he was truly undead, it would not have affected him.

I didn't bother to read the rest of the topic, but I'll just hop in to comment on this.

I'll put it simple: Magic. Magical poison! And Arthas was indeed undead at the time, because he tore out his own heart as proof of his loyalty towards Ner'Zhul.

Arthas was undead at the time, but not because he tore out his own heart. It was because Frostmourne claimed his soul. I can't remember where exactly, but I know it is stated somewhere that Arthas' soul was the first to be claimed by Frostmourne.

Arthas tore out his own heart after he woke at the Frozen Throne, five years (not sure) after conjoining with Ner'zhul. Chronologically, this is right at the beginning of Wrath of the Lich King expansion. It is stated at the questline in Icecrown Glacier that tearing out his own heart was the first thing he did after waking up. So, during the WotLK cinematic, after he opens his eyes, technically first he tears out his own heart, then he proceeds to raise Sindragosa.

Edit: Turns out I'm getting rusty on my Warcraft lore. The only source I could find for Arthas' soul being the first claimed by Frostmourne was wowpedia saying so, and that's hardly proof.

Also, on the heart thing, I could not find a way of knowing if Arthas carved his heart out right after his fight with Illidan, or after he woke up. That makes five years of difference. Now, we watch what Arthas does after beating Illidan in Warcraft III: TFT, but just to be sure someone should check the novel. There is probably proof on the novel Arthas: Rise of the Lich King, but I never read that one. Quote from the quest The Hunter and the Prince:

"After that fight, the prince realized what was holding him back was that he was still human... he could still feel... he could still bleed. He still had a heart.

The first thing he did when he became king was to rid himself of it. He threw it down the pit where we first met. And you, , were the first person to touch it since."

by **Lorthan** Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:24 am

Many people looooooove to forget that a DeathKnight in Saronite armour, is a somewhat.. "lightproof" deathknight, though! the light works wondeers against them.. annoying beings ;D

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