"Death Brigade"

Death Knights aren't necromancers though, that's the thing. Their class was given some necromancer abilities for the hero class in WotLK as they couldn't do both a Death Knight and a Necromancer hero class. It's hardly like saying we tollerate necromancers, they are in our armies and in the alliance because we have Death Knights.

Cyrdain wrote:Death Knights aren't necromancers though, that's the thing. Their class was given some necromancer abilities for the hero class in WotLK as they couldn't do both a Death Knight and a Necromancer hero class. It's hardly like saying we tollerate necromancers, they are in our armies and in the alliance because we have Death Knights.

As I said in my first post, they're partial necromancers. They do do necromancy, so you can call them necromancers, but they're hardly experts at it, like a 'true' necromancer would be.

But they do use necromantic spells and abilities, which is definitely not going to sit well with people either way. It is tolerated in war zones, as long as a DK is doing it, but anyone else would definitely not fall under the same deal.

Well I think most living Necromancers could pass as regular mages when forced to mingle with "livies" anyway. Isn't Necromancy a school of magic, making Necromancers highly specialized mages? You can just have them act as mages in daylight, and perform their necromantic duties under the radar.

Perhaps in time they will be accepted as Necromancers, but for now it seems discretion is adviced!

Thelos wrote:Well I think most living Necromancers could pass as regular mages when forced to mingle with "livies" anyway. Isn't Necromancy a school of magic, making Necromancers highly specialized mages? You can just have them act as mages in daylight, and perform their necromantic duties under the radar.

It is indeed. However, it does, generally, leave a visible physical effect. That effect could be mistaken for simply being malnourished and not getting enough sun, though, and can be hid with Illusion spells. Not to mention it probably takes years to start manifesting anyway.

I guess they'll just have to downplay the whole "In death we shall be reborn" angle and the spooky culty tendencies Necromancers tend to have. Honestly the Acolytes of the Cult of the Damned were better cultists than those of the Twilight Hammer. Never drink the punch at their end-of-the-world-party, it has been spiked worse than you can imagine.

Speaking of which...Do you think Kel'Thuzad might still be "alive"? I mean if they can bring any of the Scourge's defeated leaders back, its Kel'Thuzad. They've already done so once, and I do not recall any quest to actually destroy his phylactery. I'd love to see him duke it out with Sylvanas and Bolvar. Undead threeway?

Honestly I'm not at all statisfied with the direction they've taken the Undead in after Wrath. It seems the Forsaken are well on their way to becoming the dominant Undead force, if they aren't the head honchos already. Bolvar is just sitting there. He's even worse than his predecessor. Lich King in name only.

Man. Screw Bolvar and Sylvanas, if anybody deserves to be the next Lich King its good 'oll Kel'Thuzad.

"I always wanted to start my own religion...so I did!"

I'd have to disagree Thelos. They start to resemble the dead after a while, greying hair, brittle or lifeless forms, a rotting stench and pale sagging skin. Then after a longer while than this, they do themselves become undead due to a side-effect of their craft.

We had slain Kel'Thuzad in Naxxramas though you're right about his phylactery not being destroyed in wrath, from an IC standpoint. Maybe that was intended or there may have been some behind the scenes happenings there.

I'm going to stay out of this now though, I personally disagree with Blood Mages, Necromancers and Shadow priests (to a lesser extent) fighting for the Alliance. All roles tend to have a corrupting side effect and I'd doubt by the time they have mastered the craft enough to actually take it into combat with viable results their outlook on who to fight and where they stand would have been completely warped. I also find it hard to accept that in canon Warlocks are tollerated by the Alliance..

All my opinion however, not stating any of it is how others should think. Just given the information and lore we have I find it hard to believe these roles/paths are accepted in lore or IC. However as a cultist player myself I'd have no problem with it ICly, I would however if I was a respected member of the Alliance or the Argent Dawn/Crusade.

On a side note, I see no problem if your order wishes to take advantage of these if they do offer their sword. Surely the Knights of the Ebon Blade wouldn't allow them to join their order though?

Cyrdain wrote:. Just given the information and lore we have I find it hard to believe these roles/paths are accepted in lore or IC.

Had to believe, stupid, unjustified, all of the above? Quite possibly, but these roles/paths have been accepted in the Alliance for gameplay reasons, moreso than actual lore reasons. It may be silly, or stupid, but its a fact that Warlocks and Death Knights at least are accepted in the Alliance. Wether Necromancers are, its up to debate, since it is not an actual class you can roll in game. In this thread though I think we've reached a good strong concensus in that. Necromancers are not accepted by the Alliance. However, they are accepted by Alliance knights ofthe Ebon Blade. Therefore, they can hang with the Knights and serve the alliance indirectly. Just dont expect a warm welcome from the rest of the army, and stay out of sight. Preferably under the protection of the Archeus or the Death Knight tent, if there's going to be one. They'll just have to act like they did in the good old Cult of the Damned days. Covert, only exposing themselves to brothers and sisters.

They'll have to be quite literally kept in the Shadow of the knights. Heck, if you're a living Necromancer that is so far physically corrupted as to look Undead at first glance, you might as well use that to your atvantage and pretend to be a Death Knight. That way you can practise your necromancy in plain sight.

Edit I only just know noticed your second post.

Cyrdain wrote:On a side note, I see no problem if your order wishes to take advantage of these if they do offer their sword. Surely the Knights of the Ebon Blade wouldn't allow them to join their order though?

There are already plenty of Necromancers, living and dead, that are rallied under the Ebon Blade's banner. Necromancy is such an integral part of what Death Knights are that they simply need experienced and knowledgeable Necromancers around. And how many of those are around that aren't allied to either the Forsaken or the Scourge? Not all that many.

Though all Knights are fueled by Necromancy and are able to use some Necromantic magic trough runes and other enhancements, most of them have very limited knowledge about how it works. They were paladins and warriors in life, not scholars of Necromancy. They need Necromancers for maintenance and study to keep their whole operation afloat.

I agree with that thelos, 100%

In all honestly Necromancers may aswell become Death Knights. I'm no expert in Death Knight lore but wouldn't it make more sense? Allowed to practice their art and be tollerated, have the protection of an established organisation such as the Ebon Blade and have others to work with. They'd almost be a new breed of death knights, those extremely versed in the necromantic practices rather than combat. A sort of oposite to how Death Knight are protrayed, to me atleast. Deadly fighters with a side order or necromancy.. Deadly necromancers with a side order of combat training.

I'm sure Necromancers that are still alive and not allied to the Scourge have their own personal reasons for staying alive, otherwise they'd be undead already. Seeking to be reborn in Undeath is very much a Cult of the Damned thing, a religious ideal, the ultimate reward for serving the Lich King. Necromancers that would now seek to join the Knights of the Ebon Blade though are not going to share that ideal, since the Knights actively hunt down anything Scourge-related and would not tolerate one with the ideals of the Cult of the Damned within their own ranks.

Though if by "Knights" you simply mean joining the Knights of the Ebon Blade, without becoming an actual Death Knight, as in, becoming an actual Undead with an actual Runeblade then yes I think it makes a whole damn lot of sense for Necromancers who aren't allied to the Scourge to join the Knights for exactly the reasons you listed. Heck, this is what I was planning for my Necromancer character, before my computer died on me.

Kel'Thuzad originally sought out the Lich King for power and knowledge of Necromancy. If a character is anything like Kel'Thuzad, but has the same kind of hatred for the Scourge and the Forsaken as most humans do, then joining the Knights of the Ebon Blade in Archeus might be the only way for them to properly dedicate themselves to their craft.

It is important though to seperate the religious ideal of the Cult of the Damned, the rebirth into Undeath and the worship of the Lich King, with the actual school of magic that is Necromancy. Necromancy is older than the Cult. You can be a Necromancer without sharing the Cult's ideals.

Just as a reminder, the Death brigade is a part of the SW army, The Ebon Shroud is a circle inside of the Ebon Blade.

Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:Just as a reminder, the Death brigade is a part of the SW army, The Ebon Shroud is a circle inside of the Ebon Blade.

this is what i dislike. having living Necromancers in the Ebon Shroud is all well and good, but the SW army? i still don't see what benefits the Army gets by having such a taboo and possibly corrupting form of magi in its ranks. while warlocks are also iffy in my book, the reason for having them at least makes sense.

Corleth wrote:

Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:Just as a reminder, the Death brigade is a part of the SW army, The Ebon Shroud is a circle inside of the Ebon Blade.

this is what i dislike. having living Necromancers in the Ebon Shroud is all well and good, but the SW army? i still don't see what benefits the Army gets by having such a taboo and possibly corrupting form of magi in its ranks. while warlocks are also iffy in my book, the reason for having them at least makes sense.

What's prodding me alot is the entire fact that once a Death Knight takes upon himself to represent a faction he's no longer allowed to call himself Ebon Blade nor claim to be doing their bidding. As he no longer represent their ideals. But the ones of the Alliance/Horde.

Which pretty much kills everything the Ebon Shroud is... Unless there's been a retcon. But I still place my faith in that there hasn't, considering Koltira and whathisface in Western Plaguelands.

So bottom line, you're Alliance and Alliance alone, not Ebon Blade. Which means Alliance rules apply, always. War included. Hence, necromancers total no-go.

Do correct me if wrong.

Cyrdain wrote:I'd have to disagree Thelos. They start to resemble the dead after a while, greying hair, brittle or lifeless forms, a rotting stench and pale sagging skin. Then after a longer while than this, they do themselves become undead due to a side-effect of their craft.

It takes time though, and you can hide it through magic and other means.

I'm going to stay out of this now though, I personally disagree with Blood Mages, Necromancers and Shadow priests (to a lesser extent) fighting for the Alliance. All roles tend to have a corrupting side effect and I'd doubt by the time they have mastered the craft enough to actually take it into combat with viable results their outlook on who to fight and where they stand would have been completely warped. I also find it hard to accept that in canon Warlocks are tollerated by the Alliance..

I agree. I was actually surprised when I heard Vezullia say that blood magic is okay within the EK. It's always been banned in Kalimdor, so I found it odd to learn it was okay in EK. Same with Shadow priests. Necromancers remain officially banned (aside from DKs), which is good.

Cyrdain wrote:In all honestly Necromancers may aswell become Death Knights. I'm no expert in Death Knight lore but wouldn't it make more sense? Allowed to practice their art and be tollerated, have the protection of an established organisation such as the Ebon Blade and have others to work with. They'd almost be a new breed of death knights, those extremely versed in the necromantic practices rather than combat. A sort of oposite to how Death Knight are protrayed, to me atleast. Deadly fighters with a side order or necromancy.. Deadly necromancers with a side order of combat training.

It might make more sense from a logical standpoint. But there is a lot you lose by becoming undead. I happen to play that 'type' of death knight, as my own character is a skilled caster and necromancer, whom is not so great in physical combat. But she'd rather be living than undead by far.

Not all necromancers want to be undead. In fact, for Drustai, undeath is actually a flawed experiment--a powerful step forwards for conquering the boundaries of life and death sure, but ultimately far from perfect due to how much of life that it gives up.

Faralan wrote:

Corleth wrote:

Lexgrad/Dreth wrote:Just as a reminder, the Death brigade is a part of the SW army, The Ebon Shroud is a circle inside of the Ebon Blade.

this is what i dislike. having living Necromancers in the Ebon Shroud is all well and good, but the SW army? i still don't see what benefits the Army gets by having such a taboo and possibly corrupting form of magi in its ranks. while warlocks are also iffy in my book, the reason for having them at least makes sense.

What's prodding me alot is the entire fact that once a Death Knight takes upon himself to represent a faction he's no longer allowed to call himself Ebon Blade nor claim to be doing their bidding. As he no longer represent their ideals. But the ones of the Alliance/Horde.

Which pretty much kills everything the Ebon Shroud is... Unless there's been a retcon. But I still place my faith in that there hasn't, considering Koltira and whathisface in Western Plaguelands.

So bottom line, you're Alliance and Alliance alone, not Ebon Blade. Which means Alliance rules apply, always. War included. Hence, necromancers total no-go.

Do correct me if wrong.

This is incorrect. Thassarian and Koltira are both still considered members of the Ebon Blade even though they both have been part of their respective factions, too. The players, themselves, are part of the Ebon Blade even though they are part of their respective factions right from the start.

"Vengeance is at hand, . Koltira aids the Horde upon the gunship Orgrim's Hammer, while Thassarian assists the Alliance aboard the Skybreaker. The Ebon Blade will soon wash over Icecrown and leave the armies of the Lich King in ruin." -Highlord Darion Mograine

I doubt Mograine would speak of Koltira and Thassarian in such a manner if they were traitors to the organization. He very much seems to include their service as part and parcel of the Ebon Blade's quest to wash over Icecrown.

The Ebon Blade works similar to the Earthen Ring and the Cenarion Circle. The faction itself is neutral, but not every member might be. Their members can be part of either faction, so long as they agree to put aside their differences when operating on behalf of the organization.

As Dru says. Lex does have Respect for Ebon Knights on the Horde side. He will still kill them and drain their Soulblades but it will be with a large degree of respect. Unless it is personal.